Isn't that interesting...

[Eilan]

LOL I hope not.
Would be a short discussion if we all agreed, huh?
I enjoy a lively dicourse.

Well, it IS a discussion board, and not a "let's-kiss-everyone's-ass-and-agree" board.

Though as much as I'd like to stay and discuss things, I'm off to bed.

 

[brw02]

Then why not just come back home? Why go to such effort to concoct a story in a lame attempt to save face or whatever it was she was trying to do?

Why not just cancel the wedding and get away from it all for a few days?

In retrospect that would have been a better decision. However, what's done is done; I already conceded that Jennifer made a mistake and used poor judgement. I don't really know what she was thinking. Still, I can't imagine how this amounted to a serious crime. There must be a lot more important things for prosecutors to worry about. The local police department may have spent time and effort pursuing Jennifer, but what else would they be doing? Writing sporadic speeding tickets and busting kids with a miniscule amount of pot? Even if this was a crime (what exactly did that retarded DA charge her with?), it seems like a minor one. The family was out some money for the wedding which never took place, but that seems like a family concern.

 

[brw02]

Well, it IS a discussion board, and not a "let's-kiss-everyone's-ass-and-agree" board.

Though as much as I'd like to stay and discuss things, I'm off to bed.

Good night, Eilan. Sleep well. I always enjoy your spirited discussions.

 

[SweetErika]

Cosmetic surgery for graduation (or any) gift? Patently ridiculous. It reminds me...my boss keeps up with Chinese news, and she was saying how it's a growing trend for parents to pay for their daughters to have extensive cosmetic surgery following graduation. Beautiful women get good jobs and husbands and don't have to live a miserable, poverty-stricken life like plainer women do. No one will hire an "ugly" secretary or marry a woman they can't be proud to show off. So these parents are scraping together all they have for their daughters to undergo multiple procedures and live better lives, even though there's not a damn thing wrong with them in the first place. Sad, huh?

I got a college education for high school graduation. For college degrees, my husband and I (we were shackin' up at the time) got a fair amount of money from his family, a really nice bed from my mom (something we desperately needed), a vacation from my dad, and some other furniture and help starting out. Everything was greatly appreciated and has been well used...especially that bed! I'd be inclined to help my kid(s) out the same way...with things they'll use for starting a life on their own and a long time.

Michael Jackson's a fruitcake. NOBODY thinks it's okay to sleep with little boys or show up to their trial in pajamas. I didn't pay attention to the case or trial, but I can't help but be a little sick over how much money was spent on the whole affair. I'm not saying we shouldn't spend money to prosecute, but so much of that money, especially for security and attorney's fees, could have been better spent on necessities for a lot of people.

I have a big problem with Jennifer Wilbanks. All she had to do was tell someone or leave a note or call and say she was okay. It's not my problem, but what she put the people who care about her through needlessly makes me sick.

In retrospect that would have been a better decision. However, what's done is done; I already conceded that Jennifer made a mistake and used poor judgment. I don't really know what she was thinking. Still, I can't imagine how this amounted to a serious crime. There must be a lot more important things for prosecutors to worry about. The local police department may have spent time and effort pursuing Jennifer, but what else would they be doing? Writing sporadic speeding tickets and busting kids with a miniscule amount of pot? Even if this was a crime (what exactly did that retarded DA charge her with?), it seems like a minor one. The family was out some money for the wedding which never took place, but that seems like a family concern.

Let me tell you why it's a serious crime IMHO. We don't know what the police could have better spent that time and money on, but we can bet there was something else. Hell, they could have given it to people who really needed it. And what if something else HAD happened and the resources were split between the real crime and fake one? A child or another victim may not have been found because they were wasting time looking for someone who wasn't in trouble.

The serious part for me is the lying about being assaulted. Most people are afraid to report real sexual assaults because they're afraid they won't be believed. Real victims are treated terribly sometimes because it's not taken seriously. This kind of thing adds to the perception for some people that women make stuff up or are just trying to get attention. How would you feel if you were raped and encountered one of those people who believed you might be making it up, and were treated accordingly, instead of with the compassion you desperately needed and deserved? How would you feel if the police wondered if you were concocting this story for sympathy like Wilbanks and didn't work the case as hard as they could, or give you all of your options and get you the help you needed...all of that after you had made the incredibly difficult decision to report it?

So, really, the possibility of those things alone makes lying about such serious events a "serious crime" to me. Hurting her family and friends is something she has to deal with. It's dumb luck no other serious crimes that we know of took place during her charade. But it was wasted money since it was completely unnecessary, and who knows how many other people she may hurt in adding to or altering perceptions of kidnapping and assault.

 

[brw02]

Let me tell you why it's a serious crime IMHO. We don't know what the police could have better spent that time and money on, but we can bet there was something else. Hell, they could have given it to people who really needed it. And what if something else HAD happened and the resources were split between the real crime and fake one? A child or another victim may not have been found because they were wasting time looking for someone who wasn't in trouble.

The serious part for me is the lying about being assaulted. Most people are afraid to report real sexual assaults because they're afraid they won't be believed. Real victims are treated terribly sometimes because it's not taken seriously. This kind of thing adds to the perception for some people that women make stuff up or are just trying to get attention. How would you feel if you were raped and encountered one of those people who believed you might be making it up, and were treated accordingly, instead of with the compassion you desperately needed and deserved? How would you feel if the police wondered if you were concocting this story for sympathy like Wilbanks and didn't work the case as hard as they could, or give you all of your options and get you the help you needed...all of that after you had made the incredibly difficult decision to report it?

So, really, the possibility of those things alone makes lying about such serious events a "serious crime" to me. Hurting her family and friends is something she has to deal with. It's dumb luck no other serious crimes that we know of took place during her charade. But it was wasted money since it was completely unnecessary, and who knows how many other people she may hurt in adding to or altering perceptions of kidnapping and assault.

Thanks for your opinion, Eriika. I simply can not agree that this was a "serious" crime because of what might have been. The police could surely have been doing something else; they could have been cruising the fast food places collecting leftover burgers and donuts. They could have been hiding behind trees trying to catch someone driving 5 mph over the speed limit when there is no other traffic in sight. Just give thanks that you don't live near the Canadian border like I do. Be thankful that you can drive to the grocery store without having some cop staring at you like you are a criminal fugitive.

Your statement that "it was dumb luck that no other serious crimes that we know of took place during her charade" is really preposterous. If there was (a possibility), the police had as much chance to stop it while pursuing Wilbanks as they would have otherwise. At least there was a possible crime taking place here, even if it turned out to be a false alarm. While they were "investigating" her disappearance they were leaving the rest of us alone. That is about the only positive thing I can say about the whole fiasco.

 

[Eilan]

The police could surely have been doing something else; they could have been cruising the fast food places collecting leftover burgers and donuts. They could have been hiding behind trees trying to catch someone driving 5 mph over the speed limit when there is no other traffic in sight. Just give thanks that you don't live near the Canadian border like I do. Be thankful that you can drive to the grocery store without having some cop staring at you like you are a criminal fugitive.

My husband's a cop--at least for the next 12 days, though something like the Jennifer Wilbanks case wouldn't fall within his jurisdiction. Don't assume that ALL cops fit the "fat, lazy SOB with authority issues" stereotype. I'll grant my husband and his co-workers the SOB part, but only because they have to deal with people who are always looking for ways to avoid responsibility for their actions. AND his division's held to fairly strict weight standards, which they can be fired for not adhering to. This is why you'll never see my hubby eating a donut while in uniform.

The serious part for me is the lying about being assaulted. Most people are afraid to report real sexual assaults because they're afraid they won't be believed. Real victims are treated terribly sometimes because it's not taken seriously. This kind of thing adds to the perception for some people that women make stuff up or are just trying to get attention.

In all honesty, THIS is what bothers me the most about what Jennifer Wilbanks did.

 

[SweetErika]

Thanks for your opinion, Eriika. I simply can not agree that this was a "serious" crime because of what might have been. The police could surely have been doing something else; they could have been cruising the fast food places collecting leftover burgers and donuts. They could have been hiding behind trees trying to catch someone driving 5 mph over the speed limit when there is no other traffic in sight. Just give thanks that you don't live near the Canadian border like I do. Be thankful that you can drive to the grocery store without having some cop staring at you like you are a criminal fugitive.

Your statement that "it was dumb luck that no other serious crimes that we know of took place during her charade" is really preposterous. If there was (a possibility), the police had as much chance to stop it while pursuing Wilbanks as they would have otherwise. At least there was a possible crime taking place here, even if it turned out to be a false alarm. While they were "investigating" her disappearance they were leaving the rest of us alone. That is about the only positive thing I can say about the whole fiasco.

All police departments are different. Our local ones are usually very busy. They stop for breaks when they get a chance...often they don't get a break at all. Yes, they're catching speeders, the kids who are dragracing in the neighborhood, reassuring little old ladies, busting meth houses, investigating, taking abusive parents into custody, etc. THEY DO THEIR JOB. And they have better things to do than look for a woman who just couldn't be bothered to write a note and proceeded to lie about terrible, very real acts. There's always a child missing. There's always an unsolved murder. There's always something better to do.

I don't know what kind of problems you have with law enforcement, but they're clearly big ones. Should a crime be commited against you in the future, I bet you'd be happier if the police were available to help. Hopefully you'll never be put in that situation though.

At any rate, you either completely missed or ignored the gist of my post.

 

[SweetErika]

My husband's a cop--at least for the next 12 days, though something like the Jennifer Wilbanks case wouldn't fall within his jurisdiction. Don't assume that ALL cops fit the "fat, lazy SOB with authority issues" stereotype. I'll grant my husband and his co-workers the SOB part, but only because they have to deal with people who are always looking for ways to avoid responsibility for their actions. AND his division's held to fairly strict weight standards, which they can be fired for not adhering to. This is why you'll never see my hubby eating a donut while in uniform.

In all honesty, THIS is what bothers me the most about what Jennifer Wilbanks did.

I'm psychic!!!

I just knew you'd respond to that post, Eilan. And, yeah, that's what bothers me about what she did too. I can write off fleeing as thoughtless, stupid, or crazy, but not the well-crafted story that may very well make some people think twice about believing survivors of rape and kidnapping.

 

[Eilan]

I'm psychic!!!

Who would have thunk it!?

I just knew you'd respond to that post, Eilan. And, yeah, that's what bothers me about what she did too. I can write off fleeing as thoughtless, stupid, or crazy, but not the well-crafted story that may very well make some people think twice about believing survivors of rape and kidnapping.

Are you familiar with Lucky by Alice Sebold? It's a memoir detailing her sexual/physical assault at the end of her freshman year at Syracuse. The cops didn't believe her at first, even though it was obvious that she'd been beaten at the very least (and she had to have stitches to fix the internal damage caused by her rapist). In fact, Sebold's own father asked her how she could have been raped if her rapist didn't have a weapon. He DID have a knife that she managed to kick away, as I recall.

The point, which has already been addressed repeatedly by several people throughout this thread, is that anyone who is sexually assaulted has enough trouble establishing credibility as it is without people like Wilbanks. THIS is why I feel contempt for her.

 

[Ricwilly]

When the news first reported Wilbanks had been found, the news reported her story about being kidnapped and let go, there was no mention of it being a hoax.
When I read it I thought "bullshit". I figured she was making it up then, before it came out soon after she was lying.
My question is did anyone else get that perception and if I a total stranger got that from random reports I happened to see (I wasn't really following the story) then I'm wondering why the people investigating the case didn't have that possibility in mind from her history, she'd been known to be a bit off. Maybe they did on second thought and it just wasn't mentioned. If that is the case I think the news agencies hold some responsiblity for blowing the whole story out of proportion. Just some related thoughts

 

[Ricwilly]

Yes I agree lying about being kidnapped and especially about the sexual assault was a crime, one that hurts future victims. She was prosecuted for this crime as is as it should be.
I'm just saying she don't owe the money for the original search as just leaving and not telling anyone isn't against the law, tho it may be inconsiderate.

 

[Cathleen]

Thanks for your opinion, Eriika. I simply can not agree that this was a "serious" crime because of what might have been. The police could surely have been doing something else; they could have been cruising the fast food places collecting leftover burgers and donuts. They could have been hiding behind trees trying to catch someone driving 5 mph over the speed limit when there is no other traffic in sight. Just give thanks that you don't live near the Canadian border like I do. Be thankful that you can drive to the grocery store without having some cop staring at you like you are a criminal fugitive.

Your statement that "it was dumb luck that no other serious crimes that we know of took place during her charade" is really preposterous. If there was (a possibility), the police had as much chance to stop it while pursuing Wilbanks as they would have otherwise. At least there was a possible crime taking place here, even if it turned out to be a false alarm. While they were "investigating" her disappearance they were leaving the rest of us alone. That is about the only positive thing I can say about the whole fiasco.

(brw02, FYI, you can use the quote button to add a post to yours, it might be easier - your choice.)

First of all your comments about cops is pretty tough, not to mention misguided in my opinion. To belittle them in the way you suggest makes me want to discount anything you said because the remarks are just so far a field of a reasonable description. Generalizations just don't wash with me - shrug.

There was a crime here. While I don't consider her behavior or any charges brought against her to be so serious in nature but, she did break the law lying to the police. But above all our discussions here, the police and the attorney general are mandated to investigate situations. The family reported her missing and said it was so out of character for her. They are mandated to search for her; they may have begun their search before some jurisdictions of 24 or 48 hours because they were a small force but..... the mandate remains. No the sky didn't fall because of her actions but the community should not have to pay the price, financially or protection wise due to her behavior. She wasn't just inconsiderate to her family and loved ones - but the entire community, and any communities she involved. It is a serious issue on the basis of civil obedience in my opinion.



I agree that her crying wolf is not good for future reporting but that is a different issue right now.

 

[Cathleen]

Yes I agree lying about being kidnapped and especially about the sexual assault was a crime, one that hurts future victims. She was prosecuted for this crime as is as it should be.
I'm just saying she don't owe the money for the original search as just leaving and not telling anyone isn't against the law, tho it may be inconsiderate.

I think she owes it, her inconsideration cost real money. It was a farce, she created it, she kept it alive, she pays. IMO.

 

[Eilan]

I think the news agencies hold some responsiblity for blowing the whole story out of proportion.

Surely not!

When I first heard about the Wilbanks story, I immediately thought the fiancé had something to do with it. That's not fair to him, but it is, in fact, statistically more likely to be the case.

I was also thinking about the Mark and Lori Hacking case. (For those of you who aren't familiar with it, here's the Cliff's Notes version of events: Mark Hacking shot his wife, who was possibly five weeks pregnant, in the head after she discovered that his admission to medical school and various other aspects of his educational background were fabricated.) Hacking claimed his wife didn't return from a jog.

I think she owes it, her inconsideration cost real money. It was a farce, she created it, she kept it alive, she pays. IMO.

Keep in mind that she HAS, in fact, repaid all that she's LEGALLY required to repay, which wasn't enough, in my opinion.

 

[brw02]

(brw02, FYI, you can use the quote button to add a post to yours, it might be easier - your choice.)

First of all your comments about cops is pretty tough, not to mention misguided in my opinion. To belittle them in the way you suggest makes me want to discount anything you said because the remarks are just so far a field of a reasonable description. Generalizations just don't wash with me - shrug.

Cathleen,
I don'y yjonk you knows me. I thought we had met before. Much of what I write is of the "tongue-in-cheek" variety. I like to take a friendky jab ay the cops every now and then. My brother, and closest gtiend, is an officer also. Regardless, I do not believe that the officers were being kept from any more serious vrimes while they pursued Jennifer. Their time wasn't lost. They were on the trail of a possible felony, and it made sense to investigate the reports. Isn't that what they are paid to do? Sure, another crime might have happened, but we would have heard all about it by now. We might experience a violent crime at any time. We should not assumr that one is liable to happen. In my view, Wilbanks agreed to pay cost of police resources used to investigate her claim. Those costs were already paid by the taxpayers. Would I (a taxpayer) expect to share Wilbanks' money? What do you think?

Off the subject, I have no issue with most cops. Many perform admirably, often beyond the requirements of their job. Their work can be very dangerous; it is often monotonous and depressing also. Please don't take my satire personally.

 

[h_i_s]

Hmm... i received a high school ring as a graduation gift. No one even offered me breast implants, although being that i have always been no more than an "A" or a "AA" cup (other than while nursing .. i was a D cup, back then) ..i certainly could have used them.

i'm glad that they were not available to me for more than a few reasons.

1) i would have gladly accepted them, and would have had them done back then.
2) i may not have been capable of nursing two healthy babies in my late 20's/early 30's.
3) my husband doesn't like them at all.
4) Having them replaced, repaired, and / or otherwise maintained later in life would seem like a complete pain in the ass ... and i doubt that the scars which would result after the surguries would be attractive at all.

 

[Ricwilly]

Hmm... i received a high school ring as a graduation gift. No one even offered me breast implants, although being that i have always been no more than an "A" or a "AA" cup (other than while nursing .. i was a D cup, back then) ..i certainly could have used them.

i'm glad that they were not available to me for more than a few reasons.

1) i would have gladly accepted them, and would have had them done back then.
2) i may not have been capable of nursing two healthy babies in my late 20's/early 30's.
3) my husband doesn't like them at all.
4) Having them replaced, repaired, and / or otherwise maintained later in life would seem like a complete pain in the ass ... and i doubt that the scars which would result after the surguries would be attractive at all.

All great reasons, I'm with your husband. Nature made is it.

 

[Cathleen]

brw - thanks for the clarification... sorry I jumped to conclusions there.

 

[Cathleen]

All great reasons, I'm with your husband. Nature made is it.

Me too and how nice it is to know natural is appreciated. When I first came to Lit I was so surprized how real men talked of wanting real women... it was an eyeopener for me. I had generalized and let my mind fool me - I was so wrong. I'm no longer surprized at the realness I find here. I'm so grateful I was wrong.

 

[Shagly]

Me too and how nice it is to know natural is appreciated. When I first came to Lit I was so surprized how real men talked of wanting real women... it was an eyeopener for me. I had generalized and let my mind fool me - I was so wrong. I'm no longer surprized at the realness I find here. I'm so grateful I was wrong.

Oh Cate dear you can be right at times.

If I only knew things in High School that I know now.

 

[Eilan]

For those of you who might be interested. . .

Here's an op-ed piece that Brooke Shields wrote in response to psychiatry expert Tom Cruise:

"War of Words" by Brooke Shields (from www.NYTimes.com)

I WAS hoping it wouldn't come to this, but after Tom Cruise's interview with Matt Lauer on the NBC show "Today" last week, I feel compelled to speak not just for myself but also for the hundreds of thousands of women who have suffered from postpartum depression. While Mr. Cruise says that Mr. Lauer and I do not "understand the history of psychiatry," I'm going to take a wild guess and say that Mr. Cruise has never suffered from postpartum depression.

Postpartum depression is caused by the hormonal shifts that occur after childbirth. During pregnancy, a woman's level of estrogen and progesterone greatly increases; then, in the first 24 hours after childbirth, the amount of these hormones rapidly drops to normal, nonpregnant levels. This change in hormone levels can lead to reactions that range from restlessness and irritability to feelings of sadness and hopelessness.

I never thought I would have postpartum depression. After two years of trying to conceive and several attempts at in vitro fertilization, I thought I would be overjoyed when my daughter, Rowan Francis, was born in the spring of 2003. But instead I felt completely overwhelmed. This baby was a stranger to me. I didn't know what to do with her. I didn't feel at all joyful. I attributed feelings of doom to simple fatigue and figured that they would eventually go away. But they didn't; in fact, they got worse.

I couldn't bear the sound of Rowan crying, and I dreaded the moments my husband would bring her to me. I wanted her to disappear. I wanted to disappear. At my lowest points, I thought of swallowing a bottle of pills or jumping out the window of my apartment.

I couldn't believe it when my doctor told me that I was suffering from postpartum depression and gave me a prescription for the antidepressant Paxil. I wasn't thrilled to be taking drugs. In fact, I prematurely stopped taking them and had a relapse that almost led me to drive my car into a wall with Rowan in the backseat. But the drugs, along with weekly therapy sessions, are what saved me - and my family.

Since writing about my experiences with the disease, I have been approached by many women who have told me their stories and thanked me for opening up about a topic that is often not discussed because of fear, shame or lack of support and information. Experts estimate that one in 10 women suffer, usually in silence, with this treatable disease. We are living in an era of so-called family values, yet because almost all of the postnatal focus is on the baby, mothers are overlooked and left behind to endure what can be very dark times.

And comments like those made by Tom Cruise are a disservice to mothers everywhere. To suggest that I was wrong to take drugs to deal with my depression, and that instead I should have taken vitamins and exercised shows an utter lack of understanding about postpartum depression and childbirth in general.

If any good can come of Mr. Cruise's ridiculous rant, let's hope that it gives much-needed attention to a serious disease. Perhaps now is the time to call on doctors, particularly obstetricians and pediatricians, to screen for postpartum depression. After all, during the first three months after childbirth, you see a pediatrician at least three times. While pediatricians are trained to take care of children, it would make sense for them to talk with new mothers, ask questions and inform them of the symptoms and treatment should they show signs of postpartum depression.

In a strange way, it was comforting to me when my obstetrician told me that my feelings of extreme despair and my suicidal thoughts were directly tied to a biochemical shift in my body. Once we admit that postpartum is a serious medical condition, then the treatment becomes more available and socially acceptable. With a doctor's care, I have since tapered off the medication, but without it, I wouldn't have become the loving parent I am today.

So, there you have it. It's not the history of psychiatry, but it is my history, personal and real.

 

[Quoll]

Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap.

No images in cafe grr.

 

[Cathleen]

Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap, Clap.

No images in cafe grr.

Rah rah rah along with you quoll. I think she was easy on him, I would have blasted him out of this world.

I don't know why we don't have img. available here.

 

[Quoll]

Rah rah rah along with you quoll. I think she was easy on him, I would have blasted him out of this world.

I don't know why we don't have img. available here.

I agree Cate, that`s one of my biggest hates, "the just do something positive and get over it mentality" if it was simply a matter of positive thinking and getting out there, very few of us would be on meds, unfortunately there seem to be many different opinions on what constitutes depression, whether post partum or any other sort.
From my experience and my opinion, if you can talk yourself out out of it, get out and do things to get you past it, then you don`t have "depression" you may be down or have the blues or having a bad few weeks but it will pass.
Depression, well the kind I am familiar with, does not pass, it does not even give you the ability to think positively, every moment of every day is a struggle to go on. Outwardly your friends don`t see much change, we're good at masking, but inwardly it is a constant battle............
hehe oops got on a roll there, anyway you get the point.

 

[Cathleen]

Quoll, I understand and I agree. There is still misnomer surrounding depressions. Clinical depression is extremely prevalent and there are many that probably go untreated because of misinformation; Cruise did much damage with his words on that front. We all have down days or periods and that is depression, the blues etc., it is not clinical depression.

Medications should only be given under the advice of a doctor, preferably a psychiatrist if possible, at the very least a M.D. with a very good understanding of depression. Medication is serious business and there is so much trial and error in finding the correct one(s) people need to be monitored closely.

There is so much to learn of the brain and the chemical makeup, so until far more is known, by the professionals, people like Cruise do more harm then good. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but .... do no harm. I'm still surprised the people surrounding Cruise haven't tried to make some kind of ammends regarding Brooke Shields in particular, and psychiatry in general.

On a personal level, I have a family member that suffered postpartum depression psychosis, she went untreated for nine months. She knew five days after her child was born there was something wrong. She brought it up with her primary and he said it was just the 'baby blues' each time. She finally thought it was all in her mind and was embarassed so she didn't mention it again. She went into psychoses because of not being treated in time. Years later, many incredible treatments later, she still suffers and will never be what she was before. It's odd when you're in your forties to be getting to know a 'new' loved one - new in the sense she will never be like she was - I miss that woman sometimes but the compassion I have for the woman she is now is immense.

I get very angry when people who are not professionals make sweeping generalities and assumptions that can harm. My father will get into the 'what you should do' mode quite a lot. I told him until he has an M.D. from Harvard after his name, keep the mouth quiet about what 'should' be done, please just support her instead.

Well, that was a rant...