Is submission a gift?

[monster666]

It is a need, yes, but are you willing to submit to just anyone? Generally, when you submit, your submission (your need) is given (a gift) to someone special.

The need to dominate works much the same way, as others have pointed out.

That's how I see it anyways.

quiet ... there is not a lot I can add to the above.

Speaking of myself only, my submissiveness is a deep need. A need that has been in me for as long as I can remember. There have been times in my life when I have stifled it, tried to hide it ... but, like most strong characteristics, it kept bubbling to the top.

I did not, was not complete until I offered and had my offer of submission taken.



Not sure if that answered you or not.

 

[monster666]

I don't think gifts are given arbitrarily at all most of the time. They are normally given specifically, with some thought and consideration. So is submission. And domination. It's a little like sexual Santa Claus! I disagree, Quint, but that's okay by me, if it's okay by you.

Whatever else it is, it is not a gift. Gifts are given arbitrarily; gifts are free from attached strings; gifts can be undeserved. Submission is none of these. Submission is an entry into a reciprocated relationship with the person the sub has chosen as worthy of them and what they have to offer. If it is a need then it is enhanced and made real by the reciprocal need of the Dominant. But it is never something so simple and thoughtless as a gift.

 

[monster666]

Re: Submission is a......

ROTFL!!!

Well said. Nothing like a lightsaber to get to the core of a matter.

a) Gift.
b) Need.
c) Both.
d) Punt.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Submission is a......

a) Gift.
b) Need.
c) Both.
d) Punt.

Like most "Multiple Guess" questions, the attempt to classify and clarify submission simply confuses the issue in a cloud of intellectualism. The issue is deeper and more visceral than our temporal lobes are used to processing. Therefore, language is likely to lag behind this idea for some time.

It is, in my opinion, a need and a gift at once. Does a dom(me) need to feel grateful for it? Not really. Like most relationship issues, the dom(me) brings a need and a gift as well, and if all is well and good and warm and fuzzy, those needs/gifts are complementary, the fitting curves of a yin/yang.

On second thought, perhaps we all should feel some form of gratitude that we're "put together" mentally and emotionally to experience this, acknowledge and try to understand it better......

I like your thinking on this.

Eb

 

[Guest]

I agree with the above posts which look at submission as both a need and a gift. I'm not sure the two need to be incompatible.

Gift is such a difficult word to decipher anyway. Gifts are things we give away without expectation of return. So in some sense, a gift of submission in no way entails an exchange for domination from the Dom/me. If we expect something back, even some sort of expression of gratitude, it seems we aren't really gifting in the first place. And in some sense a gift isn't even 'owned' by the person giving it. Some gifts are given precisely because they are right for the person receiving it. As if it belonged to them all along and simply flows through the giver.

That doesn't mean though that the gift has no value... in some instances, and this one in particular, it has perhaps the highest value... social capital. The gifting of oneself.


Then again, i'm starting to sound like some french postmodernist so perhaps it's best i clam up now..

Park~

 

[Parklife]

argh... i hate taking too long to finish my posts....

the above was I.....

Park~

 

[spankableBelle]

i had this all worked out this morning while real life was dogging my heels and i didn't have a moment to sit down and write out my thoughts and well, now i can't remember a thing that i wanted to say...

a gift is something precious...whether it be tangible, able to be smelt, touched, tasted...or intangible such as one's time...a gift, if given truly, it is something to bless another with or to be blessed by...

my submission is a need...submitting is something that is necessary for my happiness, for my emotional and mental health, for my contentment and for my peace...

however, for the right person, under the right circumstances, it is also a gift, intangible though it is...it is my need that i am giving to another, my mind, my soul, my body to shape and to mold, to hold steady and sure in the palm of a hand...

If a Dom/me truly has a need to dominate, would they not feel blessed in some way that submission was being given into their care? How else is that need satisfied? One cannot simply take it from another or it is not really submission, it is force, it is not following the consentual portion of the creed. If a submissive truly has a need to submit, would they not feel just as blessed that Dominance was being given? It is how i feel with Soron's dominance...i am blessed with His gift to me...i am blessed that He wishes to guide me, to lead me, to discipline me, and train me as His own. His dominance fills the need i have to submit and my submission fills the need He has to dominate.

It is both a gift given and received. It is also a need fulfilled. i do not think it arrogant or presumptous for one to say their submission is a gift, for it is not given to all, but to precious few...and to the right person, it is priceless...

belle

 

[redelicious]

Perfectly worded, Belle. Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Ebonyfire]

i had this all worked out this morning while real life was dogging my heels and i didn't have a moment to sit down and write out my thoughts and well, now i can't remember a thing that i wanted to say...

a gift is something precious...whether it be tangible, able to be smelt, touched, tasted...or intangible such as one's time...a gift, if given truly, it is something to bless another with or to be blessed by...

my submission is a need...submitting is something that is necessary for my happiness, for my emotional and mental health, for my contentment and for my peace...

however, for the right person, under the right circumstances, it is also a gift, intangible though it is...it is my need that i am giving to another, my mind, my soul, my body to shape and to mold, to hold steady and sure in the palm of a hand...

If a Dom/me truly has a need to dominate, would they not feel blessed in some way that submission was being given into their care? How else is that need satisfied? One cannot simply take it from another or it is not really submission, it is force, it is not following the consentual portion of the creed. If a submissive truly has a need to submit, would they not feel just as blessed that Dominance was being given? It is how i feel with Soron's dominance...i am blessed with His gift to me...i am blessed that He wishes to guide me, to lead me, to discipline me, and train me as His own. His dominance fills the need i have to submit and my submission fills the need He has to dominate.

It is both a gift given and received. It is also a need fulfilled. i do not think it arrogant or presumptous for one to say their submission is a gift, for it is not given to all, but to precious few...and to the right person, it is priceless...

belle

Very nice, Belle. After all the dominant and submissive are yin and yang. They balance each other.

Eb

 

[spankableBelle]

Perfectly worded, Belle. Couldn't have said it better.

Thank you so much, red...you have no idea how much your words mean...~smile~

 

[spankableBelle]

Very nice, Belle. After all the dominant and submissive are yin and yang. They balance each other.

Eb

Thank You, Eb...and yes there is a balance...One can't truly Dominate without submission nor can one truly submit without Dominance...

Thank You for reading my posts and always commenting...for Your words and wisdom i am blessed...

belle

 

[Soron]

Exchanging gifts and fulfilling needs

I read through the early posts of this thread Sunday and thought this would be a good assignment for belle. As much as any submissve I know she is in touch with her submissiveness. She has a natural need to serve and a good grasp of what it takes emotionally and spiritually. She never arrogantly assumes she will receive something in return. In my mind she truly has the heart of a submissive slave.

For as long as I can remember I have had the need to dominate. It's something inside of me that I came to terms with in my early twenties. As I've gotten older I have learned to share that need with submissives who were willing to give of themselves to me. Along the way I've learned how to be a teacher, a parent and a driving force in a relationship. It's not easy and I have made my share of mistakes.

As Shadows so eloquently put it, D/s is two people with needs that give the gift of themselves to the other. My gift of my dominance to belle is emotionally charged by her gift of submission to me. I see no other way of describing it simply.

 

[ChaoticLil]

i believe it's both.

my submission is a very real need for me, but i won't give it to just anyone. It's too easy to get hurt mentally and physically and the kinks that i'm into can literally get me killed.

In order for me to allow myself to submit to someone i have to trust them; trust them to understand my limits and to know they will not do anything that will hurt me. When i met Master i had quite a few hard limits. Now i only have two. Part of my submission to Him is knowing that He will never hurt me. There are some thing that i will do with Him that i will never do with anyone else because of that.

my submission is also a gift; a gift given to Master knowingly. He takes care of me, and in return i care for His needs in every way i can. This gift is real and very precious to the both of us. He keeps me safe.

if this doesn't make any sense i apologize. Guess i shouldn't be posting so late at night.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

Like many others here I feel that my submission is a gift I need to give to my Master. I don't feel however that he has to give anything in return, to me that would cheapen my gift too much.

So I guess basically I'm saying its both need and gift.

~smile~
dixi

 

[li'a-wahine]

Re: Re: Is submission a gift?

My opinion echos yours..and here is a bit more depth from My experience.

submission is a NEED that consumes the mind the heart and almost every waking moment. A passion that NEEDS to be fullfilled even if it takes a lifetime of searching for that reality.

I also agree that submission is a gift but the gift has no value if the Dominant is supposed to be GREATFUL for it. It has no more value than the pair of socks you get every Christmas under the tree. It must be a well chosen gift with meaning to the particular partners and be recognized as a trading of gifts between the Dominant and the submissive. Each layer of outside wrapping to be removed with pride to expose the true gift of understanding of what they share together.

The Dominant also recognizes the NEED to Dominate with every fibre of their being and will not be satisfied with just any man or woman mouthing the word *gift* or *submission* but will patiently wait for their magic.

The Dominant also gives the gift of Domination and it holds no less value than the more commonly spoken about gift of submission.

My opinion only.

Shadow~

you know, I was about to post a response to this thread which said the same thing (in my own way), but I decided to read through them all first, and there was your post! lol .

I agree that there is a need and a gift on both ends of this as you had said, the "gift" of domination is never really looked at, just the gift of submission............and the "need" of the dom/me to be dominant is just as strong as the need is to submit is the submissive

 

[Ghost's amaris]

Re: I said it before so I decided to cut and paste since my opinions have not changed.

I, too, have been giving this topic some serious thought. I find it hard to articulate my thoughts about this clearly or concisely but I'm going to try. Disclaimer: I see both submission and Domination as gifts we give each other. I can only speak to how I feel about giving submission since I'm not a Dominant.

__________________

I completely agree with this part. There are 2 gifts given in a D/s relationship. You have the give of submission by the submissive and the gift of Dominance bye the Dom/Dome.

I see it as a submissive giving the gift of there trust to the Domant of there choice.

I also see it as the Dominant giving the gift of Dominance to the submissive of his choice.

There is one little twist I put on that.

I also see it as a need on both parts of both parts.

There is the need of a submissive to submit and a need to have someone dominated, control and take care of them.

Just as there is a need for a Domant to dominate and to have some one submit to them to take care of there needs, wants and desires.

Ghost's amaris

 

[Red Menace]

I'm changing my vote on this. I don't think it's really a need or a gift.

It's a price.

The price you pay for that special someone to delve into the darkest recesses of your psyche and bring forth the primal desires, expose the fears and probe the boundaries of your limits.

 

[Ricckk]

This has probably been beat to death by now, but I have to agree with Desdemona, Spectre and Chaotic on several points.

Submission can be a profoundly deep gift even if it fulfils a need. I may not be "required" to appreciate such a gift, but I certainly do. Additionally, the submissive may need to give this gift, but she does not have to give it to ME.

 

[Desdemona]

This has probably been beat to death by now, but I have to agree with Desdemona, Spectre and Chaotic on several points.

Submission can be a profoundly deep gift even if it fulfils a need. I may not be "required" to appreciate such a gift, but I certainly do. Additionally, the submissive may need to give this gift, but she does not have to give it to ME.

I love it when somebody agrees with me. Hi Ricckk, call me des. Welcome to Lit.

 

[Charlotte K.]

Another interesting topic.

In my veiws submission can be veiwed a gift that fulfills a need and dominance is the same.

My kitten for instance started to call me Mistress because she respected me.

She respected my veiws, my strengh of character and she felt secure in my love for her, that is she trusted me totally.

She gave herself to me in that way.

I immeadiantly realised that I could respond to this respect and trust with some of equal measure.

I respected and admired her. By her own admission she likes to be taken care of, and have her decisions made for her. She wants to feel protected and loved in that way.


Our needs to be satisfied in all areas, sexual, mental, romantically and spirtually are stemmed from self and we were joined as one entity, a couple that is, by the this gifts of trust and respect that we exchanged.

Thus all my needs and hers are amply sastified.

For instance..I can't stop smiling because my kitten tongued me today like never before, she's so good at it

The other side of it comes with the bondage and beatings and so forth.

My kitten believes that she is simply proving her deep love and trust for me by allowing me to dominate her like that. She also is extremely turned on by it as an added bonus!

I enjoy it and find a strange contentment in testing and finding that my kitten will submit to me and allow this. There is a thrill to know that I am so loved and respected.

Our primal needs, our 'strange desires and our intimate passion, drive our ecstasy upwards and to new heights every day.

My kitten is a gift in herself and I need her.


Yours truely

Charlotte K.

 

[UCE]

First is submission a gift or a need? There has been much banter about this issue in the BDSM community and whether or not submission is a gift given or a need that is taken.

I don't think it can be completely a gift because very few people could sustain it (submission or slavery) on a permanent basis. Maybe one in several million submissive people is capable of this, I'd guess. So for most people, the desire to submit needs to be there. For a smaller group, the group that needs total slavery all the time (obviously, not everybody needs this), the need to submit also has to be there--but is not enough by itself: if you don't have a dominant with an equally strong desire to take control of you, then you are submitting in a vacuum and you can only do that for so long before you get desperate and frustrated and even very angry because your "dominant" is not doing much to control you. That control is what some submissives need, although they can sometimes confuse this and say it's the submission that they need. But submitting, no matter how extremely, all alone without anybody ever taking control and _making sure_ that they submit, is a very sexually and emotionally unsatisfying experience for those submissives looking for absolute power-exchange relationships.

In power relationships, it takes two to tango, but the onus does fall on the partner who is supposedly in control to be the most active, to do the brunt of the work of enslaving a submissive person (remember I'm talking about the extreme relationships only here--these are in the minority in the bdsm world so this isn't a perscription for everybody). But the submissive, however resistant she may get on the surface (and most of us get that way, at least for a while) needs at heart to really want to give up control and serve someone else's will else the relationship won't work.

It's easy to get confused about whether submission is a gift or must be taken if all you have as examples for relationships are the ones that are conducted online, with occasional or no real-life meetings. Cyber relationships are suspended relationships, they are in a sort of limbo as I see it, because none of the big real-life and minor day-to-day issues affect the two people _as a couple_. For example, it's very different having a problem with a child when your master is living with you and helping raising that child than having that difficulty when your master lives across the country and you only see him online. Also, in cyber relationships, the issue of resistance either never comes up or is handled very dfiferently. For the most part, submitting online to someone you met online, even if you talk to them regularly on the phone and have occasional meetings, is very easy: it is untested submission. There's no one right there, sleeping with you, watching you during the day, "breathing down your back," lol, to make sure that you obey, and usually the things that you are ordered to do online are the very easy sexual tasks that you want to do in the first place. If you have the wrong kind of online partner of course, he will eventually "order" you to do something you cannot in any way bring yourself to do. What most online submissives do at this juncture is either break up with the dominant (usually the dom will initiate this, further proving his inappropriateness to control anybody) or, more commonly, lie to him. Online, it is so EASY to lie! He's not going to know if you actually did the task or not unless he's the sort who demands photos and sometimes even those can be faked. In a live-in relationship, in contrast, the couple has to face and deal directly with the submissive's disobedience. It's a lot harder to hide it, and it's also much more likely to occur becuase the commands you get in real life from your live-in partner arent' always these easy delicious sexy ones: you have to make his breakfast, do certain errrands, clean the house--and it's totally obvious to him if these are not done. Then you have to, if you have a good relationship, talk over why you disobeyed and he has to decide how to better insure your obedience in the future.

Online dominants may try to do this sort of thing, but let's say they decide to punish you. Even over the telephone you can fake sounds of pain and not really put that clothespin on your clit (or maybe you put it there but you only leave it on a few seconds rather than the required 20 minutes). It's just too easy and too tempting to cheat online.

The reason I'm describing this aspect of cyber relationships in such detail is to point out that becuase they are so relatively easy to be in, the idea that the submissive is freely "giving" her submission to the dominant without any action or intention on his part can be maintained within them. You are never tested in these relationships in the way you are in real-life ones, and so your submission, because it is requried on such a weak and easy level, can remain a freely given "gift," although if you are one of those submissive people with deeper needs, this kind of relationship will ultimately be unsatisfactory to you.

Some live-in bdsm relationships, obviously, in fact I 'd say the majority of them, do not involve absolutely slavery. In these relationships, clearly, submission can be a freely and probably easily given gift because it is not fulltime and does not face the challenges and difficulties that submission at all times to the will of someone else does. I'm talking about situations like submission in the bedroom. This isn't in any way a pejorative statement--people choose the relationships that they believe are right from them and if you believe you won't be utterly miserable if you are not fully controlled then it would be really stupid for you to seek out this extreme sort of control, because you wouldn't be doing it for sexual needs, you'd be doing it for other reasons, ego perhaps: "I have to prove that MY relationship is as tough and challenging as those of those needy control-freak submissives." Choosing a sexual style for any reason other than desire, however, is the height of stupidity and will only make you miserable in the long run. Still, in the past, a lot of bdsm people used to feel angry that other submissives needed more extreme control than they did and the result was they either lied about how extreme their relationship was (honestly, I have heard MANY submissives angrily state: "My relationship is 24/7 total control even though I only submit in the bedroom!" That's like saying "YES I AM A WALRUS, even though I am only actually a seal.") It's not a competition. The idea for everybody here is to get what they want and need sexually, and NOT get what doesn't suit them. Anyway, in relationships of partial control, submission can also remain a "gift." But I believe that nobody except a very rare few (and I've never met one) submissives can "give" themselves 100% day in and day out without the dominant also doing his part.

The idea of submission being a gift is an attractive one to many people and it is true or can be true in a large number of situations. The thing to remember about an ongoing gift, however, is that it can always be freely taken back--if you are freely deciding to submit, you can always freely decide NOT to submit (I call that the dark side of the gift). A few people, a minority among kinky people, need to know that there is no turning back, that they are enslaved forever and not because they are freely giving it, either. For those people, viewing their submission (or the submission of their partner)as a gift is confusing and retards their getting what they really need. For the rest of us, however, the gift metaphor is an accurate one, and probably a very positive one.

Unda

 

[Ghost's amaris]

Re: Re: Is submission a gift?

I don't think it can be completely a gift because very few people could sustain it (submission or slavery) on a permanent basis. Maybe one in several million submissive people is capable of this, I'd guess. So for most people, the desire to submit needs to be there. For a smaller group, the group that needs total slavery all the time (obviously, not everybody needs this), the need to submit also has to be there--but is not enough by itself: if you don't have a dominant with an equally strong desire to take control of you, then you are submitting in a vacuum and you can only do that for so long before you get desperate and frustrated and even very angry because your "dominant" is not doing much to control you. That control is what some submissives need, although they can sometimes confuse this and say it's the submission that they need. But submitting, no matter how extremely, all alone without anybody ever taking control and _making sure_ that they submit, is a very sexually and emotionally unsatisfying experience for those submissives looking for absolute power-exchange relationships.

In power relationships, it takes two to tango, but the onus does fall on the partner who is supposedly in control to be the most active, to do the brunt of the work of enslaving a submissive person (remember I'm talking about the extreme relationships only here--these are in the minority in the bdsm world so this isn't a perscription for everybody). But the submissive, however resistant she may get on the surface (and most of us get that way, at least for a while) needs at heart to really want to give up control and serve someone else's will else the relationship won't work.

It's easy to get confused about whether submission is a gift or must be taken if all you have as examples for relationships are the ones that are conducted online, with occasional or no real-life meetings. Cyber relationships are suspended relationships, they are in a sort of limbo as I see it, because none of the big real-life and minor day-to-day issues affect the two people _as a couple_. For example, it's very different having a problem with a child when your master is living with you and helping raising that child than having that difficulty when your master lives across the country and you only see him online. Also, in cyber relationships, the issue of resistance either never comes up or is handled very dfiferently. For the most part, submitting online to someone you met online, even if you talk to them regularly on the phone and have occasional meetings, is very easy: it is untested submission. There's no one right there, sleeping with you, watching you during the day, "breathing down your back," lol, to make sure that you obey, and usually the things that you are ordered to do online are the very easy sexual tasks that you want to do in the first place. If you have the wrong kind of online partner of course, he will eventually "order" you to do something you cannot in any way bring yourself to do. What most online submissives do at this juncture is either break up with the dominant (usually the dom will initiate this, further proving his inappropriateness to control anybody) or, more commonly, lie to him. Online, it is so EASY to lie! He's not going to know if you actually did the task or not unless he's the sort who demands photos and sometimes even those can be faked. In a live-in relationship, in contrast, the couple has to face and deal directly with the submissive's disobedience. It's a lot harder to hide it, and it's also much more likely to occur becuase the commands you get in real life from your live-in partner arent' always these easy delicious sexy ones: you have to make his breakfast, do certain errrands, clean the house--and it's totally obvious to him if these are not done. Then you have to, if you have a good relationship, talk over why you disobeyed and he has to decide how to better insure your obedience in the future.

Online dominants may try to do this sort of thing, but let's say they decide to punish you. Even over the telephone you can fake sounds of pain and not really put that clothespin on your clit (or maybe you put it there but you only leave it on a few seconds rather than the required 20 minutes). It's just too easy and too tempting to cheat online.

The reason I'm describing this aspect of cyber relationships in such detail is to point out that becuase they are so relatively easy to be in, the idea that the submissive is freely "giving" her submission to the dominant without any action or intention on his part can be maintained within them. You are never tested in these relationships in the way you are in real-life ones, and so your submission, because it is requried on such a weak and easy level, can remain a freely given "gift," although if you are one of those submissive people with deeper needs, this kind of relationship will ultimately be unsatisfactory to you.

Some live-in bdsm relationships, obviously, in fact I 'd say the majority of them, do not involve absolutely slavery. In these relationships, clearly, submission can be a freely and probably easily given gift because it is not fulltime and does not face the challenges and difficulties that submission at all times to the will of someone else does. I'm talking about situations like submission in the bedroom. This isn't in any way a pejorative statement--people choose the relationships that they believe are right from them and if you believe you won't be utterly miserable if you are not fully controlled then it would be really stupid for you to seek out this extreme sort of control, because you wouldn't be doing it for sexual needs, you'd be doing it for other reasons, ego perhaps: "I have to prove that MY relationship is as tough and challenging as those of those needy control-freak submissives." Choosing a sexual style for any reason other than desire, however, is the height of stupidity and will only make you miserable in the long run. Still, in the past, a lot of bdsm people used to feel angry that other submissives needed more extreme control than they did and the result was they either lied about how extreme their relationship was (honestly, I have heard MANY submissives angrily state: "My relationship is 24/7 total control even though I only submit in the bedroom!" That's like saying "YES I AM A WALRUS, even though I am only actually a seal.") It's not a competition. The idea for everybody here is to get what they want and need sexually, and NOT get what doesn't suit them. Anyway, in relationships of partial control, submission can also remain a "gift." But I believe that nobody except a very rare few (and I've never met one) submissives can "give" themselves 100% day in and day out without the dominant also doing his part.

The idea of submission being a gift is an attractive one to many people and it is true or can be true in a large number of situations. The thing to remember about an ongoing gift, however, is that it can always be freely taken back--if you are freely deciding to submit, you can always freely decide NOT to submit (I call that the dark side of the gift). A few people, a minority among kinky people, need to know that there is no turning back, that they are enslaved forever and not because they are freely giving it, either. For those people, viewing their submission (or the submission of their partner)as a gift is confusing and retards their getting what they really need. For the rest of us, however, the gift metaphor is an accurate one, and probably a very positive one.

Unda

I completely agree with you, but there are those submissives that are LDR/LTR/RL/and cyber while they are not together. Some of those relationships are really treated as if they are actually together and do take the punishment seriously and dont cheat on them.

I can say this because i am in a relationship in that case and we are working on making it so it is not LDR anymore it is going to take a little bit more time but when he punishes me I do as he says and for how long he says. Some of his punishments are saved until he gets here and we take care of the punishments when he gets here the next time as the very first thing he does.

So I do agree with you there are still other types of relationships and they can be taken very seriously while you are apart. Some submissives will even tell there master when they do or say something wrong without being asked. I for one have done that alot with different things. That is the relationship we have and have agreed apon and it works for us.

amaris

 

[justgem]

.

 

[Ghost's amaris]

justgem,

That was so beautifully and eliquantly put. I wish i could write with such beauty and eliquance. Maybe one day after alot of practice i will be better at the way i write and say things, but i keep striving and hoefully one day i will acheve it.


Ghost's amaris

 

[justgem]

.