Lit's under 18 rule

[MillieDynamite]

These types of stories have three kinds of readers. Those who love them, those who hate them, and those who try to get the person in trouble for writing them.

If all the authors who've posted here about the injustice of the 18+ rule were to club together and kick in a few bucks each, they could set up their own site for those kinds of stories.

I suspect they'd soon enough get a better idea of why a site might choose not to host them.

 

[AchtungNight]

I don't have an issue with making characters over eighteen when they have sex. My problem is with them having sexual thoughts before they get that old. I have been rejected twice for referencing underage lust and masturbation. But I accept Laurel's standards. If I want to post here, I have no other choice.

 

[MillieDynamite]

And you do want to post here!!! LOL, am I overemoting?

I don't have an issue with making characters over eighteen when they have sex. My problem is with them having sexual thoughts before they get that old. I have been rejected twice for referencing underage lust and masturbation. But I accept Laurel's standards. If I want to post here, I have no other choice.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It's mainstream, yes. Ursula Leguin wrote under age (child, if you will) pornography. So did Stephen King.

US law protects speech but with an exception for "obscenity", which is currently defined by:

"(a) whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, (b) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law; and (c) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value."

Those two "taken as a whole" bits are crucial here.

Just about everybody agrees that the under-age gangbang in "It" was a bad idea. But IIRC, it's a few pages in a 1000-page doorstop of a book. If he or his publishers were ever charged with "distributing obscenity" for that book, they would very likely argue that the scene is only a small part of a story and that "as a whole" can't be defined by something that's less than 1% of the content.

They could also pull up sales figures to make the case that if hundreds of thousands of people were willing to buy it and keep it on their shelves, it can't be violating "contemporary community standards" too badly. They could pull up reviews from major publications to demonstrate that people find artistic value in it.

I'm not familiar with the LeGuin you mention, so I can't comment on whether "pornography" is an appropriate description, but I expect it could be defended on similar grounds.

OTOH, if I write The Adventures Of Ken The Kiddyfucker and post it on Literotica, that's a whole lot harder to defend against obscenity. Even if I write a much less salacious story that discusses an under-age experience as a small part of a larger story, the fact that I'm posting it on a sex site where people come to jerk off makes it much harder to argue that the story as a whole isn't appealing to prurient interest. I'm not likely to find a big-name reviewer to defend my work as having serious literary/artistic value; if I could, I wouldn't be publishing here because I'd have a book deal.

 

[KeithD]

While underage sex, rape, incest, and other things are allowed in mainstream publications, it cannot be a story just about those things.

There are no such limitations in what can and is included in books on any of these subjects. No one has restricted it to a subset of publishing as you do.

 

[MrHereWriting]

US law protects speech but with an exception for "obscenity", which is currently defined by:

"(a) whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, (b) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law; and (c) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value."

They need to rewrite this law with a more detailed definition.

There's still too much "I know it when I see it" in the wording. (I'm not saying the law shouldn't exist, but I'd like a better definition.)

I'd imagine Dolcett and his derivatives are obscene.

 

[mildlyaroused]

Underage sex exists, and it exists in fiction (under 18 isn't even underage in most places). And I'm fine with underage sex in mainstream fiction. I've even written it in mainstream fiction.

But that's because it's serving a wider story. It's not just designed to be arousing. It's a whole lot different when the site hosting your work (Lit) is mainly used as a source of titillation. I absolutely understand why the rule exists here, and I don't think it should be going anywhere.

 

[12oclocktales]

Some sites will publish ANYTHING, no matter how many murders the 14-year-old main characters commit between their gangbangs. Writers can always publish there if Literotica isn’t up to snuff for them. (Yep, those places will even publish that, too.)

 

[Trionyx]

And here I was thinking just yesterday that we haven’t had a thread about this for quite some time….

 

[TheArsonist]

And here I was thinking just yesterday that we haven’t had a thread about this for quite some time….

Yes, it's been three whole weeks since the last one petered out!

 

[BobbyBrandt]

and when your story was reinstated, it showed everyone how serious the site is about rape and underage. Which is not at all.

As always, we can agree to disagree.

I respect your many well-versed comments on what YOU believe to be violations of this site's policies, and I have actually agreed with a few of them. However, they hold no influence over what Laurel finds acceptable, and we can either adapt to that reality or keep lamenting it.

I choose to adapt.

 

[lovecraft68]

As always, we can agree to disagree.

I respect your many well-versed comments on what YOU believe to be violations of this site's policies, and I have actually agreed with a few of them. However, they hold no influence over what Laurel finds acceptable, and we can either adapt to that reality or keep lamenting it.

I choose to adapt.

Understand something, I'm not condemning the story itself. I have some similar content, although based in the horror genre, so the content is as legit as any other. My issue is the platform. I wouldn't put those stories here even if I felt they'd get by the rules.

As I've said before, this is an erotica site, regardless of intent, everything here is sexualized, and you can't help that as the author. But if you're running a business its these situations that cause people to feel like there are no rules. If you want no under aged, if you want no rape, then there should be none of it period "under age in context is fine" "well that rape fit the story so its okay" then "Oh, no that author describing a kiss they received as a 16 year old is wrong"

It shows what a joke it all is, and that's not what I believe or don't believe in. That's fact.

The rules are CYA here "Oh, how did that underaged story get through...oh my, let me fix that seeing 20 people reported it" meantime, it got plenty of clicks from the pedo crowd. Pastmaster used your story to prove a point anyone here not a brown noser can plainly see, the rules are a joke. I assure you if you had ever said or done something here to tick off the owner, your story would be banned. It's how it is.

Someone I used to be friendly with and left Lit some time ago, decided before they did so to submit a story rife with underage. I mean blatant, and it flew right through. They pulled it when they took down the rest of their work. They did it to see for themselves how it is around here.

And like I say about rape content. Just allow it and let it go, then these conversations don't happen. The talking out of both sides of their mouth is what causes these arguments.

And again, and this is not directed at you, but others here, the phony self righteous platform people jump up on for this topic is sickening. If Lit lowered the age limit they'd all be writing that content.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's just amazing how these conversations go on and on and on. Obviously nothing is going to change, because Literotica doesn't want anything on this particular topic, or with respect to the nonconsent rule, to change, and I don't blame them. They have very good reasons (principally site traffic) for wanting to keep their standards exactly the way they are. I am no more outraged or bothered by the fact that there is some inconsistency in the policing of the standards here than I am by the fact that the highway patrol doesn't arrest every single person for driving over the speed limit. It gets ridiculous after a while to be outraged. Just accept the rules and deal with them the best you can. If some people think they can skirt the rules and publish stories that slip by the censors, that's fine with me too. I just don't see why people care what other people are doing (or "getting away with") here.

 

[KeithD]

I am no more outraged or bothered by the fact that there is some inconsistency in the policing of the standards here than I am by the fact that the highway patrol doesn't arrest every single person for driving over the speed limit.

Plus, I don't think it's intentional and the conspiracy theories that it is are get awfully tiring awfully fast. The submissions aren't being closely read. There isn't time to do more than scan them. The selection editor can't catch every nuance in every corner of them all.

If you think it's out of bounds, push the "report" button--and then go on to doing something more constructive with your life.

 

[SimonDoom]

Plus, I don't think it's intentional and the conspiracy theories that it is are get awfully tiring awfully fast. The submissions aren't being closely read. There isn't time to do more than scan them. The selection editor can't catch every nuance in every corner of them all.

If you think it's out of bounds, push the "report" button--and then go on to doing something more constructive with your life.

The notion that the Site is knowingly looking away and letting "pedo" content (which I have never, ever seen in 22 years of reading stories here) get past the screening so it can draw the traffic of those readers while claiming that it doesn't allow that content to "cover its ass" seems absurdly far-fetched and borderline paranoid conspiracy. So long as it maintains its policy, even in name only, it will ward off most of those readers and writers, and any benefit it might reap from "letting these people in" would be so small that it wouldn't be worth thinking about for a second. The rational, Occam's Razor-complying, non-paranoid explanation is that, as you say, they don't have enough people to screen more carefully. Absent real evidence to the contrary, this is the sensible thing to believe.

If I'm wrong, and the site really lets in "pedo" content, I'd like to see somebody prove it. Send me a private message with a link to it. You don't have to worry about getting anybody in trouble, because as a general rule I never report stories and I won't do so regardless of what the content is. I truly do not care what other people publish or if they "get away" with something. If the linked-to story really is "pedo" content, though, I'll publicly admit I'm wrong, without revealing the particular story or author.

 

[StillStunned]

The rational, Occam's Razor-complying, non-paranoid explanation

I'm pretty sure Occam's Razor was never converted to digital. I've seen no evidence of it online, ever.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm pretty sure Occam's Razor was never converted to digital. I've seen no evidence of it online, ever.

There was a time when I thought the Internet was going to make us more rational. Now I just laugh at the old me that thought that.

 

[Unblemished]

If all the authors who've posted here about the injustice of the 18+ rule were to club together and kick in a few bucks each, they could set up their own site for those kinds of stories.

I suspect they'd soon enough get a better idea of why a site might choose not to host them.

That was part of why ao3 formed, I think. At the very least they made it clear from the start that they’d host pretty much anything.

Maybe people angry about the 18 rule just need to get into fanfiction and go over there

 

[StillStunned]

There was a time when I thought the Internet was going to make us more rational. Now I just laugh at the old me that thought that.

 

[lovecraft68]

It's just amazing how these conversations go on and on and on. Obviously nothing is going to change, because Literotica doesn't want anything on this particular topic, or with respect to the nonconsent rule, to change, and I don't blame them. They have very good reasons (principally site traffic) for wanting to keep their standards exactly the way they are. I am no more outraged or bothered by the fact that there is some inconsistency in the policing of the standards here than I am by the fact that the highway patrol doesn't arrest every single person for driving over the speed limit. It gets ridiculous after a while to be outraged. Just accept the rules and deal with them the best you can. If some people think they can skirt the rules and publish stories that slip by the censors, that's fine with me too. I just don't see why people care what other people are doing (or "getting away with") here.

The conversation goes on because the rules are a joke. That's something you've never seemed to understand. If you say you don't want rape stories, then you don't have a category called 'Non consent" if you don't want underage then you make a real effort to police it.

If there were a small hanful of stories on here that slipped through, that's par for the course on a site this big, but when someone gets a story booted, then looks around and easily finds many stories here that are more blatantly rule breaking, that's why things keep going.

I don't have an issue with the made-up rules, because I have no desire to write that material, but I do take an issue with the not even half ass way they're enforced and the double standard of "no rape, no torture for titillation" unless its a LW BTB story, and this crap of "you can write a child being raped as long as...well, I don't even know the excuse given.

Every 'rule' here is a wink and a smirk. Yeah, we don't want it, but oopsy it slipped through and look at all the traffic and clicks its brought. This is amazon's exact model for content on kindle. "No incest" now go search out Mommy/Mom in the titles there. Then they'll get complaints, remove it, but they made bank while it was there.

I wouldn't advocate the asstr style of no age limit, but lowering it to 16 wouldn't be a bad thing and cut a lot of this off. As for Rape, you may as well allow it, its only a fantasy (here) and its better than the awful misinformation of no never means no in the victim has to like it crap, because that perpetuates the ideas of incels and misogynists. But they cater to them in LW, so why not everywhere I suppose.

 

[lovecraft68]

My advice to anyone is whatever it is you want to write, don't come here and question it, and get attacked by hypocrites, just write it, submit it and see what happens. 50/50 its gets through unless you're really over the top.

The way around the underage rule is so easy I can't believe there are people who don't know it, and more proof the site is fine with it. It can be there, just don't be stupid and make us look bad is what I feel is the spirit of the rules here.

 

[SimonDoom]

The conversation goes on because the rules are a joke. That's something you've never seemed to understand. If you say you don't want rape stories, then you don't have a category called 'Non consent" if you don't want underage then you make a real effort to police it.

If there were a small hanful of stories on here that slipped through, that's par for the course on a site this big, but when someone gets a story booted, then looks around and easily finds many stories here that are more blatantly rule breaking, that's why things keep going.

I don't have an issue with the made-up rules, because I have no desire to write that material, but I do take an issue with the not even half ass way they're enforced and the double standard of "no rape, no torture for titillation" unless its a LW BTB story, and this crap of "you can write a child being raped as long as...well, I don't even know the excuse given.

Every 'rule' here is a wink and a smirk. Yeah, we don't want it, but oopsy it slipped through and look at all the traffic and clicks its brought. This is amazon's exact model for content on kindle. "No incest" now go search out Mommy/Mom in the titles there. Then they'll get complaints, remove it, but they made bank while it was there.

I wouldn't advocate the asstr style of no age limit, but lowering it to 16 wouldn't be a bad thing and cut a lot of this off. As for Rape, you may as well allow it, its only a fantasy (here) and its better than the awful misinformation of no never means no in the victim has to like it crap, because that perpetuates the ideas of incels and misogynists. But they cater to them in LW, so why not everywhere I suppose.

You keep saying this, but I don't see it.

"Child rape"? I've never seen that here. I've never looked for it, so maybe that's why. I'm skeptical about claims when nobody provides any proof.

There's a plausible, sensible answer for the phenomenon that you claim exists, and that's simply that they don't have the resources to police everything. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with cynicism or hypocrisy or whatever theory you want to come up with.

There are some cases where characters are described as "18" or as in high school where the age is ambiguous. So what? Stories about high school kids are not pedophilia. The "pedo" crowd is looking for something quite different. It's out there, but I don't see it at Literotica. If you lowered the age to 16, then you'd have authors continue to play with the new boundary and they'd be writing characters that are much closer to pre-pubescent. My guess is the site doesn't want to deal with that. The under-18 rule is a clear, bright-line rule that avoids that. As far as I can tell, it does so with a reasonable degree of success. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I don't see any of the critics ever providing proof. It all seems very high-schoolish to me. People want to complain loudly, but nobody wants to be called a snitch. Let's be adults. If you see content that you think breaks the rules and is wrong, then call it out. Otherwise, it's difficult to take the protests seriously.

I have seen some non-consent/BTB-style stories that have gotten through that, IMO, border on torture porn. I don't like those stories. I also don't care that they get through. I continue NOT to understand why this is a big issue for people. This is obviously a very difficult thing to police. I see nothing wrong with the Site having rules that, in my opinion, have plausible justifications, but which result in inconsistent policing. Inconsistency is a minor sin. I don't understand why it sticks in your craw so much.

 

[Djmac1031]

How to tell people you REALLY wanna write kiddy porn without telling people you REALLY wanna write kiddy porn....

 

[lovecraft68]

You keep saying this, but I don't see it.

"Child rape"? I've never seen that here. I've never looked for it, so maybe that's why. I'm skeptical about claims when nobody provides any proof.

There's a plausible, sensible answer for the phenomenon that you claim exists, and that's simply that they don't have the resources to police everything. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with cynicism or hypocrisy or whatever theory you want to come up with.

There are some cases where characters are described as "18" or as in high school where the age is ambiguous. So what? Stories about high school kids are not pedophilia. The "pedo" crowd is looking for something quite different. It's out there, but I don't see it at Literotica. If you lowered the age to 16, then you'd have authors continue to play with the new boundary and they'd be writing characters that are much closer to pre-pubescent. My guess is the site doesn't want to deal with that. The under-18 rule is a clear, bright-line rule that avoids that. As far as I can tell, it does so with a reasonable degree of success. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I don't see any of the critics ever providing proof. It all seems very high-schoolish to me. People want to complain loudly, but nobody wants to be called a snitch. Let's be adults. If you see content that you think breaks the rules and is wrong, then call it out. Otherwise, it's difficult to take the protests seriously.

I have seen some non-consent/BTB-style stories that have gotten through that, IMO, border on torture porn. I don't like those stories. I also don't care that they get through. I continue NOT to understand why this is a big issue for people. This is obviously a very difficult thing to police. I see nothing wrong with the Site having rules that, in my opinion, have plausible justifications, but which result in inconsistent policing. Inconsistency is a minor sin. I don't understand why it sticks in your craw so much.

Right here. the part in bold. You don't care they got through. Fair enough, but when threads like this start, why do you bother discussing the rules? If you don't care, don't talk about it.

And in that regard, we agree to an extent. I don't care about the content-with the caveat in regards to rape, at least be in the NC section where you'd expect it. I care about the constant talking about rules, when they're violated all over the site. Its about the whiny Karen like double talk, and I'll give you an example that I know you've seen before.

Someone comes here and complains their non con story was booted. What's the prevailing reaction? "Lit doesn't allow rape stories" Reeeeeeee

Okay, then someone comes here and complains about a published rape story. What's the reaction from those very same people? Suddenly, its fine.

Which is my issue. Seems few people here can stick to their guns on the rules rather than keep sucking site ass and not simply saying "Yeah, sorry, bud, the rules are a joke and its up to the mood of the one screener on the site, try again later"

Nope its "There's rules!" then "No, its okay!"

That's the shit that's tiresome around here.

BTW, it took me multiple years of linking a story called raping Chay which was on the all time favs list for ever, has rape in the title, was blatant non con with some heavy hints about the age of the girl in it. Right there for everyone to see. I posted it in all these discussions until one day...it was finally gone because the site grew tired of having proof of their 'rules' shown to people. This has happened many times over the years. People report a story, nothing happens. Someone starts a thread with the link, people are like WTF? and then it goes away. Shaming is the only thing that works.

 

[lovecraft68]

How to tell people you REALLY wanna write kiddy porn without telling people you REALLY wanna write kiddy porn....

Grow up.

"Kiddie porn" would be about kids of a very young age. I don't recall ever seeing anyone here looking to write about 8 year old kids (They had asstr for that.) most people who have this issue are either questioning why legal age of consent is 16 for most of the country, younger around the world, and everything has to be 18 here.

The other issue is the absurd BS of having a story booted for describing a first kiss at 16 and other stupid shit that isn't even sex. "I saw so and so jacking off at 16" can get the boot here even without going in to detail which is not sex.

To which the simple answer would be yeah, that's the rules, if it was consistent.

But expressing frustration over those things does not make someone a pedo, so maybe stop grand standing and throwing accusations like that around.