Is it really safe, sane, and consensual?

[Johnny Mayberry]

Sometimes, I think that some(not all) married women look to cheat in a submissive setting because they don't have to take full responsibility for their horrible dishonesty and lack of ethics. It is 'ok' for them to destroy a relationship, because their online 'Master'(who deserves nothing but disgust and contempt, IMO) tells them to, and they don't have to face up to the reality. That reality, of course, being that they are reprehensible human beings who trample on concepts like fidelity and honesty, out of their own self-centered desires.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Sometimes, I think that some(not all) married women look to cheat in a submissive setting because they don't have to take full responsibility for their horrible dishonesty and lack of ethics. It is 'ok' for them to destroy a relationship, because their online 'Master'(who deserves nothing but disgust and contempt, IMO) tells them to, and they don't have to face up to the reality. That reality, of course, being that they are reprehensible human beings who trample on concepts like fidelity and honesty, out of their own self-centered desires.

I always question the authenticity of a dominant who is happy to accept this situation as in my experience the committed D's who were in the lifestyle for what it offered and not to exploit others would never have any part of these situations seeing them as a sign of dishonesty which not surprisingly was a strong element they insisted on being existant in the relationship.

C

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I always question the authenticity of a dominant who is happy to accept this situation as in my experience the committed D's who were in the lifestyle for what it offered and not to exploit others would never have any part of these situations seeing them as a sign of dishonesty which not surprisingly was a strong element they insisted on being existant in the relationship.

C

Honesty...what a novel concept in a D/s relationship, huh?

 

[Desdemona]

I try not to make blanket generalizations about people when I don't know them or their situations. I agree, as a general principal, that cheating is dishonest. I also agree that honesty should be the cornerstone of any relationship. However, I really don't think cheating has anything to do with SSC.

 

[lady-kat]

edited out, more or less.....

Johnny and Catalina.
i guess we will have to agree to disagree. i do own my own actions, and i will own my private pain.... as someone else pointed out, when strangers on a porn board know more about a person's marriage, then than the 2 parties involved....there is a serious problem (paraphrasing)

as to that. i will agree....

 

[Netzach]

Don't like someone's ethics?

Don't play with them. Don't fuck them. You are not going to convince them of the error of their ways or other people of their inherent worthlessness or untrustworthiness.

I have no problem being compassionate towards towards a married person coming to a realization late in life and what they may choose to do with that.

I'm not compassionate with someone who's out for kicks and could care less.

I think I'm capable of making that assessment and I prefer to be left the right to make that assessment based on what I see from an individual.

I certainly don't want some expanded definition of SSC shoved on me based on some people's feelings about the instution of marriage.

 

[Croctden]

I'll stake a claim for ignorance

I have considerable trouble with the claim that someone cheating on their SO has a great love for them. If you're cheating for whatever reason you're selfishly putting your wants over your partners. I'm far from an angel, but I'd never cheat, if I love someone I'm going to look out for them. Saying it's a white lie, that they'll never find out and get hurt does not change the fact you're basically using them.

 

[InnerDarkness]

edited out, more or less.....

Johnny and Catalina.
i guess we will have to agree to disagree. i do own my own actions, and i will own my private pain.... as someone else pointed out, when strangers on a porn board know more about a person's marriage, then than the 2 parties involved....there is a serious problem (paraphrasing)

as to that. i will agree....

I am so on your side lady-kat...

I am choosing my words carefully here because I know this is an emotionally charged day for me today. You see....I have just spent the last 3 days "cheating". *gasp*

My husband flew out to see his family the 28th, a man I met online flew in on July 2nd, he left today and hubby comes home tomorrow.

This is my life. I am comfortable with my decisions, and I think there is a little more to most stories (especially like me...submisive women fucking around on their vanilla husbands) than some care to realize or take into consideration.

What if the marriage was failing before anything happened elsewhere? What if every form of communication with the spouse was tried? What if I felt a part of me was missing every day? Needs constantly unmet? What if this new love and chance at happiness was sudden and unplanned and comes in the wake of an impending divorce in the first place....who really gives a fuck?!?

It is all relative! Doesn't everyone deserve happiness? Do I have to really starve myself of wanted/needed love until I can fully separate myself from my previous relationship?

 

[WriterDom]

Do I have to really starve myself of wanted/needed love until I can fully separate myself from my previous relationship?

Is there not a period of healing before you fuck your fuck buddy? Not that there is anything wrong with fucking a fuck buddy. But you could have waited till the divorce was final.

 

[InnerDarkness]

Is there not a period of healing before you fuck your fuck buddy? Not that there is anything wrong with fucking a fuck buddy. But you could have waited till the divorce was final.

i suppose there could be and maybe should be a period for healing, but maybe I just havent fully accepted what I am doing yet. Denial comes in handy for a lot of things, including avoiding the reality of your situation. I fully realize this is also partly because I am selfish, yes...I will not deny that.

Maybe I am not mourning yet because nothing has been lost yet.

As long as I stay honest with myself about what I am doing...and stay honest with not only my new love, but also my departing one...isn't that all that matters?

Allows me to sleep at night anyway.

 

[WriterDom]

Originally posted by

As long as I stay honest with myself about what I am doing...and stay honest with not only my new love, but also my departing one...isn't that all that matters?

Allows me to sleep at night anyway. [/B]

sleep well.

 

[lady-kat]

This is my life. I am comfortable with my decisions, and I think there is a little more to most stories (especially like me...submisive women fucking around on their vanilla husbands) than some care to realize or take into consideration.

What if the marriage was failing before anything happened elsewhere? What if every form of communication with the spouse was tried? What if I felt a part of me was missing every day? Needs constantly unmet? What if this new love and chance at happiness was sudden and unplanned and comes in the wake of an impending divorce in the first place....who really gives a fuck?!?

It is all relative! Doesn't everyone deserve happiness? Do I have to really starve myself of wanted/needed love until I can fully separate myself from my previous relationship?

InnerDarkness.
except for the part about the impending divorce, you could have been writing about my life.....

i understand your desire for happiness.... smile.... and i understand much about starving for love.

i have waited almost ten years. until the understanding came that my marriage was broken, and not ever fixable...... but we remain friends of a sort. and my affection for him is genuine... and.... i wish him no hurt.

so i will go the cloak and dagger route... and cherish the time i will, godwilling, someday spend with my online friend...

life IS short, and it is never known how long is given us... i will snatch whatever brief happiness i can... and i will sleep well at night too....

 

[Pure]

Francisco said,


In the end most of the relationships where cheating happens eventually break up. And I am not talking here about the drunken wife or husband who on a bachelors/shower party does something they rather wish they had not done. I am also not talking here about open relationships where both partners are aware of what the other is doing and is perfectly happy with it. No we are talking here about continuos cheating with one or several different partners. Those relationships are doomed to end and most of those end very badly.

First, are we agreed that the cheating question, including in SM relationships, is NOT covered by "Safe Sane Consensual", which deals with the parties having the SM sex.?

Let's look at what Catalina said,
//I always question the authenticity of a dominant who is happy to accept this situation as in my experience the committed D's who were in the lifestyle for what it offered and not to exploit others would never have any part of these situations seeing them as a sign of dishonesty which not surprisingly was a strong element they insisted on being existant in the relationship. //

Well, ok, the dom/me 'authenticity' may be dubious. They may be countenancing the 'sub's' lying. Surely that dom/me can, however be 'safe sane consensual." Those words leave out lots, _if you're listing ingredients of a successful relationship_. "Loving" "honest" "constant" "having a good sense of humor." I don't think the SSC was ever intended to capture the core of a successful relationship. Do You?

Returning to Francisco:

Suppose for the sake of argument, what you say is true. It does not follow that cheating causes break ups. It's often a sign of a poor state of things. Are you making a causal claim, though; that cheating has an effect which is destructive and 'shortening' of the span of a marriage? It seems so. Am I correct?

BUT, I just don't think it's true that continuous cheating causes breakups. That claim ignores culture. A friend in Hong Kong has a dad whose cheated and kept a mistress his whole married life. Many cultures countenance 'continuous' cheating. In our cultures, it's hardly UN common. Read the bios of artists and poets and actors. E.g., Dylan Thomas. The 'long suffering spouse' is not uncommon.

Ah, but look at actors, you may say. They cheat, fight, divorce.
Exactly. What is the base line, i.e., the expectancy of the life of the marriage? Let's say it's three years for young hollywooders. So it would not be sufficient to show cheating preceded that end in year three. If you're making a causal claim, it has to be that the cheating caused it to end in year two, i.e., to shorten the expected duration. That's by no means clear.

Yes, I'm familiar with cases where 'discovery' of long affairs produced a blow up and a divorce. I'm by no means sure that's 'the rule.' Firstly, there may not be a sharp moment of discovery; it gradually dawns on a partner what's happening, and
*often they don't want to know any more.* If it's not 'flung in their face', they can live with it.

Of course there may be no discovery at all, and hence often, no ending, unless the _cheating partner_ wants out.

I enjoyed the literate postings of both of you. I will return to the main issue in a subsequent post, but this 'fact' seems to be one you rely on in justifying your condemnation of cheating.

Best,

J.

 

[MissTaken]

Interesting thread and a topic that often gets heated as we all have experiences and beliefs that lead us to come to our own conclusion.

I would suggest that "cheating" is seldom the cause of the break up, but that in situations wherein in "cheating" is long term and continuous and yes, in our generally monogomous culture, cheating leads to the break up. If one is spending time and energy building a relationship outside of their primary relationship, how do they have time to look hard at their home/relationship and do the work necessary to keep it together, if that is possible or desirable. And if it is not possible or desirable, then perhaps, dissolving the relationship is best for all concerned.

I would also submit that in my own professional experience when one partner is so unhappy they are looking outside the relationship for fulfillment, the other partner is likely also, to be unhappy. And again, cheating is often a red flag indicating something bigger is going on in the relationship, rather than the entire reason for a break up.

However, there are people who would say, "I can tolerate anything but infidelity." I often wonder if these people have had to tolerate anything at all.

I am not an advocate for infidelity, but do advocate tolerance and that people make the best choices they can for themselves and their families.

I also advocate for "breathing space" between relationships. Take some time to know who you are as an individual as opposed to who you are as part of a couple. Then, you are more likely to have your needs met in future relationships. Knowing what you need is the best first step to starting over.

Now, this is all my own fluff and opinion and is not intended to pass judgement on anyone. I, like all of you here, have my own relationship history and my opinions are jaded by that.

As long as you are happy with yourself, there is no problem, no debate.

 

[Netzach]

Interesting.

"I went to this bachelor party, drunken orgy, wine tasting, bar mitzvah (insert fucntion)and boy did I fuck up"

versus:

"I'm unhappy, I've needed this for a long time, and we've talked about it, and he just made fun of me for wanting it, or got scared and changed the subject for the 1000th time, I can't do this anymore..."

I find scenario B FAR more respectable, FAR more worthy of compassion. Situation A means the person is just a dolt, immature, and a follower. I'd be much less likely to trust them with anything important, yet we treat that "cheating" scenario as one of those boys will be boys inevitable things.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Pure,

I could debate the issue of a Dom/me becoming involved as being an issue to do with safe, sane, consensual on a couple of points, not the least the one where the third, unsuspecting party does find out in an unpleasant way, and/or after the fact, and though misguided in their actions, takes matters into their own hands and someone ends up dead or close to it.....and this is not an unusual occurance. So although it is not directly part of the SM practice, it is part of responsibility in terms of 'safe' at the least.

I will let F answer the points directed to his post, but would add on my own violition that though you may have a friend whose father has had a wife and mistress for years in Hong Kong, that is a recognised and accepted part of life in that culture, as in some other cultures. Though it is done a lot in places like USA, UK, Canada, and Australia, I would argue it is not an accepted part of culture, especially for women, nor is it a situation where the mistress is respected and treated in a specific manner as in Hong Kong and some Mediterranean cultures. Yes, men do it, and often their buddies pat them on the back for it, but it is not a situation where it is a part of the culture, and not necessarily unjudged.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

ID,

I apologise for any difficulty our posts here may have caused you emotionally or otherwise. Though you may see what you have just experienced as cheating, and to some it is, it is also not in the sense of what the discussion was referring to. You have told your husband before this about your needs and wants and view of the marriage, and you have been under no illusions you might continue the marriage, so though you did not tell him what was planned for the last few days, he may have suspected, but either way it is not likely to knock his socks off with shock and disbelief, nor is it a pattern you have been hiding in for months or years.

And yes, each situation, each person is different, and while my concerns are usually safety focused, both physically and emotionally, it is the call of the person who is contemplating their future to decide what is best for them. In your circumstance, though you hint at denial on one level, on another you are well aware, and have taken steps to try and minimise fallout for both you and your partner, and from the way you have spoken in the threads of this forum, you have in a large part begun the process of accepting your marriage is over and making plans for your future separate from your spousal SO.

IMHO it is usually better in all ways to wait until one relationship is ended and dealt with, but everyone is human, and is so being we often react to the moment and emotions more than with our heads. Beginning another relationship rarely just happens, especially online, as for it to begin one has to leave the emotional self open and receptive to another in an intimate relationship sense. Have been there and though it is easy to think it just happened alone, it doesn't.....our unhappiness, dissatisfaction, frustration, and hurt fools us into letting down our guard and sometimes even inviting in someone who can seemingly give us those things we are missing.

While sometimes that works and the other is genuine, often the problem in that relationship then becomes the guilt which we squashed and buried initially until it comes up and bites us after all the excitement and tension of ending a relationship is over and the new one begins to relax into a pattern. Outcome? Another relationship in difficulty and more hurt and confusion. Added to that is the knowledge our actions have hurt someone we once cared for deeply enough to marry, as well as ourselves.

Catalina

 

[Master Bertch]

My thoughts

I have read many posts here and feel a need to add my two cents.
The BDSM lifestyle seems to be very accepting of multiple subs/slaves, Dom/mes/Masters. People seem very accepting of one Master having more than one sub at a time. I also read many posts where subs admit to having more than one Master/Dom/me/partner. The lifestyle seems to be very tolerant and acceptance to some degree of promiscuity. Why then are people who are married condemned if they step outside of a marriage to satisfy certain needs?
You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't play with miscelaneous partners and then be up in arms about someone who strays outside of a relationship. Think about the things you do before you jump down somebody else's throat.

 

[Master Bertch]

To clarify

My thoughts don't reflect on everybody out there. Just those who partake in multiple partners.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: To clarify

My thoughts don't reflect on everybody out there. Just those who partake in multiple partners.

I guess for me one of the main differences between these situations is the deception factor. In BDSM, multiple relationships are usually known about by all parties involved, and discussed before hand in some fashion, whether it being a given before committing to the primary relationship, or something they agree to at some point in the relationship. There are those that will say a D has the right to take or use others, and theoretically this is correct, but most will not enforce that right if they know it will damage their significant other in some way.

On the other hand, what was being discussed here was a married person, unhappy or dissatisfied in some way with their SO, (ie. the one in the primary relationship), going out and becoming involved with someone in BDSM without the knowledge of their SO with whom they have a prior commitment. Not a one night stand etc., but a relationship on a regular basis or several without the consent or knowledge of the SO who many feel has a right to know.

So you see while one situation is open and tries to minimise casualties, the other is cloak and dagger as the term was used, and does little or nothing to minimise or avoid hurt at the very least to another.

Catalina

 

[InnerDarkness]

I was not hurt personally by anything said here

This is, afterall, a forum and everyone is here to express their opinions on the subject. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in as well.

I suppose that if I were being completely deceptive with my husband, I would feel a bit different, but unlike some...those this thread might have been aimed at...I haven't been.

 

[Master Bertch]

Re: Re: To clarify

I guess for me one of the main differences between these situations is the deception factor. In BDSM, multiple relationships are usually known about by all parties involved, and discussed before hand in some fashion, whether it being a given before committing to the primary relationship, or something they agree to at some point in the relationship. There are those that will say a D has the right to take or use others, and theoretically this is correct, but most will not enforce that right if they know it will damage their significant other in some way.
...
So you see while one situation is open and tries to minimise casualties, the other is cloak and dagger as the term was used, and does little or nothing to minimise or avoid hurt at the very least to another.

Catalina

A very intelligent response. I appreciate your input very much. My so/sub and I have agreed that W/we are exclusive/monogamous. It's better for U/us. I just don't get the whole poly-amorous aspect being widely accepted. I agree with you, deception isn't the best way, but each situation needs to be handled individually. I personally don't see a problem with pursuing another love-interest if the current relationship is over. It can be complicated, but it is achievable.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Can see why it would be seen as thread topics being aimed at certain people, and sometimes they are no matter how right or wrong that maybe, but I think often it is more a post on a different thread raises a question for the thread starter, perhaps for the hundredth time, and so they seek answers. While some want particular answers only, most want an exchange of ideas and views and to try and understand. Perhaps I am too optomistic though and presuming others are insatiably seeking as I am always.

Catalina

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Re: My thoughts

I have read many posts here and feel a need to add my two cents.
The BDSM lifestyle seems to be very accepting of multiple subs/slaves, Dom/mes/Masters. People seem very accepting of one Master having more than one sub at a time. I also read many posts where subs admit to having more than one Master/Dom/me/partner. The lifestyle seems to be very tolerant and acceptance to some degree of promiscuity. Why then are people who are married condemned if they step outside of a marriage to satisfy certain needs?
You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't play with miscelaneous partners and then be up in arms about someone who strays outside of a relationship. Think about the things you do before you jump down somebody else's throat.

Whatever, "Master" Bertch*smirks*

The key point, as Catalina has expressed, is that there is a honest way to have multiple partners, and a dishonest way. If hubby is helping pick out his wife's play partners, or at least has had a conversation with her about it and gives consent, I have no problem with it. It is the lying and deception that is involved that we are complaining about.
I guess I'm as good of an example as any. I am a Dom; I have a RT sub. We pick and choose play-partners for us both, as well as ones for me to play with. I have final say, of course(*puffs up chest all Dom-like), but I don't feel that she can be consenting to our relationship unless she knows the exact boundaries of our relationship.
I guess the point I am making is this; why do we insist on honesty in BDSM relationships, and then seem to turn a blind eye to lying and cheating in vanilla situations?

 

[Master Bertch]

Re: Re: My thoughts

Whatever, "Master" Bertch*smirks*

....
I guess the point I am making is this; why do we insist on honesty in BDSM relationships, and then seem to turn a blind eye to lying and cheating in vanilla situations?

Well Johnny,
I don't turn a blind eye to the lying and cheating in 'nilla situations. Nor do I turn a blind eye to it in the BDSM lifestyle. It seems to happen everyewhere. I just don't think that it's anybody's place to condemn anyone for their choices. If the choices turn out to be mistakes, it will be a learning opportunity. I don't think that anybody out there can say that they've never been involved in some type of cloak and dagger situation at some point or another in their lives. And that's my final two cents.

Maybe you don't like to address me by the online nic, but my so/sub is quite proud to address me as her 'Master'.