Is it rape?

[Netzach]

It's really really contextual. I'm in a relationship where rape doesn't exist between us, but if I said "I want you to miss your daughter's next basketball game" he'd probably tell me to screw myself. (Not that I would - want him to miss it, that is, screwing myself is never a problem)

Everyone's "beyond the pale" looks different.

Not a lot of help I know, but that's how I see it.

 

[JMohegan]

Everyone preaches safe, sane, and consensual when it comes to BDSM and D/s and whatnot. Can a sub/slave withdraw consent because they aren't in the mood, they aren't enjoying something anymore, or they don't like something? If they say "no, i don't want to" when it comes to sex but the Dom proceeds, is that rape? What would you do (as a Dom) if a sub/slave decided to withdraw consent by saying they really didn't want to do what was asked and they were serious about it?

A quick note to any inexperienced or impressionable Doms on the board: Legally, this *is* rape. Be sure to keep that in mind and pick your subjects accordingly.



A quick note to any inexperienced or impressionable subs on the board: This is either a grotesque violation of the safeword concept (in which case I would urge you to kick his ass to the curb as soon as possible) or it is edgeplay. And whether or not you are suited for a particular type of edgeplay has absolutely *nothing* to do with the level of your love and devotion to your Dom. Instead, it has everything to do with your psychological makeup and capacity or appreciation for this type of encounter.



A quick note to CutieMouse: Bullseye. "Regardless, I would hope flirting with this particularly edgy activity (consent even within a non-consensual situation), to be something that occurs within the confines of a firmly established, very very very committed, long term, know each other psychologically inside and out, relationship." Indeed.

Of course, as adults everyone reading this thread is entitled to make their own choices and take their own risks, with or without a longstanding relationship. Go right ahead.

But for God's sake, people. Don't do this with romanticized visions of the ultimate submission floating around in your heads.

If you are going to do this, at least do it with your eyes open as to the extremely negative consequences that may ensue, on either or both sides of the coin.



A quick note to Rosco Rathbone: LOL. That really did make me grin.

 

[Kailey_86]

i've been thinking about this a little more and trying to understand where cat is coming from. What she said makes sense to me. i used to say that i was a slave and i would give consent to anything and everything. i realize that i am only a sub right now with the potential to be a slave. This is important to know because i believe that a sub is allowed to withdraw consent whenever she pleases but there better be a good reason for it.

i would say that there are 3 steps to a TPE relationship. Maybe it isn't as simple as this but....whatever. The way i think of it is that a couple gets together and sees if they are compatible. To me, this just looks like dating with a small power exchange maybe.

Then the sub consents to being a sub after having a discussion on limits, likes, and dislikes. This is where rape might come into play if she refuses to have sex and the Dom proceeds anyway. This is also true for the "dating step." The power exchange is kicked up a notch for subs though.

Finally, when the couple believes that they are meant for each other and the sub believes that she can really go into a TPE relationship, she consents to being a slave. Being a slave in my mind is a big deal. After that, the sub cannot withdraw consent. In all reality she still can but both parties agree in the beginning that this won't happen.

This is the way i see it anyway. This seems to be what J and i have agreed on. The way you do things might be very different. If i were a slave, i wouldn't have a choice. Right now i am a sub but i haven't withdrawn consent or called a safeword yet. i've put up with things i don't like. It didn't really matter though. i was still happy because my Dom was pleased with me.

 

[rosco rathbone]

[

A quick note to Rosco Rathbone: LOL. That really did make me grin.

Eh, someone gets it.

 

[Bob Sharpe]

Everyone preaches safe, sane, and consensual when it comes to BDSM and D/s and whatnot. Can a sub/slave withdraw consent because they aren't in the mood, they aren't enjoying something anymore, or they don't like something? If they say "no, i don't want to" when it comes to sex but the Dom proceeds, is that rape? What would you do (as a Dom) if a sub/slave decided to withdraw consent by saying they really didn't want to do what was asked and they were serious about it?

As a Dom, I can only speak for myself, and my relationship with my slut, we have "safewords" which indicate limits, some may say being a dom is about doing what you want, when you want, my slut & I prefer a two-way street approach. Yes she is raped, how & when I see fit, but within the parameters of our relationship.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Can a sub/slave withdraw consent

They are a human being. Yes, they can withdraw consent.

If they say "no, i don't want to" when it comes to sex but the Dom proceeds, is that rape?

If that is an agreed upon way of signalling the withdrawal of consent, then yes, it becomes a prosecutable criminal act at that point. The act may be called rape, or criminal sexual assault or something else depending upon the jurisdiction that it occurs in.

As someone with many years of law enforcement experience and dealing with the criminal court system, catalina's opinion not withstanding, I can tell you that a defense argument that the defendant still had consent, or a reasonable belief they had consent, is a matter for the jury to decide, and that can be a tough sell in a court of law to a bunch of vanilla jurors.

It isn't my opinion or cat's that matters though. It's what A) the police believe, B) the prosecutor believes they can prove, and C) who the jury believes and what message they want to send home.

If there is no law enforcement involvement, it may still be an issue that the jury of our peers (our BDSM/Leather/Master-slave/whatever communities) believe. I think all of us invovled in local communities know a person or three who've had their reputations turned into mud because of withdrawal of consent issues and going too far.

What would you do (as a Dom) if a sub/slave decided to withdraw consent by saying they really didn't want to do what was asked and they were serious about it?

Try to find out what the real problem was. If the submissive/slave was not forthcoming with what the real issue was, then I think I would have to re-evaluate the relationship, with a very high probability of terminating the PE realtionship.

 

[Auraka6669]

Break it down. Simple.

If the relationship in question has consent. Then it's only natural that it can ebb and flow.

If the relationship in question is one that consent was given up long ago... then thats it. You're fucked sunshine.

It boils down to common sense though. In your relationship, you should know. And if you don't. Is this a relationship you want to be in?

 

[HottieMama]

You're fucked sunshine.

Quite literally, actually.




I'm sorry. I'm so fucking giddy today I think I'm delirious.

 

[Penalt]

Dictionary definition:

Main Entry: rape
Function: noun
1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2 : unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent -




For our purposes the part "against the will" is the important one. Even in rape scenes there is still the underlying knowledge that if the sub says,"Hold, enough!" (or equivilant via safewords, etc.) that the Dom(me) will stop. Violation of that is a breaking of trust and is, to my eyes, rape. In a BDSM relationship the former may actually be a worse crime than the latter.

Subs TRUST Dom(me)s. That trust is a necessary component. Without it that trust and that consent BDSM pretty much is just rape and torture. With that consent BDSM is a joining in a search for fulfilment and completeness. It is a journey not a destination. Breaking that trust is plowing the journey into a brick wall and splattering it across the highway of life. Those are my thoughts on this.

 

[incubus'_sub]

I've just read this thread very quickly & they are all good answers but what about Doms being able to trust subs as well?

As we know, from this site as well as real life, there are scores of silly little girls who get carried away with the slave/sub thing & the excitement of it all, jump in the deep end & then find themselves in over their vacant heads.

Doms are human too, they make mistakes believing they have consent - oohhh, I love you, you can do anything blah blah blah, then suddenly the sub is screaming rape. Not fair in my mind.

If a prospective sub is defining the word rape, particularly in the D/s world, before any action or at the beginning of a relationship, said Dom should be the one running away as fast as possible.

Real rape is a serious issue.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I've just read this thread very quickly & they are all good answers but what about Doms being able to trust subs as well?

As we know, from this site as well as real life, there are scores of silly little girls who get carried away with the slave/sub thing & the excitement of it all, jump in the deep end & then find themselves in over their vacant heads.

Doms are human too, they make mistakes believing they have consent - oohhh, I love you, you can do anything blah blah blah, then suddenly the sub is screaming rape. Not fair in my mind.

If a prospective sub is defining the word rape, particularly in the D/s world, before any action or at the beginning of a relationship, said Dom should be the one running away as fast as possible.

Real rape is a serious issue.

I just love the way you say things sometimes...I'm with you here 100%.

Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

I've just read this thread very quickly & they are all good answers but what about Doms being able to trust subs as well?

As we know, from this site as well as real life, there are scores of silly little girls who get carried away with the slave/sub thing & the excitement of it all, jump in the deep end & then find themselves in over their vacant heads.

Doms are human too, they make mistakes believing they have consent - oohhh, I love you, you can do anything blah blah blah, then suddenly the sub is screaming rape. Not fair in my mind.

If a prospective sub is defining the word rape, particularly in the D/s world, before any action or at the beginning of a relationship, said Dom should be the one running away as fast as possible.

Real rape is a serious issue.

This is why I pointed out I hope such things would be done within a really rock solid long term relationship...

(Speaking for myself) I can wrap my mind around it being really really hot; I can equally recognise it could possibly screw with my head, and cause unexpected fallout. I don't define "unexpected fallout" as legal action- I'd have a hard time crying "rape" on a guy just because he fulfilled a desire; however, I do recognise the risks that fulfilling such an interest could trigger bigger (to me) issues - trust, safety fears, etc, and would hope such an activity wouldn't occur with someone who wasn't prepared to duct tape me back together, emotionally. (Some days being practical and kinky at the same time, really really sucks. )

 

[brioche]

I decided to remove my post as it is more of a depressed rambling than a contribution to the discussion. (I'm sick at the moment). However I hate it when there are blank posts so I thought I'd explain why.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You talk about people thinking that they can enter a relationship and then feeling that they can withdraw consent somewhere down the road. Maybe people are moving to quickly but it doesn't mean that they aren't taking the D/s dynamic seriously. It means that our world has changed. Look at how many divorces there are these days. People sometimes just grow apart. The reality is that the subs CAN withdraw consent whenever they want. It doesn't mean they are any less real than you or someone else who stays in the relationship forever.

I don't think it is about people moving too quickly, though for many that is part of the problem, but for me what I think the real problem is, is they just don't take the whole thing seriously enough beyond the 'I want to get my rocks off cause this sounds so cool' stage, so no, I don't see them as taking it seriously, just temporarily interesting and lust provoking. An interesting thing I came across with many Doms I met before I met F were the ones who were very experienced and serious about their D/s, were not inclined to bother with subs who were interested in D/s for the sexual thrills they could get...in their opinion, basing D/s primarily on what lies between the thighs was a recipe for disaster and I tend to agree. I am not particularly interested in comparing it to divorce rates in conventional mainstream relationships as they are not D/s and so do not operate on the same plane as a D/s oriented one IMHO. People will always change throughout their lives regardless of their sexual orientation or relationship model, but the basics remain and that is why it is vital to know yourself and your partner well, and take into consideration that those changes will happen.

There was a time when people did manage to maintain a deep relationship through those changes, supported and worked as a couple, and remained together not because they had to but because they cared and loved each other just as much if not more than when they began....then came quick and easy divorce and people didn't take as much time getting to know each other or what they were wanting before commitment. LOL, I once had someone nearly get me into marriage until at the last minute in casual conversation he said that if it didn't work at any point divorce was an easy option....figured he just wasn't committed or ready and cut him loose immediately...and this is the attitude I see coming from many PYL's and pyl's entering a relationship....they are not making a full commitment, they are keeping one foot on the floor so to speak 'just in case', and which IMHO not only means they don't hold much hope for the future success, but also that they are not really interested in working out any problems that might arise....how can a relationship based on that thought process hope to survive? It's not a relationship IMO.

Now onto the D/s element....subs have the right to withdraw consent if that is in the terms of the relationship. I don't see it has anything to do with making them better or worse or more real than what I have in a relationship, just a choice, and one I think is more suited to the majority of people entering D/s.

i don't understand your thinking when it comes to the sub's happiness. The Dom shouldn't necessarily cater to the sub's needs, as i said, but he should care whether or not she is happy. If he doesn't, it's not a real relationship IMO. A couple, whether it be D/s or vanilla, should care about each other's happiness. If a sub ends up being absolutely miserable in the relationship, why the hell should she stay? She isn't going to want to put any effort into serving her Dom if she is unhappy. It is in her Dom's best interest to let her go. This doesn't mean that they aren't taking it seriously though.

It is not a real relationship in your understanding of what a relationship is, but that does not make it not a real relationship for those who operate on a different set of needs to you. Part of a PYL caring about their sub and the sub's happiness can very well come down to their not focusing on what makes the sub happy, or whether the sub is happy. It once again comes down to the terms of the relationship, and those within it. I am aware ours is not a popular model and many like to point out that by law those in similar relationship models are free to leave anytime they want if they decide they are not happy or just want to move on, but I didn't enter into it thinking it was a relationship guided by mainstream law, and that I could and would turn to the law for backup to get my own way....let's face it, much of what we in BDSM do is not or may soon not be sanctioned by the law as it is so why pull out that card when the going gets tough when those involved were quite happy to operate outside lawful guidelines when all was going picture perfect?


If he chose to decide he was no longer happy and interested in maintaining the relationship, I could see that as far more acceptable than a sub making that decision simply based on the basic idea of TPE meaning the PYL is the won who maintains the power in the relationship, not the pyl. It may be quite feasible that though a pyl is not happy with the way things are, that the PYL may choose to continue and be quite happy to do so, in some cases even reaching a higher level of satisfaction and/or happiness than when all was peachey. This is not a mainstream based world where things are done and felt the same with a ittle kink thrown in for excitement...it is a whole different way of being for many which does not strongly resemble the mainstream ideal for happiness and harmony. If it did why would we not just remain in the vanilla world where life is less complicated and not in danger of attracting disapproval or legal problems?

As to taking it seriously, once again I don't agree. If the terms are that it is TPE with full consent being given and not possible to revoke, then to decide one day you want out because it isn't all you thought it would be is a sign you didn't necessarily take the initial agreement seriously and were quite possibly comforting yourself with the fact there was an invisible clause in the mind of the sub meaning they could just change their mind. It is about making that commitment to submit no matter what, not no matter what until you decide you don't want to anymore. For that reason I think it is a decision that should not only be taken only after lots of thought and discussion, not to mention depth of knowledge about yourself and your needs, but also one that can use a lot of previous adult life experience to back that decision.

I do not think it is particularly healthy to make such a commitment when you have moved from adolescence into the adult world and have very little experience of the world as an adult and standing on your own two feet. Too often, a younger, inexperienced person can be attracted to the idea out of fear of facing the world on their own and think letting someone else do it for them is a safer alternative...sort of getting someone to take the place of their parent in terms of making the decisons, taking responsibility etc., which I do not think is a healthy or fair basis for the decision. Quite often as a person goes through their 20,s and even early 30's, they will face things which will equip them with the knowledge to not only make a decision based on desire and not desperation or fear, but also equip them with skills to know if it is for them and to better serve the one they commit to. It is only my opinion, but is also based on much of what I have seen since becoming involved in BDSM as a lifestyle. At the expense of reverting to mainstream marriage references, it remeinds me of the old saying 'marry in haste, repent at leisure'.....the analogy can often be much the same for those who are dazzled by the lure of BDSM without taking the time to fully think their actions through in advance.

Catalina

 

[subtleone]

Interesting question K...
When I first married there was no such thing as marital rape, that is to say once you signed the marriage certificate you were signing away all consent issues - the law has changed fairly recently but I have yet to hear tale of a a case won that has not involved an abusive relationship of some description...I think in marriage (and here I am drawing a comparison to a D/s relationship I guess) It is hard to prove that you said no that particular time.

 

[Kailey_86]

Catalina, thank you for explaining all of that in more depth. i understand a little better now and i agree with you on most of it.

 

[Bob Sharpe]

Rape

May I ask you, are you owned & Married, or just owned ?

 

[liberatedslave]

TPE is a whole different discussion when it comes to consent. I'm divided in that I would never cry rape if I had embarked on a TPE. I know though that I wouldn't personally enter a TPE unless I believed my needs & wishes would be considered & at my Sir's discretion, respected to ensure that I never suffered the psychological trauma of 'rape.' Outside of TPE I'm with Fury - if there's an agreed safeword it must always be respected by the PYL. Its purpose is to protect both parties from exactly this issue.

 

[Bob Sharpe]

Ls

I agree with everything said above, My wife (slut) & I have enjoyed 26 years of marriage, with two grown up kids, three granchildren, but have enjoyed, a master slut, slave whore, anyway you like to call it relationship, trust and knowing each other plays a big part, the safeword, plays a big part also, but there are many ways to enjoy a relationship.

 

[Kailey_86]

May I ask you, are you owned & Married, or just owned ?

Me? i'm not married but i am owned. i am not in a TPE with my Dom as of yet. i am his submissive.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Everyone preaches safe, sane, and consensual when it comes to BDSM and D/s and whatnot. Can a sub/slave withdraw consent because they aren't in the mood, they aren't enjoying something anymore, or they don't like something? If they say "no, i don't want to" when it comes to sex but the Dom proceeds, is that rape? What would you do (as a Dom) if a sub/slave decided to withdraw consent by saying they really didn't want to do what was asked and they were serious about it?

first, not all of us preach or live by SSC. that said, i can't speak knowledgeably on what is or isn't appropriate in a non-ownership D/s relationship. i suppose whatever the two have negotiated and committed to. but as a slave i can say that there is no such thing as rape in this relationship. because rape is defined as using someone sexually against their will, and as slave my "will" is a moot point, nothing he could do to me could ever be considered rape, at least in our eyes. the law may feel differently, but the law does not define us or our relationship. the law also would not be there in time to rescue me if i ever became psychotic enough to try and cry rape to some outsider.

 

[sweetmelissa087]

Everyone preaches safe, sane, and consensual when it comes to BDSM and D/s and whatnot. Can a sub/slave withdraw consent because they aren't in the mood, they aren't enjoying something anymore, or they don't like something? If they say "no, i don't want to" when it comes to sex but the Dom proceeds, is that rape? What would you do (as a Dom) if a sub/slave decided to withdraw consent by saying they really didn't want to do what was asked and they were serious about it?

I'm really glad this question has been brought up, because I've wondered it myself. Especially during training, nerves can take over and I needed to stop and talk - and when I said no, I really did MEAN no, and we spoke about it but my fears were basically pushed aside as nerves and nothing else. But I ultimately felt like there could be danger involved if I continued to disagree, so I went along with it. While I do feel like it was a slight violation, the line is sometimes so thin and when a person (Master, etc) is telling you one thing and you lack enough knowledge.. it was hard for me to decipher what was best for me and what was better for the situation. But I'm really, really glad that this issue has been brought to the attention because I've always wondered about a specific time when I asked myself this question..

 

[sweetmelissa087]

Dictionary definition:

Main Entry: rape
Function: noun
1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2 : unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent -




For our purposes the part "against the will" is the important one. Even in rape scenes there is still the underlying knowledge that if the sub says,"Hold, enough!" (or equivilant via safewords, etc.) that the Dom(me) will stop. Violation of that is a breaking of trust and is, to my eyes, rape. In a BDSM relationship the former may actually be a worse crime than the latter.

Subs TRUST Dom(me)s. That trust is a necessary component. Without it that trust and that consent BDSM pretty much is just rape and torture. With that consent BDSM is a joining in a search for fulfilment and completeness. It is a journey not a destination. Breaking that trust is plowing the journey into a brick wall and splattering it across the highway of life. Those are my thoughts on this.

I do believe that most Doms are safe and trustworthy, but I know of some that are just horrible people and use their knowledge to fool and trick girls - and sometimes it has nothing to do with her knowledge of it all (or lack thereof). I spent a lot of time talking to different Doms and their submissives before I decided to embark on my own journey and unfortunately, wound up with someone who I ultimately could not rely on in the end. Especially because he preached one thing but when it came down to it, didn't practice it in the least. So I completely agree with what you're saying. Trust is most definitely the most important thing I value in any relationship - but *especially* a D/s relationship.

 

[Inconsequential]

the law may feel differently, but the law does not define us or our relationship. the law also would not be there in time to rescue me if i ever became psychotic enough to try and cry rape to some outsider.

It sounds like you've been in a TPE a very long time, you are very devoted to your submission. Statements like that set off red flags for me, but I have been in the lifestyle a very long time myself and I'm a very different person.