Isn't that interesting...

[Eilan]

On a personal level, I have a family member that suffered postpartum depression psychosis, she went untreated for nine months. She knew five days after her child was born there was something wrong. She brought it up with her primary and he said it was just the 'baby blues' each time. She finally thought it was all in her mind and was embarassed so she didn't mention it again. She went into psychoses because of not being treated in time.

Sometimes even the so-called professionals can't get it right. The "baby blues" is NOT the same thing as PPD; to label it as such is as damaging as what ignorant asses like Tom Cruise spew forth, in my opinion.

I had a couple of teary, whiny episodes after my youngest two children were born, but they were NOTHING compared to what I went through with my almost-five-year-old. I would alternate between crying uncontrollably and flying into a rage over the most trivial issues; I knew that my behavior was destructive, but I couldn't control it. My ex left after two months. Although we had other problems, this was the icing on the cake, so to speak. A year or so later, he said, "I thought you hated me." At the time, I DID hate him. I still have a difficult time understanding why he decided to turn his back on me (and our marriage).

What's worse--I never sought help, nor did my ex (or my family and friends) encourage me to do so. Perhaps we were both too proud to admit that I had a problem that was larger than both of us? I don't know. I DID come out of it on my own, but I shudder to think that I could have very easily gotten to the point where I could have harmed myself or my kids.

I get very angry when people who are not professionals make sweeping generalities and assumptions that can harm. My father will get into the 'what you should do' mode quite a lot. I told him until he has an M.D. from Harvard after his name, keep the mouth quiet about what 'should' be done, please just support her instead.

It seems that everybody likes to play armchair quarterback, doesn't it?

 

[Ricwilly]

I think Tom's off his meds.

 

[Cathleen]

I think Tom's off his meds.

You mean vitamins don't you?

 

[Ricwilly]

No, I was speaking of the medication that would prevent stupidity from spewing forth from that hole in his face.

 

[brw02]

Tom Cruise owes an apology to millions of women for his ignorant remarks. We had a murder in my small town 8 years ago where a young mother stabbed her young son over 100 times. Child Protective Services had visited her several times but found no need to investigate further. In custody, she was found to be suffering from PPD, which had gone untreated. If professionals cannot always identify and treat PPD, why should anyone heed the advice of Tom Cruise?

 

[Eilan]

Tom Cruise owes an apology to millions of women for his ignorant remarks. We had a murder in my small town 8 years ago where a young mother stabbed her young son over 100 times. Child Protective Services had visited her several times but found no need to investigate further. In custody, she was found to be suffering from PPD, which had gone untreated. If professionals cannot always identify and treat PPD, why should anyone heed the advice of Tom Cruise?

Andrea Yates, the mother from Texas who drowned her five children about four or so years ago, was suffering from postpartum psychosis. She had attempted suicide at least once, but I don't think anyone ever anticipated that she'd harm her kids.

The response to the Tom Cruise-Brooke Shields debate might well be one of "Who the fuck cares?" And you know what? We SHOULDN'T care about his opinion any more than we'd care about the opinion of our next-door neighbor (or our least-favorite Litster). Unfortunately, celebrities have more "power" than they deserve. People actually buy into the crap spewed by fucktards like Tom Cruise; they believe the bullshit they read in the tabloids.

Some celebrities would do well to stick to their day jobs, particularly when their misguided opinions might do more harm than good.

 

[Ricwilly]

Andrea Yates, the mother from Texas who drowned her five children about four or so years ago, was suffering from postpartum psychosis. She had attempted suicide at least once, but I don't think anyone ever anticipated that she'd harm her kids.

The response to the Tom Cruise-Brooke Shields debate might well be one of "Who the fuck cares?" And you know what? We SHOULDN'T care about his opinion any more than we'd care about the opinion of our next-door neighbor (or our least-favorite Litster). Unfortunately, celebrities have more "power" than they deserve. People actually buy into the crap spewed by fucktards like Tom Cruise; they believe the bullshit they read in the tabloids.

Some celebrities would do well to stick to their day jobs, particularly when their misguided opinions might do more harm than good.

I agree, Tom's an actor. I'd think he could act like he had good sense.

 

[Eilan]

I agree, Tom's an actor. I'd think he could act like he had good sense.

That MIGHT be a bit of a stretch for him.

 

[Nikasha]

Speaking of meds...

Notice how 20 years ago, kids were just hyper. And now we say they have ADD and drug them for it?

I think IMHO it's because too many people don't know how to be parents. All they know is that their parents were "strict," and they're not going to raise their kids that way! So they allow them to run amok in the grocery store, in the shopping center, in the restaurant, etc. and never tell them "No, that's not allowed" or "No, that's inappropriate." No boundaries and no discipline. Discipline is GOOD. We learn to control ourselves through discipline. What? Johnny can't sit in his chair and pay attention during class? He must hav ADD-- drug him! And without discipline, and always getting his way, Johnny's going to have a jarring slap by reality when he gets out into the real world and finds there are REAL deadlines and requirements and expectations and consequences for fucking up.

*Sob* I weep for the future.

 

[Ricwilly]

I'm going to mow my lawn while DJ fills the new aquarium.

 

[Eilan]

Speaking of meds...

Notice how 20 years ago, kids were just hyper. And now we say they have ADD and drug them for it?

I think IMHO it's because too many people don't know how to be parents. All they know is that their parents were "strict," and they're not going to raise their kids that way! So they allow them to run amok in the grocery store, in the shopping center, in the restaurant, etc. and never tell them "No, that's not allowed" or "No, that's inappropriate." No boundaries and no discipline. Discipline is GOOD. We learn to control ourselves through discipline. What? Johnny can't sit in his chair and pay attention during class? He must hav ADD-- drug him! And without discipline, and always getting his way, Johnny's going to have a jarring slap by reality when he gets out into the real world and finds there are REAL deadlines and requirements and expectations and consequences for fucking up.

*Sob* I weep for the future.

I'll admit that I'm a little torn about this issue. On the one hand, there probably are some kids who could benefit from medication, but I also worry that sometimes it's done for other people's convenience instead of because it's best for the child.

If my ex-husband were in first grade nowadays, he'd be on medication for sure. He was one of the brightest kids in his class, and he also got his work finished really quickly. After he'd finish, he'd get up and help the other kids; he wasn't being loud/disruptive, but the teacher hated it. I think that, if I were the teacher, I would have found a way to let him help the other kids (within reason, of course, because they other kids DID have to learn to do the work on their own).

My almost-five-year-old had her kindergarten screening back in April. The teacher who did the testing noted that she was distracted by background noise, but that it wasn't cause for concern. I think that a four-year-old is lucky to have ANY attention span at all. Compared to some of her preschool classmates, my little one does pretty darn well.

A lot of people believe that discipline=spanking. Not so. Discipline may (for some families) include spanking, but it's really much, much more than that. I think a lot of parents try too hard to be their kids' "friends" instead of their parents. My family isn't a democracy, which isn't to say that my kids don't have rights. They also have limits, and my husband (and my ex, in the case of my older girls) enforce those limits as consistently as possible.

 

[SweetErika]

A lot of people believe that discipline=spanking. Not so. Discipline may (for some families) include spanking, but it's really much, much more than that. I think a lot of parents try too hard to be their kids' "friends" instead of their parents. My family isn't a democracy, which isn't to say that my kids don't have rights. They also have limits, and my husband (and my ex, in the case of my older girls) enforce those limits as consistently as possible.

True. My parents used the "Love and Logic" approach to parenting and discipline, and it worked damn well. Pretty much all they had to do was say they were disappointed in my behavior or suspend privileges, and I was sufficiently punished. When done correctly, I think many non-physical techniques can be far more effective long-term than spanking for most kids. So I guess I'm not quick to judge parents who don't just hit when a child is behaving badly.

I was having lunch with a friend the other day, and there was this family behind us. The kids (2 and 4 or so) were constantly screaming, throwing things, and hitting their parents. Each time, the mom would scream back, "TOMMY, WE DON'T SCREAM!" and make threats about not going to restaurants anymore. She also bribed for better behavior with dessert and promises of other special treats. I don't think the problem was that she didn't spank the kids...it was that she was out of control, was trying to bargain with them, and made a bunch of empty threats. Why one of the parents didn't just pick them up and haul them out of the restaurant was beyond me, but I found it to be a good reminder of how NOT to parent when the time comes.

 

[Eilan]

I was having lunch with a friend the other day, and there was this family behind us. The kids (2 and 4 or so) were constantly screaming, throwing things, and hitting their parents. Each time, the mom would scream back, "TOMMY, WE DON'T SCREAM!" and make threats about not going to restaurants anymore. She also bribed for better behavior with dessert and promises of other special treats. I don't think the problem was that she didn't spank the kids...it was that she was out of control, was trying to bargain with them, and made a bunch of empty threats. Why one of the parents didn't just pick them up and haul them out of the restaurant was beyond me, but I found it to be a good reminder of how NOT to parent when the time comes.

I've found that it's just better to leave the kids at home when I can, though that's not always possible.

My oldest daughter had a little recognition ceremony at the end of first grade. Because my husband was working at the time (and couldn't take an hour or so off because he happened to be a little short-staffed that day), I had to take my 4, 2, and 1 year olds to the school by myself. My two year old doesn't quite "get" the concept of whispering. She did well until the very end, when she just started chattering. I leaned down and told her to whisper, and she put her finger on my nose and said (loudly), "No, Mommy! YOU be quiet!" Everybody around us started laughing. Fortunately, it was a short, informal ceremony and there were other small children there.

We occasionally have issues with out 2-year-old not wanting to leave the playground when it's time to go home. My older two girls know that if they throw a fit when it's time to leave, then we don't go back to the playground for a while, but daughter #3 is just starting to get that message. We always give the kids fair warning, like five more minutes or three more times down the slide. We usually stop for milkshakes after we leave the playground. Not to buy their good behavior, but because it's become a weekly "tradition" of sorts. Of course, it has the added bonus of getting the kids to want to leave when it's time.

I think that parents sometimes have unrealistic expectations about their kids' behavior. This past winter, I had to take one of my kids to the doctor. It was flu season, so there was a long wait. One woman had several children with her. Her little boy, who looked to be about 2 years old, was pretty antsy/whiny, and she kept slapping him. I kinda felt sorry for the little guy; kids his age don't do so well when it somes to sitting still in waiting rooms.

 

[Cathleen]

I grew up with a few techniques of discipline, one was 'the look' and the other was 'the belt'. I think because of the belt - my father would strap us with his leather belt, on our bare tush - using 'the look' worked better. I sure didn't want to get strapped so when I saw the look I knew...

I am not a parent but have being the step in mom for sibling's kids. I use my voice to explain the behavior issue - they have to be taught. Kids don't come out with a full mind of instructions (much to the chagrin of one of my brothers), we need to teach them. So if they exhibit inappropriate behavior I say something, to them, quitely... I never say they are bad I say the behavior is bad.

I've also used the loss of a privilege, it works well I think. Kids need limits (heck so do I!), and will thrive in an environment that is safe - some of that safety comes from having rules.

One of my brothers will use corporal punishment with his kids and I see the fear his son has in his eyes. I had that too. I find it interesting that he continues to punish the way we were but the rest of us do not. I cannot imagine strapping a child (or anyone) the way our father did to us. I know part of it 'was the generation or it was the way they were raised' but tough luck, it was overkill and abusive.

I'm glad there is more information available for being a parent and raising a child, hopefully more people will become more enlightened - it is the most important and the most difficult job in the world.

 

[Eilan]

I grew up with a few techniques of discipline, one was 'the look' and the other was 'the belt'. I think because of the belt - my father would strap us with his leather belt, on our bare tush - using 'the look' worked better. I sure didn't want to get strapped so when I saw the look I knew...

As a child, I got the belt--or whatever else was available, usually a shoe house slipper, a hairbrush, or a dish towel. I was kinda mouthy, but I don't remember doing anything really bad. I'd usually get belted for not wanting to practice the piano.

This isn't a disciplinary technique that I've chosen to use on my kids.

I've also used the loss of a privilege, it works well I think. Kids need limits (heck so do I!), and will thrive in an environment that is safe - some of that safety comes from having rules.

I think a lot of parents who have more than one child assume that they can use the same approach on all of their kids. I have to use different appraoches on each of my girls. The "look" works well on my 2-year old. Loss of privileges has always worked like a charm with my oldest daughter. My youngest usually has to be physically removed from whatever she's doing. My almost-kindergartener needs to be "nagged" (for lack of a better word). For example, she likes to get a bunch of toys our of her toyboxes, but she doesn't like to pick them up when she's finished. I have to keep telling her to do it and then I have to make sure she finishes. On occasion, I've had to threaten to get out a trash bag to put the toys in. THAT gets her moving!

All four girls respond quickly to my husband's stern "cop voice," though he doesn't use it often.

 

[Cathleen]

Disciplining comes in as many forms as there are kids. I wasn't much of a problem as a kid and teen. I honestly did learn from the older ones - how not to get caught maybe - but the discipline wasn't always directed to the true guilty one in our home. I remember getting the belt because I cried when one of my brothers got it - it hurt and I was sad for him and when I cried it got me the belt too.

Discilpine needs to be in relation to the offense and age appropriate... I think some folks do it cookie cutter style but that might not be effective in the long run.

 

[SweetErika]

On occasion, I've had to threaten to get out a trash bag to put the toys in. THAT gets her moving!

Deja vu.

 

[Nikasha]

Discilpine needs to be in relation to the offense and age appropriate... I think some folks do it cookie cutter style but that might not be effective in the long run.

I'd be happy to see any discipline at ALL. Once when I was a waitress, a family of 3 little girls and one little boy came in, and the boy was a whining, screaming monster. After the 500th "Michael, if you don't stop that," Mom finally sent him out with his father. The youngest girl said, "That was mean, he's just a little kid."

And out of my mouth came, "You think all these people in here want to listen to him whining and screaming? Don't you think they'd like to have a nice quiet breakfast where they can actually have a conversation with each other?"

The child looked at me like I'd grown three additional heads. Her mother wouldn't look at me at all. Normally, I try to keep that kind of remark to myself, but man oh man.....

 

[Cathleen]

I have to ask - how in hell does one claim insanity on this one? What am I missing?



Teacher Claims Insanity in Sex Case

Monday, July 18, 2005


TAMPA, Fla. — A teacher will claim she was insane due to emotional stress and did not know right from wrong when she had sex numerous times with a 14-year-old student, her attorney said Monday.

"What teacher in her right mind would do something like this?" attorney John Fitzgibbons said after a brief hearing for his client, Debra Lafave, a middle-school reading teacher.

The judge agreed to appoint two mental health professionals to evaluate Lafave, 24. Prosecutors have said a state psychologist already determined Lafave was not insane, while one hired by the defense concluded that she was mentally ill.

Lafave's trial was set for Dec. 5 on four felony counts of lewd and lascivious battery and one count of lewd and lascivious exhibition. Each carries a maximum 15-year prison term.

Fitzgibbons said plea bargaining broke down because prosecutors wanted Lafave to serve too much prison time, though he did not give details.

"To place an attractive young woman in that kind of hell hole is like putting a piece of raw meat in with the lions," said Fitzgibbons. "I'm not sure she would survive."

A state attorney's office spokeswoman didn't immediately return a call seeking comment.

The boy told investigators he and the teacher had sex in a classroom, her house and once in a vehicle while his 15-year-old cousin drove. He said Lafave told him her marriage was in trouble and that she was aroused by the fact that having sex with him was not allowed.

 

[done_got_old]

I have to ask - how in hell does one claim insanity on this one? What am I missing?



Teacher Claims Insanity in Sex Case

Monday, July 18, 2005


TAMPA, Fla. — A teacher will claim she was insane due to emotional stress and did not know right from wrong when she had sex numerous times with a 14-year-old student, her attorney said Monday.

"What teacher in her right mind would do something like this?" attorney John Fitzgibbons said after a brief hearing for his client, Debra Lafave, a middle-school reading teacher.

The judge agreed to appoint two mental health professionals to evaluate Lafave, 24. Prosecutors have said a state psychologist already determined Lafave was not insane, while one hired by the defense concluded that she was mentally ill.

Lafave's trial was set for Dec. 5 on four felony counts of lewd and lascivious battery and one count of lewd and lascivious exhibition. Each carries a maximum 15-year prison term.

Fitzgibbons said plea bargaining broke down because prosecutors wanted Lafave to serve too much prison time, though he did not give details.

"To place an attractive young woman in that kind of hell hole is like putting a piece of raw meat in with the lions," said Fitzgibbons. "I'm not sure she would survive."

A state attorney's office spokeswoman didn't immediately return a call seeking comment.

The boy told investigators he and the teacher had sex in a classroom, her house and once in a vehicle while his 15-year-old cousin drove. He said Lafave told him her marriage was in trouble and that she was aroused by the fact that having sex with him was not allowed.

I guess she was insane only because she was caught.

Fortunately I don't know a teacher who has had sex with a current student. I do know of one who admits to dating former students. (a female teacher)

 

[LadyJeanne]

Insanity...because only an insane adult woman would be aroused by a 14 year old boy?

 

[silverwhisper]

i think ladyjeanne's reaction is exactly what the defense counsel is counting on.

ed

 

[Eilan]

I'm amused by the fact that her attorney is trying to use her looks as a reason to reduce/eliminate her prison sentence.

 

[Ricwilly]

Seems like a crazy idea to me.

 

[Cathleen]

I'm amused by the fact that her attorney is trying to use her looks as a reason to reduce/eliminate her prison sentence.

I thought that was not only interesting but a very bad move.