Keeping India British: the non-Americacentric thread

[Guest]

The accents are fine (as are others, e.g., Russian, Italian and Spanish for me); I also enjoy learning about the various dialects and slang, but I appreciate the history and literature most.

These are just opinions, but I've always thought the stereotypical British repression endearing (and thank god, false, or rather, not so easily labeled). Brits can also be uniquely rude and offputting; I envy that (also have to learn how to deal with it ).

I have yet to visit the land but I intend to in the not too distant future. My choice of places to see will mostly be based on those I've become familiar with through history and literature.

I need also add the opinion that I cannot rank the best American actors alongside the British. They outrank us in English speaking dramatics. Frankly, I think it has especially to do with them being better readers, learning the language with a more substantial foundation than us, and not having much to do with the method. I also cannot rank any American writer alongside the Brits.

Besides seeing my favourite Shakespeare plays performed, if I had use of a time-machine I would love to sit next to Oscar Wilde at a dinner party, be a member of Byron's household in Italy, a friend of Wm. Blake's wife, and some part of Va. Woolf's circle.

Perdita

 

[oggbashan]

I need also add the opinion that I cannot rank the best American actors alongside the British. They outrank us in English speaking dramatics. Frankly, I think it has especially to do with them being better readers, learning the language with a more substantial foundation than us, and not having much to do with the method. I also cannot rank any American writer alongside the Brits.
Perdita

I am sorry, Perdita, but many of the current generation are less well read in English Literature than many Americans. (Or Germans, French etc.).

It is an effect of politicians meddling with school curricula since the 1960s. Academic excellence was de-emphasised, grammar derided, and history de-bunked.

The generations educated in the 1960s, 70s and 80s have had to learn many things after they have left school. Employers and Universities have been complaining about academic standards for decades.

Og

 

[Guest]

Thank you for the clarification, Ogg. I don't even know the current generation of any populace. The British actors I've seen (on film or in person) always speak as if they know what they are saying, not such a common thing in drama (on stage or film).

I'm very sorry to hear about the academic standards. My Brit friends in real life are closer to my age so I was not aware of this.

Perdita

 

[shereads]

A pair of elderly laides - came out of the place and said to us "Awww, can you say something for us in your cute english accent?"

My friend turned around to them and said, "Yeah. Fack orf."

I still laugh about that

Granny still cries herself to sleep at night in the nursing home. She and Auntie had saved all their lives for that trip; when the two of them returned to their hotel and asked the concierge what "fack orf" means, Auntie had a coronary and died on the spot. Granny will get over it someday, maybe; she's 98, but she's a spunky old thing.



She says hello.

 

[shereads]

Why?

What was funny with your friend being rude to older women?

In France, the insult itself wouldn't have been funny. But if one of raphy's friends was tall and the other very short, and they slapped each other and fell down, it would go down in the annals of French humor as a benchmark moment.



Perdita, I think you're unfair to American writers. It's not as if you can compare style-for-style and word-for-word. Joan Didion, for example, is someone I think of as a uniquely American writer. She conserves words, so the English can keep their favorites and re-use them. Also, when comparing cultural achievements, it's important to counter our natural inferiority in the entertainment industry with "Benny Hill."

Britfolk, your accents are worth a fortune. I used to get e-mails from someone I met at a writer's site. When I found out he was irish, and began hearing his messages with that lilting accent, the same words suddenly seemed more important. We're terribly envious of your accents.

The British import that most affected my formative years was The Avengers with Patrick MacNee and Dame Diana Rigg, when she was pre-dame. I was a teenager when ABC began running the series here and I thought Steed was the sexiest man on the planet. There was something wicked just beneath the ever-so-polite surface. Even when he slaughtered a roomful of bad guys, it was done with style and very often with an apology and a raised eyebrow. His umbrella was lethal.

I read somewhere recently that when ABC executives debated buying episodes of The Avengers, it was enormously controversial because the Diana Rigg character fought like a man. A specific objection by one American network executive was "she rescues him as often as he rescues her." Shocking!

I still think of Mrs. Peel as the first female role model in pop culture who was feminine without being weak and needy.

 

[shereads]

Having married the love child of a British war bride

Becoming curioser and curiouser about this tale...Won't ask why you felt the need to default to "boiled meats," but I'd love to hear about your romance with the love child of a British war bride.

This begs to be a TV movie on (warning: American pop culture reference) The Lifetime Network.*





*Famous/infamous in USA for pandering to women with chick flicks. If a good woman is done wrong and/or has a rare disease, but triumphs over adversity and in doing so meets Mr. Right, it's a Lifetime movie.

 

[Guest]

Saying "Fack orf" is funny, because 99.9% of British people don't talk like that. Most Americans - as we see it - think we do.

We talk a bit loik this, innit? Oi you fuckin' tosser, watchu lookin' ayt?

Lou - of perfect diction.

(Yeah, right! )

 

[Guest]

Hey, I resemble that remark...

Raph, with authentic Welsh valleys accent.

Awww, I'm sorry sweetie!

I just picked a city out of the air, which does have a very broad, non-typically perceived, British accent.

I know, Welsh has been around for centuries, but even a lot of us English folk don't understand you - when you are talking in English.

Lou

 

[raphy]

Saying "Fack orf" is funny, because 99.9% of British people don't talk like that. Most Americans - as we see it - think we do.

We talk a bit loik this, innit? Oi you fuckin' tosser, watchu lookin' ayt?

Lou - of perfect diction.

(Yeah, right! )

Aaah, Loulou beat me to the reply.

It was also funny because adult Britons don't much like being told they have a 'cute little english accent'

I think he gave the response he gave because people would have complained a bit if he'd said "Cute? I'll show you what's cute," and bitchslapped her in the middle of London.

British repression? Well, maybe. Cultures take centuries to evolve, and whilst the free-wheelin' 60s and 70s may have helped, I think being bombed by the Germans in WW2 set us back a fair bit.

And Ogg, the average local comprehensive may be like that, but I have it on good authority that public schools are as good as they ever were.

Raph, loving life in the states, but always proud to be one of her Majesty's subjects.

 

[Guest]

Perdita, I think you're unfair to American writers. It's not as if you can compare style-for-style and word-for-word. Joan Didion, for example, is someone I think of as a uniquely American writer.
...
We're terribly envious of your accents.
...
I still think of Mrs. Peel as the first female role model in pop culture who was feminine without being weak and needy.

Fairness has nothing to do with it. Didion is what I call a minor writer, very minor. Of course I take 'American' into consideration re style, etc., as I do when I judge Tolstoy or Dante among the English writers. I was remiss though and would uphold Henry James and Emily Dickinson against many a great Brit. author. Otherwise, there are no great American novels outside James' works. (I know, Lit. has Hemingway, Twain, Poe and Leonard fans, but I daresay I've read more 'literature' than anyone here so I will be a snob about it.)

I am not envious of anyone's accent, simply enjoy them; though Yorkshire is very tough to get (but worth it).

Yeah, Mrs Peel was a fine influence on my early 20s psyche. Which reminds me. I think British women age better than Americans. I mean they seem to 'get it' better. Of course I'm only going by a few women in real life and those who are celebrities. I think of Diana Rigg, Judy Dench and Helen Mirren - all near my age and as beautiful (naturally) as I'd like to be thought of.

Perdita

 

[Icingsugar]

Aaah, Loulou beat me to the reply.

It was also funny because adult Britons don't much like being told they have a 'cute little english accent'

I think he gave the response he gave because people would have complained a bit if he'd said "Cute? I'll show you what's cute," and bitchslapped her in the middle of London.

I thought it was already established that when Americans say "cute" they don't mean...well...cute.

 

[shereads]

The generations educated in the 1960s, 70s and 80s have had to learn many things after they have left school. Employers and Universities have been complaining about academic standards for decades.

I think we keep ours undereducated to maintain a healthy supply of minimum-wage workers.

 

[shereads]

I think of Diana Rigg, Judy Dench and Helen Mirren - all near my age and as beautiful (naturally) as I'd like to be thought of.

Perdita

It's criminal that when they made the godawful 90's film version of The Avengers, no one thought to cast the two originals. A sexy reunion of two older people, icons of 60's style, would have been timely and unexpected; it would have been easy enough to make them mentors of a younger couple, with the necessary bounce to counter the sag.

Was Steed a metrosexual? I suspect so, though men were less open about metrosexuality back then.

For gracefully aging, Perdita, we have Lauren Bacall who up until very recently was still highly sought for voice-over work; and we had Katherine Hepburn, who was second to none.

 

[raphy]

Yeah, Mrs Peel was a fine influence on my early 20s psyche. Which reminds me. I think British women age better than Americans. I mean they seem to 'get it' better. Of course I'm only going by a few women in real life and those who are celebrities. I think of Diana Rigg, Judy Dench and Helen Mirren - all near my age and as beautiful (naturally) as I'd like to be thought of.

Perdita

And let's not forget Vanessa Redgrace.

Raph, who loves Diana Rigg to bits, but can't bring himself to forgive her for acting (albeit briefly) in that Bond movie.

 

[Guest]

For gracefully aging, Perdita, we have Lauren Bacall who up until very recently was still highly sought for voice-over work; and we had Katherine Hepburn, who was second to none.

Yes, but they are like 1% of filmstars who do so. It's not just the Brits, though, in general European women take care of themselves better as whole persons, inside and out.

When I am in Europe I feel like a real woman. Men notice me, attend to me. Here, I am invisible.

Perdita

 

[shereads]

Didion is what I call a minor writer, very minor.

Well, she uses a lot of words that I have to look up. (She's multisyllabic, you know.)

 

[shereads]

When I am in Europe I feel like a real woman. Men notice me, attend to me. Here, I am invisible.

In Europe, you are an exotic foreign flower. Which can't be a bad thing.

 

[Dirt Man]

Fairness has nothing to do with it. Didion is what I call a minor writer, very minor. Of course I take 'American' into consideration re style, etc., as I do when I judge Tolstoy or Dante among the English writers. I was remiss though and would uphold Henry James and Emily Dickinson against many a great Brit. author. Otherwise, there are no great American novels outside James' works. (I know, Lit. has Hemingway, Twain, Poe and Leonard fans, but I daresay I've read more 'literature' than anyone here so I will be a snob about it.)

I am not envious of anyone's accent, simply enjoy them; though Yorkshire is very tough to get (but worth it).

Yeah, Mrs Peel was a fine influence on my early 20s psyche. Which reminds me. I think British women age better than Americans. I mean they seem to 'get it' better. Of course I'm only going by a few women in real life and those who are celebrities. I think of Diana Rigg, Judy Dench and Helen Mirren - all near my age and as beautiful (naturally) as I'd like to be thought of.

Perdita

Yeah, Emerson, Whittier, Longfellow, and Irving are blahsay. And that Morgan Fairchild, what a dog, eh. She's almost as hard on the eyes now as Elizabeth Taylor, or Joan Collins. Sigh, yes, I guess you are one of the euro groupy snobs, aren't you. But we still love ya.

As Always
I Am the
Dirt Man

 

[Guest]

In Europe, you are an exotic foreign flower. Which can't be a bad thing.

Hey, I grew up exotic in Detroit when it was strictly black and white. You can guess with whom I felt at home, but I was still alien to most. The best compliment I received overseas was from an older Veneziana who said I didn't look like a tourist.

Perdita

p.s. Yeah, Dirt, I'm a proud literary snob, thanks for the luv

 

[snooper]

... As far as I'm aware the troops that make up the Royal Ghurka Regiment are drawn almost exclusively from the Indian sub-continent. ...

They are drawn exclusively from the Kingdom of Nepal. In the UK they hae a base at Church Crookham and are known by the locals as "The Little Gentlemen" because when they go out on the town they are always smartly dressed and very polite.

I was discussing them with a six foot four, eighteen stone (252 lbs) member of 2 Para (paratrooper) and he said that nobody ever makes trouble with the Ghurkas if it is at all possible to avoid it. When asked why he replied "They only play for keeps."

When God first chose a Gurkha, as a vessel of His Own
He took a chunk of cheerfulness and laid on flesh and bone
A face, well some deny it, but a soul that no one could
For anyone who’s seen it, wishes his was half as good.

Faith, there’s little small about him, save the question of his size
From the mountains which begat him, to the laughter in his eyes
His sport, his love, his courage, Preserve the sterling ring
Of a simple minded hillman, with the manners of a king

He gave of his thousands, and he hasn’t finished yet
There’s never been a murmur, of what he himself will get
That’s not a way he looks at things, but in a simple trend
He heard the’Sahib-log’call him, so he’s with us till the end

I’ve seen him broken, mangled, with his life’s tide running low
And tears welled deep within me, as I watched the last things go
But it triumphed ere it left him, and stifled every moan
T’ was the little chunk of cheerfulness, being gathered to his own

by Lieut William Ross-Stewart. Indian Medical Service, 1st Battalion 4th Gurkha Rifles, Gallipoli 1915

 

[raphy]

That's great, Snooper.. Ghurkas are very unsung heros, and truly magnificent mountain assault troops.

 

[oggbashan]

And Ogg, the average local comprehensive may be like that, but I have it on good authority that public schools are as good as they ever were.

Raph, loving life in the states, but always proud to be one of her Majesty's subjects.

The public schools educate the minority elite. They have the "public school" accent that many think is spoken by all Brits. My wife has it. I can do it if I am with others who speak like that. She also speaks educated classical Parisian French. My French has an Australian accent which the French in Calais find amusing.

Normally I speak 'estuary' English. As with most people I speak differently depending on the company. With foreigners, which includes US citizens, I speak clearly and distinctly with a mild British accent. I can speak Shakespearean, Chaucerian or Miltonian English but not many understand when I do.

Most comprehensive kids CAN speak received pronunication but don't. For some the effort is beyond them. Locally, we still have grammar schools. The pupils speak 'estuary'.

British actors, particularly those trained at RADA, do speak properly as elocution is part of the course. A British actor who couldn't do a 'cut-glass' accent when needed wouldn't get work.

Og

 

[raphy]

The public schools educate the minority elite. They have the "public school" accent that many think is spoken by all Brits. My wife has it. I can do it if I am with others who speak like that. She also speaks educated classical Parisian French. My French has an Australian accent which the French in Calais find amusing.=

Aye. I'm ex-public school, a fact which pleases me, as it eradicated my sing-song welsh valleys accent. A cut glass accent is obviously therefore easy for me to achieve, as is my natural Welsh one, if I need it (I use it when I go back to visit my family in wales, helps me blend in better)

Here in the US, I speak British English, with a slight American lilt, which I'm expecting to become more and more pronounced as the years go by. The eventual aim, of course, is to be able to pass for an American in America, and a Briton in Britain.

 

[Bi Brit]

A Fish Called Wanda

I voted for boiled meat, but would have chosen a"self-depreciating" sense of humour if it had been available. I first saw "A fish called Wanda" in a Washington cinema (DC not CD (County Durham)).

The theatre (see I am bilingual) was packed. Everyone was American other than a friend and myself. It all started off very well, there were a few general jokes and then a few jokes about the Brits, and we all laughed.

There followed some jokes about Americans. You could only hear two people laughing then. A sea of faces kept turning in our direction and they weren't smiley happy faces.

I am very proud that we are one of the few nations that can laugh at ourselves. After last year's Rugby, even jokes by Aussies about our sporting prowess are bearable.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I've been told that I speak upper middle class English with a mix of American and Swedish accent.

The first comes from Swedish schools' English education, the latter from channel 5's American soap operas.