A Desert Rose
Simply Charming Elsewhere
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Re: Re: Re: In my not so humble opinion
Excellent points, Eb.
Ebonyfire said:
Excellent points, Eb.
Jealousy....bad or convenient?
- Thread starter catalina_francisco
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Netzach
>semiotics?
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If I may summarize, N cuts the sub male some slack, 'knowing' he'll come back (and if not, it's better he be elsewhere, anyway).
She cuts herself a lot of slack, similarly, but, calls it 'erotic friendship' and makes it clear that this is not a contemplated replacement of the relationship with her sub male.
In short, there's a kind of symmetry. BUT the question is, is she obigated in that direction? Or is it, as she's said elsewhere, _at her pleasure_, say, like allowing the sub an ice cream?
Yeah, I've said that elsewhere. But let's face it, if my fucking around really really BOTHERED M, we'd be in hot relationship water, I picked him for some very specific reasons, because I'm certainly not going to change that. He knows it, he knew it the moment we started discussing this stuff.
Thank God I'm 29 and have a fucking clue about some of the basics about me, it's all so much quicker and easier than when I was 19 and had my head up my ass.
My first impulse is to say I'm not obligated as "the Domme" but I say fuck being "the Domme" in this instance. Then I think about it, and I think about who M is and who I am and why it works and I realize that I am acting to preserve one of M's most endearing traits to me, his being bisexual and capable of having this kind of relationship with me.
Bi and able to have an open relationship those were non-negotiables for me in terms of life partnership and if I had to wait till the ends of the earth for that I'd still be living in a studio apt. solo had I not found it, fucking the odd fuckbuddy. Now the only things that have changed are that I'm more mellow because I have the stability M brings, and the apt is 2 bedroom. I'm still happy, individualistic, and getting laid.
So is that all SO stuff or is that taking care of an individual in a manner appropriate to that individual? Thereby making it Domme stuff, depending on your definition. I think it's Domme/leadership stuff. It's not about permitting or disallowing in some icky gym coach way, it's about paying attention to the individual desires at play and wanting them to flourish. It's about good pet maintenance.
I'm trying to think about where jealousy would fit in with a live-out slave, male OR female, and the answer I think of most readily is "I don't care what you do when you're not with me." Harsh, but true. The last thing I need is to have to think about a slave/live out more than is useful to me. If they want to get beaten by Sally the Pro because I've not called and their needs are unmet, bravo and go for it.
I've been jealous. I have. I have to say I've not been that kind of jealous in about five or six years, an ex girlfriend taught me how much more FUN you can have when you switch that mindset and I've not looked back.
I believe there is, if indeed some type of erotic dominance is at issue. Asymmetry (except on pleasure [permission] of [the] top) is there by definition. Of course, we have 'bottom line' concerns for 'welfare' in the broad sense. In simple terms, the basic _needs_ of each person. And as LTR says, there are extreme, obsessive, pathological forms of jealousy that might interfere with psychic health.
At the same time, [if] the dom/me [dominates, then] by definition, there is to be a degree of imposition of _desire_. If the dom/me really wants a quiet evening for personal pursuits, that takes precedence over the subs desire to go the the movies together.
The dom/me's desire for another, is, imo, part of that prerogative
(not in the sense of 'I will throw this in my partner's face and drive them crazy'-- or 'I will incite an obsessive and deranging degree of jealousy').
It's true, as N say, that the sub's desire for another may well be viewed as not meriting hindrance. Indeed the 'security' of a healthy dom/me {or anyone in a solid relationship} should not be affected by learning of a vagrant desire in the sub {or other}. At the same time, that desire is without 'inherent right' to satisfaction, just as the desire to leave home for the evening, avoid chores, and entertain oneself.
I guess in some instances. You could order just about anything your mind dreams up, Pure, but if you set your sub up for failure, toss 'em out and bitch about how disobedient they are then I don't think that's especially effective Domination and I see it all the time.
As I see it, I know poly/multi/queer/kinky/slut from BEING that way, and you know what?
Nothing can blackmail me or force me out of being that way. I would not try to do that to someone else for any damn reason I can think of and expect respect from them, IF they are wired that way, and in my mind this one is a question of wiring. Order away, you will never successfully change these funadmentals without doing damage. To be fair, you're never going to take a woman hard wired for exclusivity and have her *happy* in a non-exclusive relationship, it's just how it is. Some guys are fine with unhappy women, that's the bottom line.
I take Eb's approach, I lay it on the line, if it's not matching up if it doesn't sound good to you, then thank you nice to know you, hope you find it. Ta ta. If I sense desire for exclusivity I try and point them towards the single and looking for their one and only ladies I know if I like their vibe.
She cuts herself a lot of slack, similarly, but, calls it 'erotic friendship' and makes it clear that this is not a contemplated replacement of the relationship with her sub male.
In short, there's a kind of symmetry. BUT the question is, is she obigated in that direction? Or is it, as she's said elsewhere, _at her pleasure_, say, like allowing the sub an ice cream?
Yeah, I've said that elsewhere. But let's face it, if my fucking around really really BOTHERED M, we'd be in hot relationship water, I picked him for some very specific reasons, because I'm certainly not going to change that. He knows it, he knew it the moment we started discussing this stuff.
Thank God I'm 29 and have a fucking clue about some of the basics about me, it's all so much quicker and easier than when I was 19 and had my head up my ass.
My first impulse is to say I'm not obligated as "the Domme" but I say fuck being "the Domme" in this instance. Then I think about it, and I think about who M is and who I am and why it works and I realize that I am acting to preserve one of M's most endearing traits to me, his being bisexual and capable of having this kind of relationship with me.
Bi and able to have an open relationship those were non-negotiables for me in terms of life partnership and if I had to wait till the ends of the earth for that I'd still be living in a studio apt. solo had I not found it, fucking the odd fuckbuddy. Now the only things that have changed are that I'm more mellow because I have the stability M brings, and the apt is 2 bedroom. I'm still happy, individualistic, and getting laid.
So is that all SO stuff or is that taking care of an individual in a manner appropriate to that individual? Thereby making it Domme stuff, depending on your definition. I think it's Domme/leadership stuff. It's not about permitting or disallowing in some icky gym coach way, it's about paying attention to the individual desires at play and wanting them to flourish. It's about good pet maintenance.
I'm trying to think about where jealousy would fit in with a live-out slave, male OR female, and the answer I think of most readily is "I don't care what you do when you're not with me." Harsh, but true. The last thing I need is to have to think about a slave/live out more than is useful to me. If they want to get beaten by Sally the Pro because I've not called and their needs are unmet, bravo and go for it.
I've been jealous. I have. I have to say I've not been that kind of jealous in about five or six years, an ex girlfriend taught me how much more FUN you can have when you switch that mindset and I've not looked back.
I believe there is, if indeed some type of erotic dominance is at issue. Asymmetry (except on pleasure [permission] of [the] top) is there by definition. Of course, we have 'bottom line' concerns for 'welfare' in the broad sense. In simple terms, the basic _needs_ of each person. And as LTR says, there are extreme, obsessive, pathological forms of jealousy that might interfere with psychic health.
At the same time, [if] the dom/me [dominates, then] by definition, there is to be a degree of imposition of _desire_. If the dom/me really wants a quiet evening for personal pursuits, that takes precedence over the subs desire to go the the movies together.
The dom/me's desire for another, is, imo, part of that prerogative
(not in the sense of 'I will throw this in my partner's face and drive them crazy'-- or 'I will incite an obsessive and deranging degree of jealousy').
It's true, as N say, that the sub's desire for another may well be viewed as not meriting hindrance. Indeed the 'security' of a healthy dom/me {or anyone in a solid relationship} should not be affected by learning of a vagrant desire in the sub {or other}. At the same time, that desire is without 'inherent right' to satisfaction, just as the desire to leave home for the evening, avoid chores, and entertain oneself.
I guess in some instances. You could order just about anything your mind dreams up, Pure, but if you set your sub up for failure, toss 'em out and bitch about how disobedient they are then I don't think that's especially effective Domination and I see it all the time.
As I see it, I know poly/multi/queer/kinky/slut from BEING that way, and you know what?
Nothing can blackmail me or force me out of being that way. I would not try to do that to someone else for any damn reason I can think of and expect respect from them, IF they are wired that way, and in my mind this one is a question of wiring. Order away, you will never successfully change these funadmentals without doing damage. To be fair, you're never going to take a woman hard wired for exclusivity and have her *happy* in a non-exclusive relationship, it's just how it is. Some guys are fine with unhappy women, that's the bottom line.
I take Eb's approach, I lay it on the line, if it's not matching up if it doesn't sound good to you, then thank you nice to know you, hope you find it. Ta ta. If I sense desire for exclusivity I try and point them towards the single and looking for their one and only ladies I know if I like their vibe.
Netzach
>semiotics?
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Re: Generally speaking
Heh. I have to chuckle reading this, I get asked to do scenes like that all the time. The assumption is that I won't get under the girls' skin or into her head as much and that I'm not a threat because I haven't got a dick, and being a woman I'm a great facilitator.
Believe it or not, in a scene I will pee on any tree put in front of me, and if a guy wants his scene run a specific way he should find another sub to do it. My response these days is "and I get what out of this?"
When I was younger and stupider I would do these kinda numbers, did it twice. Both times the femsubs were wide-eyed with shock and talking to me afterwards were guilt ridden about the whole thing because I got in their head, "better than (Dom)" or made them do stuff they didn't think they could or would blah blah, and would I pleeeeze do it again. And it made me hard and happy as any guy that the tree reeked of ME.
Caveat emptor.
Croctden said:
Heh. I have to chuckle reading this, I get asked to do scenes like that all the time. The assumption is that I won't get under the girls' skin or into her head as much and that I'm not a threat because I haven't got a dick, and being a woman I'm a great facilitator.
Believe it or not, in a scene I will pee on any tree put in front of me, and if a guy wants his scene run a specific way he should find another sub to do it. My response these days is "and I get what out of this?"
When I was younger and stupider I would do these kinda numbers, did it twice. Both times the femsubs were wide-eyed with shock and talking to me afterwards were guilt ridden about the whole thing because I got in their head, "better than (Dom)" or made them do stuff they didn't think they could or would blah blah, and would I pleeeeze do it again. And it made me hard and happy as any guy that the tree reeked of ME.
Caveat emptor.
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Netzach said,
Believe it or not, in a scene I will pee on any tree put in front of me,
A classic line.
and if a guy wants his scene run a specific way he should find another sub{top?} to do it. My response these days is "and I get what out of this?"
When I was younger and stupider I would do these kinda numbers, did it twice. Both times the femsubs were wide-eyed with shock and talking to me afterwards were guilt ridden about the whole thing because I got in their head, "better than (Dom)" or made them do stuff they didn't think they could or would blah blah, and would I pleeeeze do it again. And it made me hard and happy as any guy that the tree reeked of ME.
Caveat emptor.
-----
You are a sick and dangerous pervert. Which is why I like you.
Believe it or not, in a scene I will pee on any tree put in front of me,
A classic line.
and if a guy wants his scene run a specific way he should find another sub{top?} to do it. My response these days is "and I get what out of this?"
When I was younger and stupider I would do these kinda numbers, did it twice. Both times the femsubs were wide-eyed with shock and talking to me afterwards were guilt ridden about the whole thing because I got in their head, "better than (Dom)" or made them do stuff they didn't think they could or would blah blah, and would I pleeeeze do it again. And it made me hard and happy as any guy that the tree reeked of ME.
Caveat emptor.
-----
You are a sick and dangerous pervert. Which is why I like you.
catalina_francisco
Happily insatiable always
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Netzach, as usual your words pack punch without abuse, life without arrogance, seriousness with a talented and appropriate touch of humour, but most of all the naked honesty that never fails to light up any thread and illuminate the issues most of us think about. Thanks as always.
Catalina
Catalina
catalina_francisco
Happily insatiable always
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There is a lot to be said about this question but I will be my usual blunt self and just give my opinion as if it is the word of God and later will apologize to anyone who has been offended by me. 
To me the word fair or unfair does not come into a BDSM relationship, there is by definition a hierarchy set in place which in effect removes all the fairness out of it. If I want something from my partner I take it. Like it or not this is the reality for most dominants. We are dominant so it is only natural that our opinion counts for more than that of our partner’s, it is a logical effect of the relationship our partners go into with us. So yes would I want to fuck anyone else I would have the fullest right as I also would have the fullest right to do so and not let my SO play with anyone else.
That is my right and when a sub enters in a relationship with me this is made clear. I decide what we do and how we do it. Any freedom my partner has is an illusion created by me and I am able to remove it whenever I want. Although that is my right there exists also something else, something even more important than my rights or the obligations of my slave.
Being a Dominant and having absolute control over my partner I have also gained a lot of responsibility over her mental and physical health. So even if I have the fullest right to do whatever I want I still have to take into account the feelings of my partner.
Jealousy does play a role in this as much as any other feelings. If jealousy sticks up its ugly little green face than we need to deal with it before it becomes a problem. I can not just say I am the Dominant I have the right to do whatever I want and if you are not happy with it piss off. The moment we entered in a relationship I took it upon myself to take care of my partner, so the thought of just telling her to piss off because she is jealous or because she does not agree with me does not come to my mind. I would discuss her feelings, explain to her my feelings, set a target and then agree with her how we can reach the target in a way that is not going to hurt her mentally or physically.
Francisco.
To me the word fair or unfair does not come into a BDSM relationship, there is by definition a hierarchy set in place which in effect removes all the fairness out of it. If I want something from my partner I take it. Like it or not this is the reality for most dominants. We are dominant so it is only natural that our opinion counts for more than that of our partner’s, it is a logical effect of the relationship our partners go into with us. So yes would I want to fuck anyone else I would have the fullest right as I also would have the fullest right to do so and not let my SO play with anyone else.
That is my right and when a sub enters in a relationship with me this is made clear. I decide what we do and how we do it. Any freedom my partner has is an illusion created by me and I am able to remove it whenever I want. Although that is my right there exists also something else, something even more important than my rights or the obligations of my slave.
Being a Dominant and having absolute control over my partner I have also gained a lot of responsibility over her mental and physical health. So even if I have the fullest right to do whatever I want I still have to take into account the feelings of my partner.
Jealousy does play a role in this as much as any other feelings. If jealousy sticks up its ugly little green face than we need to deal with it before it becomes a problem. I can not just say I am the Dominant I have the right to do whatever I want and if you are not happy with it piss off. The moment we entered in a relationship I took it upon myself to take care of my partner, so the thought of just telling her to piss off because she is jealous or because she does not agree with me does not come to my mind. I would discuss her feelings, explain to her my feelings, set a target and then agree with her how we can reach the target in a way that is not going to hurt her mentally or physically.
Francisco.
s'lara
Literotica Guru
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lurked long enough.
Jealousy, despite sessions of talking it through and defining the acts that brought it about, is and will always be a present in a relationship between two (or three, take your pick) people. No matter what the terms of the relationship are, feelings develop in the possessive and force the old dog to come out and mark off territory simply because it is instinct to do so.
"This is mine and not yours so beat it."
Possessiveness runs that particular engine. Now, accepted definitions of ownership makes this particular trait so interesting in the D/s dynamic.
Master/Mistress says: This is mine. Essentially, I choose whether I share. I am also safe in my option not to share if it pleases me.
sub/slave says: I am His/Hers, all that They require is my bidding, and my choices are given at Their discretion. i am the only one who can serve Him/Her in the way that They need. This is true because He/She picked me.
Enter time, repetition, and just plain ol' exercise of power.
Master/Mistress introduces new sub/slave to the mix and my, my, my ... that possessive trait goes haywire. Doubt, irritation, unexplained feelings of worthlessness run wild. Vice versa if Your submissive can't seem to get a play session with another Dom/me out of their head.
For those who have open relationships, the jealousy enters if emotional attachments are made outside the present relationship. Well sure, gratification can be had outside of the shared bedroom, but if emotional ties are created after the physical is over, look out because the hulk button is about to be pushed.
Since i really need to end this ramble, i'll just say that it is unrealistic to think jealousy is banished because feelings have been assuaged and doubts were neatly packed away. Jealousy can and will reappear like a stubborn weed. What is realistic is taking its existence into account and girding yourselves for the ride when it does make an appearance. Otherwise, you set yourself up for a continuous and always surprising backhand across the face.
lara
Jealousy, despite sessions of talking it through and defining the acts that brought it about, is and will always be a present in a relationship between two (or three, take your pick) people. No matter what the terms of the relationship are, feelings develop in the possessive and force the old dog to come out and mark off territory simply because it is instinct to do so.
"This is mine and not yours so beat it."
Possessiveness runs that particular engine. Now, accepted definitions of ownership makes this particular trait so interesting in the D/s dynamic.
Master/Mistress says: This is mine. Essentially, I choose whether I share. I am also safe in my option not to share if it pleases me.
sub/slave says: I am His/Hers, all that They require is my bidding, and my choices are given at Their discretion. i am the only one who can serve Him/Her in the way that They need. This is true because He/She picked me.
Enter time, repetition, and just plain ol' exercise of power.
Master/Mistress introduces new sub/slave to the mix and my, my, my ... that possessive trait goes haywire. Doubt, irritation, unexplained feelings of worthlessness run wild. Vice versa if Your submissive can't seem to get a play session with another Dom/me out of their head.
For those who have open relationships, the jealousy enters if emotional attachments are made outside the present relationship. Well sure, gratification can be had outside of the shared bedroom, but if emotional ties are created after the physical is over, look out because the hulk button is about to be pushed.
Since i really need to end this ramble, i'll just say that it is unrealistic to think jealousy is banished because feelings have been assuaged and doubts were neatly packed away. Jealousy can and will reappear like a stubborn weed. What is realistic is taking its existence into account and girding yourselves for the ride when it does make an appearance. Otherwise, you set yourself up for a continuous and always surprising backhand across the face.
lara
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snoozebutton
Keeper of the cheese.
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Jealousy's head can be raised by many things not just the change of the dynamic of the relationship. You can't forget that a submissive is always going to chase their masters perfect submissive. The one that's in their head that he/she compares him/her to when they are displeased or planning the perfect scene. It is a race they will running their entire life as moods and needs change with time. That above all others is the hardest to overcome as a Dom/Domme forgets sometimes that they have to keep their submissive abreast of changes in the aspects of the lifestyle they like and dislike. It is impossible to chase a chimera unless your submissive has the knowledge and tools to do so.
MissTaken
Biker Chick
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Re: We must remember
Damn, girl!
You are good!
I would only suggest that in episodes that are short term and managed well, is it possible that in a poly relationship, one sub's mild jealousy or envy over another may motivate him or her to do better?
Or not?
Ebonyfire said:
Damn, girl!
You are good!
I would only suggest that in episodes that are short term and managed well, is it possible that in a poly relationship, one sub's mild jealousy or envy over another may motivate him or her to do better?
Or not?
Netzach
>semiotics?
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Eb--
I'm really into girls.
Girls are impossible.
The only reason I can casually fuckbuddy with B is because we both have primary partners, otherwise there'd be drama between us I just know it. B is the FIRST girl I have been with of about four who DID not and IS not going to be calling me to say "you, me, an apartment and a dog...maybe babies" after the first date. Not kidding, FIRST date.
B's primary is warming to the idea, bumpy road, lots of drama. She's a girl. Her drama is not going to be my drama though, B has to handle her and her issues as she sees fit.
My boy is blissfully unconcerned. You know it's no biggie when a guy can come home, find two girls rolling around in bed and start making dinner instead of voyeuristically being an ass. I have him well trained.
He's the same way if I'm rolling around with G, it's not a big deal.
Girls are so different, but then I remember I am one, so I can't be the only one not into making myself miserable with jealousy.
I'm really into girls.
Girls are impossible.
The only reason I can casually fuckbuddy with B is because we both have primary partners, otherwise there'd be drama between us I just know it. B is the FIRST girl I have been with of about four who DID not and IS not going to be calling me to say "you, me, an apartment and a dog...maybe babies" after the first date. Not kidding, FIRST date.
B's primary is warming to the idea, bumpy road, lots of drama. She's a girl. Her drama is not going to be my drama though, B has to handle her and her issues as she sees fit.
My boy is blissfully unconcerned. You know it's no biggie when a guy can come home, find two girls rolling around in bed and start making dinner instead of voyeuristically being an ass. I have him well trained.
He's the same way if I'm rolling around with G, it's not a big deal.
Girls are so different, but then I remember I am one, so I can't be the only one not into making myself miserable with jealousy.
misstoy_101
Toy
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- Jun 30, 2003
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“Jealousy is the measure of insecurity in a relationship not the amount of love” ~Unknown Author
I would have to agree with this statement. Sir and I have no jealousy between us or for us. I get the computer and he gets the remote. Sir does not ask nor do I question. There is no room for doubts between us.
I would have to agree with this statement. Sir and I have no jealousy between us or for us. I get the computer and he gets the remote. Sir does not ask nor do I question. There is no room for doubts between us.
snoozebutton
Keeper of the cheese.
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Ebonyfire said:
True I hate to make blanket generalazations.
Ebonyfire
Ball Stretcher
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Re: Re: We must remember
I can say that jealousy is something I am not going to tolerate. I find (and this is My experience not anyone else's) that jealousy is just a symptom of an underlying problem. I may or may not care to delve that deep to find out what a sub's issues are. It all depends on the sub.
MissTaken said:
I can say that jealousy is something I am not going to tolerate. I find (and this is My experience not anyone else's) that jealousy is just a symptom of an underlying problem. I may or may not care to delve that deep to find out what a sub's issues are. It all depends on the sub.
snoozebutton
Keeper of the cheese.
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Ebonyfire said:
I have seen it yes. But I have always went and worked it out so I knew what the problem was that triggered it.
TwistaFate
Really Really Experienced
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Jealousy is always a bad thing, it never turns out right
Luna_Wolf72
CinnaWolf circa 2023
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I can only speak for me...
In every case where i have experienced jealousy...it was the doing of the other person and not my own. By nature, i am an honest up-front person. I do not believe that jealousy should ever enter into a good relationship. HOWEVER, the moment the person starts to hide things, or blow you off or act as if what you feel is no longer important...well then that is when (for me) jealousy rears it's ugly head.
In an open BDSM relationship with all rules laid out for everyone to understand (or even in a *nilla* relationship) there should be no reason for hiding anything. Personally, people can scream about the Dom/me doing what is best for THEM but if they are adult enough to claim that title than they should be adult enough to be honest.
There should not ever be a statement of *it's my way or go* unless it was discussed before the relationship was entered into.
No matter how people claim to be above all of that...being hurt and abused (mentally or emotionally) will cause a normal person to fly into a jealous fit at the drop of a hat. If Honesty and Integrity are truly a part of the equation than there is never a need for that particular emotion. It is only when the other person lies or makes lateral decisions that affect all involved...that i feel any sort of jealousy.
JMHO
brat princess
In every case where i have experienced jealousy...it was the doing of the other person and not my own. By nature, i am an honest up-front person. I do not believe that jealousy should ever enter into a good relationship. HOWEVER, the moment the person starts to hide things, or blow you off or act as if what you feel is no longer important...well then that is when (for me) jealousy rears it's ugly head.
In an open BDSM relationship with all rules laid out for everyone to understand (or even in a *nilla* relationship) there should be no reason for hiding anything. Personally, people can scream about the Dom/me doing what is best for THEM but if they are adult enough to claim that title than they should be adult enough to be honest.
There should not ever be a statement of *it's my way or go* unless it was discussed before the relationship was entered into.
No matter how people claim to be above all of that...being hurt and abused (mentally or emotionally) will cause a normal person to fly into a jealous fit at the drop of a hat. If Honesty and Integrity are truly a part of the equation than there is never a need for that particular emotion. It is only when the other person lies or makes lateral decisions that affect all involved...that i feel any sort of jealousy.
JMHO
brat princess
James G 5
Holding Lit together
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s'lara said:
Jealousy is LEARNED
It can be UNlearned
By most people, anyway
Does that mean that you'll never have bits of it? Probably not, it's too ingrained in most people
But it CAN be dealt with
I will, for the umpteenth time, urge folsk to read "The Ethical Slut" which has a HUGE great section on it
Folks, love is NOT about ownership or possesion
BDSM maybe, but not love
And even within the ownership context ot BDSM it can be dealt with
