Making babies

[LadyJeanne]

that was pretty insightful. i understand your position and i respect you for it. however, i have been told that there are not many couples interested in a child from a minority (black, oriental, et. al). If we could overcome racism, the problem would be less controversial. Abortion as a means of birth control is not OK with me. It is an irresonsible act by the mother-to-be. We need to do better.

If you believe it's irresponsible of the woman, you must also believe it is irresponsible of the father, as well.

 

[warrior queen]

Is reproduction a right or a privilege or something else altogether?

i have a different view to most here - i think having children just is.
some really responsible couples have children, and then fuck them up totally - and, conversely, some really irresponsible people have children, and bring them up to be unbelievably wonderful adults.

there's absolutely no way to tell just by first impressions, and so i lean toward having children as being a something that just is, regardless of who you are.

children just are.
some come good, despite the worst.
some go bad, despite the best.

and no-one has the right to tell another person they cannot have offspring - that offends the basic philosophies of being human.

 

[TBKahuna123]

that was pretty insightful. i understand your position and i respect you for it. however, i have been told that there are not many couples interested in a child from a minority (black, oriental, et. al). If we could overcome racism, the problem would be less controversial. Abortion as a means of birth control is not OK with me. It is an irresonsible act by the mother-to-be. We need to do better.

You are absolutely correct! My wife and I have talked a little bit about this issue. Would we adopt a baby who wasn't white, or even wasn't american? We both agreed that we would, because it's not like we'll be trying to hide the fact that we have adopted and we certainly ahve no racial prejudices. The other question was what about adopting a child who wasn't a baby? While we really want a baby just like every other couple, there are so many older children who need homes. We didn't go too far into that because we're still trying to have a child of our own, and things look promising. If we get to that point though, these are all options we'll have to explore. You do bring up an awesome point though.

If you believe it's irresponsible of the woman, you must also believe it is irresponsible of the father, as well.

I agree, totally irresponsible, if the father pushes or goes along with this course of action. Remember though, a father of an unborn child has no legal recourse to stop a woman from having an abortion. I have a friend who's girlfriend got pregnant and despite his desire to raise hte child and provide as he felt was his duty, she had an abortion. It crushed him.

 

[Mysty61]

I think everyone has the right to reproduce, but with that right comes responsibilty. One has to be responsible to themself, the child, the family,and to society. We have the responsibilty to determine if we are fit to be a parent, if we can care for support train and educate a child. The right to reproduce is always there, but we have to realize rights are not always free. When we decide to have a child it must be because we know we will be able to give the child the best possible life to attain their potential. This does not mean you have to be rich - the poor can be just as responsible as the rich, but you do have to have the resources to offer the child a future within whatever means you have. I think having a child is all about responsibility.

 

[warrior queen]

I think everyone has the right to reproduce, but with that right comes responsibilty. One has to be responsible to themself, the child, the family,and to society. We have the responsibilty to determine if we are fit to be a parent, if we can care for support train and educate a child. The right to reproduce is always there, but we have to realize rights are not always free. When we decide to have a child it must be because we know we will be able to give the child the best possible life to attain their potential. This does not mean you have to be rich - the poor can be just as responsible as the rich, but you do have to have the resources to offer the child a future within whatever means you have. I think having a child is all about responsibility.

this philosophy can only be applied to affluent countries filled with access to all the basic necessities...
it cannot be applied to those who live in less prosperous countries, those who have limited access to basic services.
we in our comfortable homes, with electricity at the touch of a switch and water flowing freely from our taps, education and health-care at high standards, cannot apply our own criteria for reproduction on those who don't have these same advantages.

yet, we continually try to, with completely ineffectual resuults.
birth control in underdeveloped countries is a total failure.
but we go on preaching it, some of us thinking it's our right to limit the birthing rates of those less educated, those less prosperous.

why should rich countries have the right to reproduce and not poorer ones?

the hypocrisy is astounding.

 

[LadyJeanne]

this philosophy can only be applied to affluent countries filled with access to all the basic necessities...
it cannot be applied to those who live in less prosperous countries, those who have limited access to basic services.
we in our comfortable homes, with electricity at the touch of a switch and water flowing freely from our taps, education and health-care at high standards, cannot apply our own criteria for reproduction on those who don't have these same advantages.

yet, we continually try to, with completely ineffectual resuults.
birth control in underdeveloped countries is a total failure.
but we go on preaching it, some of us thinking it's our right to limit the birthing rates of those less educated, those less prosperous.

why should rich countries have the right to reproduce and not poorer ones?

the hypocrisy is astounding.

We preach birth control because we believe it is better to prevent the pregnancy than to starve the child later. It's not hypocrisy if you practice what you preach.

 

[warrior queen]

We preach birth control because we believe it is better to prevent the pregnancy than to starve the child later. It's not hypocrisy if you practice what you preach.

maybe not hypocrisy...
but most definitely a form of preferential selection.

'you have a decent income, a reasonable outlook on life, and access to health, education and sustenance - therefore i shall allow you to have your child. you may begin your efforts to concieve.'
*signed, sealed and delivered, this day --/--/----*

 

[LadyJeanne]

maybe not hypocrisy...
but most definitely a form of preferential selection.

'you have a decent income, a reasonable outlook on life, and access to health, education and sustenance - therefore i shall allow you to have your child. you may begin your efforts to concieve.'
*signed, sealed and delivered, this day --/--/----*

Ecucating people about their birth control options is not tantamount to preferential selection. Knowing about their options gives people an opportunity to make a choice about procreation they would otherwise not have. Informing people about birth control is not the same as telling people they are not allowed to have children.

 

[warrior queen]

Ecucating people about their birth control options is not tantamount to preferential selection. Knowing about their options gives people an opportunity to make a choice about procreation they would otherwise not have. Informing people about birth control is not the same as telling people they are not allowed to have children.

and yet, almost this entire thread has been devoted to the righteous being indignant at the thought of someone having a baby who doesn't fit the 'criteria' that the nice, affluent, well-fed, well-educated posters have!

i still say it's hypocrisy.

 

[TBKahuna123]

and yet, almost this entire thread has been devoted to the righteous being indignant at the thought of someone having a baby who doesn't fit the 'criteria' that the nice, affluent, well-fed, well-educated posters have!

i still say it's hypocrisy.

I disagree, I don't think that's what's being said at all. What people are saying is that people who have kids willy nilly with no thought to how they'll take care of the child. Have a plan, that's all we're saying, and it isn't right if you plan is "well the government will take care of it." That's not right, at all.

I know a lot of people who are struggling to make ends meet but are still awesome parents and their kids want for nothing. Still they are the kind of people who put their kids first, before themselves. THEY make the sacrifices so their children don't have to. Not everyone who's having kids these days does that, and these are the people who's kids grow up little bad asses full of hate and malice.

 

[Guest]

 

[Eilan]

and yet, almost this entire thread has been devoted to the righteous being indignant at the thought of someone having a baby who doesn't fit the 'criteria' that the nice, affluent, well-fed, well-educated posters have!

i still say it's hypocrisy.

While my husband and I do well, we both have pretty humble backgrounds. We don't live a life of affluence in Suburbia. We live in Appalachia, in one of the most poverty-stricken areas of Ohio. Most of my kids' classmates don't have the basics; they come to school hungry and otherwise poorly prepared for class. My husband "adopted" a four-year-old girl as part of the local "Shop with a Cop" program last year, and this child had no winter coat and no shoes. When the presents were delivered to her and her siblings, two of the many indoor cats were standing back to back, taking a shit on the kitchen table.

Yes, some of their parents work their asses off and still can't get ahead; some of them are just a couple of paychecks (or one work-related injury) from homelessness. Others, however, continue to have children that they can't support without the government assistance that they feel they're "entitled" to. I'll never forget a letter to the editor that was in our local paper a few months back from some woman who was pregnant with babies 6 and 7. She was upset because she didn't believe that a local charity had helped her family out enough at Christmas time. Her husband, though apparently able-bodied, was "unable" to get a job because she couldn't handle the children by herself. I've seen this attitude firsthand in my not-so-immediate family as well, and I think it sucks.

When I was a senior in high school, my dad left my mother after 18 years of a marriage in which she was physically and mentally abused and made to stay home to raise my brother and me. Even though an extra income was needed, my father believed that a woman's place was in the home. My mom had clerical skills, though they were rusty, but after the divorce, it took her several months to find a job.

While she was job-searching, she was worried about what might happen if she were to get sick and end up with medical bills that she couldn't afford to pay, so she decided to go to the welfare office to see if she could get a medical card, just until she got a job. She walked around the block three times before she finally worked up the nerve to go into the building, only to be told that there was nothing that they could do for her.** Here was a woman with no job, no medical insurance, and $250 a month in child support as her only income. She wasn't asking for money, nor was she asking for food stamps. All she wanted was a fucking medical card that she would have been too proud to use unless she was damn near sick enough to die, and she couldn't get one. Fortunately, she got a good job a couple of months later, and fortunately, she didn't need medical care while she searched for that job.

So, yeah, I'm a little bitter when fucked-up people fuck with impunity and then expect for the government to pay for them to make the same mistake over and over, because the only mistake that my mother made was staying in an abusive marriage way longer than she should have. If that makes me a self-righteous hypocrite, then so be it.

Saw this today--Ohio Mother Leaves Child Alone 3 Weeks. I'd like to see this piece of work be subjected to the same treatment that she subjected her seven-month-old to. But apparently she has a right to keep popping those babies out, so who am I to judge?

**Edited to add: The welfare office's "excuse" for not allowing my mother to have a medical card was that her name was on a couple of joint savings accounts that my grandmother opened for my brother and me when we were babies. Two years before my parents divorced, my grandmother, knowing that she's not going to live forever, decided to take her name off the account and have my mom's name put on it. Apparently the small amount of money in those accounts was considered to be "hers." My mother said, "That money belongs to my children. I'd never use it," but her name was on the accounts, so tough shit for her.

 

[Eilan]

There is another side to how our fertility issues affects me, and that's jealousy.

My husband wanted a baby so badly that he used to tear up when he saw babies at the grocery store.

When we started dating, my oldest daughter was 3 1/2 and my second daughter had just had her first birthday. One night, after I got the three-year-old out of the bathtub, I walked into the living room to find him sitting in the rocking chair with tears in his eyes as he cradled my little one, who was fast asleep.

 

[TBKahuna123]

My husband wanted a baby so badly that he used to tear up when he saw babies at the grocery store.

When we started dating, my oldest daughter was 3 1/2 and my second daughter had just had her first birthday. One night, after I got the three-year-old out of the bathtub, I walked into the living room to find him sitting in the rocking chair with tears in his eyes as he cradled my little one, who was fast asleep.

Well, nice to know I'm not the only one.

Saw this today--Ohio Mother Leaves Child Alone 3 Weeks. I'd like to see this piece of work be subjected to the same treatment that she subjected her seven-month-old to. But apparently she has a right to keep popping those babies out, so who am I to judge?

This is the kind of thing that makes my stomach turn and ar ethe reason I could never be a cop. There'd be too many dead people if I were on that arrest team. So is forced sterilization violating someone's rights? Yeah probably, so why don't we just start locking these kind of people up. Put her in prison and see what they do to her. Broadcast it as an example.

Sorry, I have NO compassion for parents like this. Personally Ithink they're a waste of air.

 

[Munachi]

We preach birth control because we believe it is better to prevent the pregnancy than to starve the child later. It's not hypocrisy if you practice what you preach.

hm... As the post above refers to less rich countries than ours I suppose that is what your post refers to as well. And in a part I agree - it is of course important to also teach about birth control, about STDs, about alternatives to many children, all of that. But then, it is even more important to make these birth controls and alternatives accessible. Easily accessible, and more than just one method... And keep in mind children are more than an accident to a lot of those people as well - they are a life insurance (in a lot of those places, once you can't work anymore, if you don't have kids you starve), they are help to work in the fields, the store, the household. Definitely not what we think a childhood should be like, but at the same time a necessity for their parents.

But of course, there are huge differences in how much the parents try to have their children have a better future - in those places where it is possible to make that difference.

 

[TBKahuna123]

And keep in mind children are more than an accident to a lot of those people as well - they are a life insurance (in a lot of those places, once you can't work anymore, if you don't have kids you starve), they are help to work in the fields, the store, the household. Definitely not what we think a childhood should be like, but at the same time a necessity for their parents.

But of course, there are huge differences in how much the parents try to have their children have a better future - in those places where it is possible to make that difference.

I don't think we can really apply the above views to those poorer countries, because as you said, in that culture children are an insurance policy. Not to mention that the child morbidity rate is so shockingly high that people ahve many children int he hope that enough will survive to care for them when they are old. This is just how it was in this country during the depression.

We here in the US are beyong that now, and we should act like it. Still we have to be sensitive to the issues of the poor in those countries. What we are really talking about here is responsibility, and though it may be hard to believe, them having many children in those poor countries IS acting responsibly. It' sjust hard to wrap you r mind around the logic in that, but it's there.

 

[warrior queen]

Saw this today--Ohio Mother Leaves Child Alone 3 Weeks.

This is the kind of thing that makes my stomach turn and ar ethe reason I could never be a cop. There'd be too many dead people if I were on that arrest team. So is forced sterilization violating someone's rights? Yeah probably, so why don't we just start locking these kind of people up. Put her in prison and see what they do to her. Broadcast it as an example.

Sorry, I have NO compassion for parents like this. Personally Ithink they're a waste of air.

the point i'm trying to make relates directly to cases such as this...

exactly how would one go about determining which parents would end up doing something like this?
you can't.

therefore, you can't make a decision as to who should or shouldn't be 'allowed' to have kids in the first place.

the best parents in the world can be triggered to go bad and do something unconscienable - and the worst [prospective] parents can sometimes become so brilliantly responsible and worthwhile....
there is simply no way to tell in advance.

 

[TBKahuna123]

exactly how would one go about determining which parents would end up doing something like this?
you can't.

therefore, you can't make a decision as to who should or shouldn't be 'allowed' to have kids in the first place.

Read it though, she already has a child in foster care. You're right, you can't tell the FIRST time. After a parent fucks up though the first 3 times though, you'd think someone would figure it out and do something about it.

 

[brw02]

If you believe it's irresponsible of the woman, you must also believe it is irresponsible of the father, as well.

That is correct. I don't want to generalize too much, but most abortions should never have been necessary to begin with. Both mother-to-be and father-to-be could have acted to prevent conception.