Love vs Pain

[JMohegan]

Hm. I guess almost all of the people I enjoy best are already into pain. They don't get into pain per se to make me happy, perhaps they push towards the amount or the kind I like because they like me and for no other reason, and that is a lot of what makes it interesting.

But I don't find that enjoyment of pain purely as a submissive response does it for me. I prefer painsluts of a certain level to other people as sexual partners.

I *don't* get off when I'm doling out a spanking to someone who hates every minute and can't take as hard of one as I could myself, and fundamentally simply accepts it because it's what I want. I know that's anathema to the whole concept of mixing your Domination with your sadism, but really it doesn't do it for me to the degree that someone who loves every second does.

There's no way I could sustain a relationship in which a partner hated every minute of sex, or even every minute of pain play. I view the type of seduction that I employ as a skill, and I'm very good at it. But I'm not *that* good. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could be.

Part of what gets my Dominant rocks off is teaching her to enjoy the pain. This can be done, as you know, and I really enjoy that process.

I am also fortunate in that I can really, really get off on slow, loving, emotional, tender sex (when I'm in the mood for it).

So if you looked at the grand scheme of passion in one of my relationships, the moments in which she hated what was happening except as a submissive response would probably constitute only 1 or 2 percent of the entire experience.

My idea of ideal is a random hot woman showing up at my door saying "please fuck me. You have no idea how bad I've wanted you." Thereby giving me the leverage to be hard to get.

Frankly, Netzach.... looking at the av, and given what I know about you from your posts, and doing the Domme/sub math....... I find it difficult to believe that you're not just as hard to get as you want to be already. No matter who shows up at your door.

 

[JMohegan]

In other words, for you, if you go out and chase her down, seduce her and score, it's better than if she comes to you directly and says, "You're hot, do me."

For me, either way strokes my ego! But I'm a lazy bastard, I like it when the fish jump in my boat. Bump all that worm and hook and string and pole crap... *LOL*

Ha, ha! You'll definitely be eating dinner before I will, no doubt!

More seriously, Geoff, I understand your point about the ego trip. A long, looooong time ago, I sometimes accepted this type of offer (depending on my assessment of their physical appeal).

But pretty much since day one, the women who have given me their versions of "You're hot, do me" (in varying degrees of subtlety or absence thereof) have done so for only superficial reasons. After a while, I started craving validation for parts of me that ran deeper than the surface appeal.

I also developed a need for control that grew stronger over the years, making me insist on sitting in the driver's seat/ leading the dance/ pick your metaphor for controlling the process right from the very beginning and including the very first move.

You're absolutely right, though. It's inefficient as hell, I know! But given my particular needs, it can't be helped.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I had the same problem with my ex, whom I loved very much.


"but why do you want to hurt me????"


I never had an easily swallowable answer for that. The truth was that I wanted to hurt her because that's what made my bone hard. I wanted to humiliate, crush and debase her. It's not easy to admit this shit.

believe it or not, your ex sounds a bit like me in my early stages of slavery. despite all the "research" and exploring i had done, despite how intellectually i knew about sadism and dominance, and despite the fact that even before being owned, i would proclaim with longing how i would love to "suffer for my Master,", when the reality of it all kicked in, it was a whole different ballgame.

it all of a sudden hit me like...wow...this man really wants to hurt me. abuse me. degrade me. He really truly sincerely wants to make me feel like sh*t. and yet he claimed to love me?? it was hard to accept. i have asked that question before, "why do you want me to suffer so? why do you want to do this to me?" with tears and snot going all over the place. and he would answer honestly, seriously, and often with sadness in his eyes, "because i love you. i need to hurt you because you are mine and i love you."

now, i've come to see the beauty in that, and i truly feel honored to suffer for him. but the road to acceptance of that truth was a long, torturous and often depressing one.

 

[myinnerslut]

My advice would be maybe something else that isn't about the pain... maybe blindfolds, clamps, cuffs, sensation instead of pain...

good advice overall, BDSM isnt just about the pain, showing your wife another side of things might be a welcome and fun change of pace

but as for clamps not being about the pain, i beg to differ... for me they have always been very painful (part of why i like them). mabye not sucha a good choice for a painless alternative.

 

[RonClarkeson]

read Ibiza Holiday

I'm taking everyones' advice about increasing communication with my wife. It's not easy to talk about, so I'm taking it slow. Anyway, she keeps bringing up something that I don't know how to respond to.

She can't understand why I would want to inflict pain on someone I love. I really love her and I would hate seeing her be seriously injured, but I wouldn't mind giving her a little spanking now and then. It goes the other way too. She can't understand why she would inflict pain on me if she loves me.

I know why it appeals to me, but I don't know how to put it into words. Any ideas? I don't want to hear that she's just genetically programmed to be vanilla because I'm not giving up hope.

This is the first chapter of a story about a wife who craves pain. The example may not fit but you will understand the troubled life the husband goes through! Your wife may also undersatnd!

 

[Stegral]

My advice would be maybe something else that isn't about the pain... maybe blindfolds, clamps, cuffs, sensation instead of pain...

good advice overall, BDSM isnt just about the pain, showing your wife another side of things might be a welcome and fun change of pace

but as for clamps not being about the pain, i beg to differ... for me they have always been very painful (part of why i like them). maybe not such a good choice for a painless alternative.

Sorry I should have been more specific...
someone in our group caters to cowards...
they have come up with very loosened spring, more of a slip on type of clamp...
one pair even has a fuzzy lining...
There are also some very wonderful sites for jewelery that I have:

breast petals
non-piercing stuff
Clit jewelery

I personally have been thinking of widening the inner hole of clothespins while leaving the contact ends the same
Don't know why, but I hate my nipples bieng touched...

I am sorry for the misunderstanding...
Yes, clothespins, clover clamps & most nipple clamps CAN be very tight, but have a peek at the links...
you both might find something she would be willing to try

 

[liberatedslave]

Personally, there is a totally disconnect between my "love" and my "sadism". Asking me "How can you want to inflict pain on someone you love?" makes about as much sense to me as "How can enjoy hamburger if you drive a Ford?"

That's exactly right EG! Personally I don't get the whole "I've been such a bad girl." routine because whether Sir is pleased with me or not I want and will thoroughly enjoy a sound spanking. Of course that's where I differ from Byakuya's wife.

I think it was Oscar Wilde who wrote that "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."

Byakuya, I would approach it from the perspective that you do love her and you do love sex with her (don't let her think you're not because it'll damage her confidence and she'll be even less open to anything new). I don't think that saying you want to hurt and control her is a very romantic approach, what in it for your lady exactly?

First, add a bottle of wine or whatever you drink over a romantic dinner date.

Say that the idea of a little light spanking turns you on because she's got such a great ass you want to grip, squeeze and bite it. Let her know how much of a fire she stokes in you and how much you still lust after her as well as love her romantically. Let her see that you want to devour her, make love to her passionately and with abandon. Tell her that this would greatly heighten the pleasure of lovemaking for both of you.

Then proceed with caution. Reassure her at all times, tell her how fucking sexy she looks on all fours with her ass tilted out (women who have issues about their appearance feel very exposed in these kinds of positions, they feel all their flaws are on display and so they don't feel sexy, you must counterbalance this with lots of genuine praise.) Be gentle, keep checking she's enjoying things, make love to her as you spank her or touch her clit, keep her hot and build on it. Tell her afterwards how great she was, make sure you're loving and gentle and don't fall fast asleep within five minutes, encourage her to talk about what she did or didn't enjoy and go in her direction with this and at her pace.

There's plenty of time for you to work her around to submission (if she finds she enjoys herself, if not you may have to admit defeat) and other forms of kink. Find something she likes the idea of, ask her what her fantasies are in return for trying out yours.

You've got to woo her with this idea, not play it like a cracked record.

Good luck with this

 

[Stegral]

Awesome advice Liberated !!!
If only the previous 2 B/F's had taken this approach things might have worked differently...

I grew up VERY VERY Vanilla... hell Oral was kinky so I was conditioned to not enjoy sex let alone the wild stuff that raced thru my head come out to play... If it was in her upbringing that sex is taboo or just not done unless you wanted children, you may have a long road unless you hit that switch that shuts off the past & allows her to live !!

There is alot of good advice in here, figure out what might just work & give it a go. let the seed grow in her head once you plant it...took me a long time to become confident enough to even admit to myself I was the slightest bit curious... My bestest friend always thought I was "straight as an arrow, no twists" for the longest time & when she found out about me being into a "play group" she thought I had snapped & gone nuts... until she realized it was all good & I was on the same level as her, even a bit ahead at times
(she has more toys, I have more contacts )

 

[Byakuya]

lots of good advice from everyone! I appreciate it! Liberated, your post was very insightful! you're so right that the "cracked record" approach doesn't work!

 

[myinnerslut]

Sorry I should have been more specific...
someone in our group caters to cowards...
they have come up with very loosened spring, more of a slip on type of clamp...
one pair even has a fuzzy lining...
There are also some very wonderful sites for jewelery that I have:

breast petals
non-piercing stuff
Clit jewelery

I personally have been thinking of widening the inner hole of clothespins while leaving the contact ends the same
Don't know why, but I hate my nipples bieng touched...

I am sorry for the misunderstanding...
Yes, clothespins, clover clamps & most nipple clamps CAN be very tight, but have a peek at the links...
you both might find something she would be willing to try

oh, i really like the clit jewlery.... ive always been very nervouse about peircings in general so even though ive liked how pierced clits would look with little chains, i would never do it. those though are just gourgous and well within my range of personally acceptable.

 

[FurryFury]

That's exactly right EG! Personally I don't get the whole "I've been such a bad girl." routine because whether Sir is pleased with me or not I want and will thoroughly enjoy a sound spanking. Of course that's where I differ from Byakuya's wife.

I think it was Oscar Wilde who wrote that "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."

Byakuya, I would approach it from the perspective that you do love her and you do love sex with her (don't let her think you're not because it'll damage her confidence and she'll be even less open to anything new). I don't think that saying you want to hurt and control her is a very romantic approach, what in it for your lady exactly?

First, add a bottle of wine or whatever you drink over a romantic dinner date.

Say that the idea of a little light spanking turns you on because she's got such a great ass you want to grip, squeeze and bite it. Let her know how much of a fire she stokes in you and how much you still lust after her as well as love her romantically. Let her see that you want to devour her, make love to her passionately and with abandon. Tell her that this would greatly heighten the pleasure of lovemaking for both of you.

Then proceed with caution. Reassure her at all times, tell her how fucking sexy she looks on all fours with her ass tilted out (women who have issues about their appearance feel very exposed in these kinds of positions, they feel all their flaws are on display and so they don't feel sexy, you must counterbalance this with lots of genuine praise.) Be gentle, keep checking she's enjoying things, make love to her as you spank her or touch her clit, keep her hot and build on it. Tell her afterwards how great she was, make sure you're loving and gentle and don't fall fast asleep within five minutes, encourage her to talk about what she did or didn't enjoy and go in her direction with this and at her pace.

There's plenty of time for you to work her around to submission (if she finds she enjoys herself, if not you may have to admit defeat) and other forms of kink. Find something she likes the idea of, ask her what her fantasies are in return for trying out yours.

You've got to woo her with this idea, not play it like a cracked record.

Good luck with this

GREAT post!

Fury

 

[Stegral]

oh, i really like the clit jewlery.... ive always been very nervouse about peircings in general so even though ive liked how pierced clits would look with little chains, i would never do it. those though are just gourgous and well within my range of personally acceptable.

LOL.. I am anemic & have been warned about getting my body pierced...
My tounge being done was enough of a battle so I researched non-piercing ways to adorn myself with jewelery

I am glad you liked the link

just wondering if Byakuya or his wife found anything interesting

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

oh, i really like the clit jewlery.... ive always been very nervouse about peircings in general so even though ive liked how pierced clits would look with little chains, i would never do it. those though are just gourgous and well within my range of personally acceptable.

O/T I know, but I thought I'd throw out another nice non piercing jewelry place. These have worked the best for me in staying on without pinching for any length of time. She also sells on Ebay. www.underthehoode.com

Sorry for the hijacking.....

 

[Byakuya]

just wondering if Byakuya or his wife found anything interesting

oh yeah, lots of interesting stuff! I thought this picture was very erotic!

 

[liberatedslave]

GREAT post!

Fury

Wow, all this praise! I'm blushing now & not from behind

 

[Stegral]

O/T I know, but I thought I'd throw out another nice non piercing jewelry place. These have worked the best for me in staying on without pinching for any length of time. She also sells on Ebay. www.underthehoode.com

Sorry for the hijacking.....

I don't think it was toooo far off topic... hubby is trying to get wifey into something new... just needs to figure out how...

TY for that link, I haven't come across any of that stuff yet !! I am on e-bay wayyy too much

 

[Byakuya]

I'm also thinking about starting toy collection. We have one dildo so far, but that's it. What would be some good stuff to start out with? I was thinking that some handcuffs and a blindfold might be the next step. It seems like most of the novelty BDSM handcuffs I've seen are not all that sturdy so I was thinking I'd get the real stainless steel ones that are used by police. What are some other good toys to start out with? Preferably ones that wouldn't make her run away.

 

[myinnerslut]

I'm also thinking about starting toy collection. We have one dildo so far, but that's it. What would be some good stuff to start out with? I was thinking that some handcuffs and a blindfold might be the next step. It seems like most of the novelty BDSM handcuffs I've seen are not all that sturdy so I was thinking I'd get the real stainless steel ones that are used by police. What are some other good toys to start out with? Preferably ones that wouldn't make her run away.

why not ask her... go together to purchase one... make it a date


if thats to frightning for her, but you still want to get her something, get her something small and vibrate-y. size may be scary and if you dont have somehting that vibrates, get one. its a toy that will be mainly for her though.

 

[Stegral]

I'm also thinking about starting toy collection. We have one dildo so far, but that's it. What would be some good stuff to start out with? I was thinking that some handcuffs and a blindfold might be the next step. It seems like most of the novelty BDSM handcuffs I've seen are not all that sturdy so I was thinking I'd get the real stainless steel ones that are used by police. What are some other good toys to start out with? Preferably ones that wouldn't make her run away.

I personally prefer scarves to handcuffs...
those cold shiny metal things scare me...
Blindfold would seem a good start for this barely converted "nilla...
You really need to communicate with her...
What is SHE comfy with... it is HER you are playing with.
Something someone on here LOVES may scare her to death...
I don't like floggers or canes, but I love wurternburg wheels & am curious about knives & wax...

Each of us is different & it is this journey that you two need to start on together... we can just show you the sights... it is up to the both of you where to stop & check stuff out

 

[FurryFury]

I'm also thinking about starting toy collection. We have one dildo so far, but that's it. What would be some good stuff to start out with? I was thinking that some handcuffs and a blindfold might be the next step. It seems like most of the novelty BDSM handcuffs I've seen are not all that sturdy so I was thinking I'd get the real stainless steel ones that are used by police. What are some other good toys to start out with? Preferably ones that wouldn't make her run away.

You really might want to talk with her first. Personally I would be leery of unlined handcuffs, more so than rope, scarfs or saran wrap, (which at least one person on this board is allergic to,) because of the what happens if he suddenly can't free me thing and I have to do it myself question.

To start with you don't need toys for these things really. Your tie can make a good blindfold as can many things you have around the house. Same for restraining someone. You also need to really know you safety rules when you start restraining.

One other thing about bondage, it can be a beautiful process that takes a while. I used to think of it as merely a means to an end. It can be so much more than that, each step can show your bond and/or the power exchange as a couple, her acceptance as well as your care for her. The process can be art. Therefore, it can make me cry to watch it.

Fury

 

[Etoile]

I will give the same answer here that I did in the other thread about this recently. Admittedly I am "already" a submissive so this may not help!

I am not a masochist or a pain slut. To be honest, I don't like pain, except under certain conditions or when I'm in a certain mental state. But the reason I endure pain is to give my dominant satisfaction. If my dominant wants to inflict pain on me, if that's what makes them happy, then I will accept it and I am happy in return.

 

[CutieMouse]

(Sigh... I should be working...)

A few years ago, when I realized there was a whole set of terminology for quite a few things I'd hidden inside my psyche, I'd say very firmly that I was not a "pain slut" and could not comprehend how pain and Love were compatable.

Then two things occured:

I was slowly introduced to pain, as sensation, from an intillectual perspective... The body responds to pain by releasing endorphins, etc. There are hormones released at the point of orgasm, that are similar (and sometimes identical) to those released when one is experiencing pain. The intillectual connection was suggested to me, that pain might be an interesting way to "piggyback" those endorphins, creating a stronger physiological response... A slow build up of pain + a slow build up to orgasm = one hell of a fun ride.

The other thing that occured, was the introduction of an emotional/romantic/love based connection between pain and Love. Every second I am suffering, hurting, begging, or pushing my tolerance just a wee bit more... I am expressing my deepest heartfelt devotion to my Lover. In turn, by sharing in that very intimate moment with me, my Lover is responsibly providing me with the vehicle to show my devotion; thus, reflecting that same deep Adoration back at me. Ya gotta Love me awfully damned deeply, to give me that gift [pain], and for me to revel in it; I have to Love back with equally deep devotion, to feel safe enough to accept and enjoy it [pain].

 

[Netzach]

There's no way I could sustain a relationship in which a partner hated every minute of sex, or even every minute of pain play. I view the type of seduction that I employ as a skill, and I'm very good at it. But I'm not *that* good. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could be.

Part of what gets my Dominant rocks off is teaching her to enjoy the pain. This can be done, as you know, and I really enjoy that process.

I am also fortunate in that I can really, really get off on slow, loving, emotional, tender sex (when I'm in the mood for it).

So if you looked at the grand scheme of passion in one of my relationships, the moments in which she hated what was happening except as a submissive response would probably constitute only 1 or 2 percent of the entire experience.

I was about to post something about how I don't get the "conquest" aspect of it it never feels like a conquest to me blah blah PC bullshit and then I shifted my brain 15 degrees and thought "humiliation" instead of "pain" and now I'm totally on board with you. When I can get someone who hates the prospect with every alpha fiber of his/her being to LOVE kissing my feet, it's gold.

 

[liberatedslave]

I agree with others that an intimate shopping trip could be an ideal way of being close to your wife and allowing her to open up.

I'm assuming she's quite reticent about sex and fantasies (I confess, I haven't read the whole thread from the beginning). I'm just wondering whether you're not in danger of bombarding her a little. Walking into a sex shop is daunting for some women (don't ask her to do this in your home town if she's shy) and while you want to buy her present to get her interested, she'll probably read it as phase two of the 'turn my wife into a pain loving sub' campaign i.e. something you want for yourself transparently disguised as an act of love.

Blindfolds and scarves are sexy - if they turn you on. Your wife may be scared by them and if you're too enthusiastic she'll see you as over-eager and possibly doubt whether you've considered all the safety aspects for her. Does she know you post here? Here's a good a place as any to start her off with reading the stories and so on. It might be gentler to start by buying her some underwear to make her feel sexy and then steer her round to a sex toy shop... crafty eh?

Then, make a herculean effort and let her browse without saying anything about what YOU want until she's spent time examining the 'rampant rabbits' while raising a newly enlightened eyebrow in the direction of your crotch

If she's as likely to set foot in a sex shop as Botswana I'd go with Fury's suggestion of improvising with mundane things to start with. Buying specific toys feels like a commitment whereas tying her wrists with a necktie and blindfolding her with one of her own scarves doesn't. If she's nervous and uncertain I'd wait until you know she likes these kinds of play before buying a great big kidproof chest and vowing to fill it with BDSM kit.

Basically I'm trying to say that if you let her think you're getting carried away with your own perversions regarless of her opinion of them (and let's face it, you are a little) she'll instinctively panic and dig her heels into any attempt to draw her out sexually.

Sorry to sound so negative, you know your own wife and I reserve the right to be completely wrong.

 

[Byakuya]

Actually the main reason I was thinking about buying something "behind her back" is because I was considering possibilities for Valentine's Day presents. But I agree that a shopping trip together is a good idea. Maybe I could get her a gift card to an erotic store or something. hmm... that's not a bad idea..

I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here to give you an idea where we're coming from.. anyway, the city where we live had an erotic store open up a few years ago. But the community banded together and drove them out. They had protesters outside the store 24-7 and any time someone walked in, they would harass them. the store didn't have big offensive signs or anything. on the contrary it was very discreet. actually I didn't even know it was there until I saw the protestors and asked what they were protesting. anyway, the community did not approve of that store being there, so they're gone now. That's the type of area we live in, so it's no wonder my wife is reluctant to get a little kinky.

Anyway, back to the topic.. about 40 minutes from us is an area where this sort of thing is more accepted and there are erotic stores there, so if we do take a shopping trip it'll be to that area. my wife and I have been to erotic stores in that area, but mostly we go with the excuse to buy something for a wedding party and then maybe buy something small for ourselves while we're there. One time we bought some sexual whip cream which is supposed to be safe to use in any oriface, and I think we used it once because it tasted terrible! I'd much rather just taste her natural juices!

She hates to waste money, so I bet if I bought a gift card to a store like Ambiance, she'd want to go use it just so it didn't go to waste. That's probably what I'll do.

I know you're probably right about the getting carried away thing. It's really a struggle between taking things as slowly as I know I should, and doing everything I want to do. She has let me tie her hands when we had sex, so at least I know she's not opposed to the most basic form of bondage. I asked her if she thinks she'd like to tie me up, and she said "nah" but sometimes I think she answers the way she thinks a "good girl" should answer. I know she loves being on top and she will sometimes push me over so that she can be on top. so if my hands were tied, she'd have easy access to her favorite position and I wouldn't have any say in the matter..

I think the act of actually tying ropes around my wrists might be a little too "drawn out" for her at this point, which is why I was thinking that slapping a pair of handcuffs on me might be more comfortable for her.

Does she know you post here?

that's a good question. she actually does know I post on a message board called "Literotica" but we've never had a discussion about what the site is about.. if she asks, I'll explain it to her, but it's just never really come up..