Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

[evesdream]

i'm new posting here, but this is a topic that i've been thinking about *a lot* (read: agonizing over) for the past month.
Particularly the ways in which a parent's use of power guides the kid's interpersonal morality, D/s inclination ect. which i think was touched on here too. so thanks for the thread, looking forward to more reading.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: What does Manipulation look like?

I think that manipulation can take many forms, but two of the most obvious forms for me are the following:

1) When someone tries to evoke feelings of pity from their SO due to past experiences in their life. I dated a woman once who had an abusive ex-husband. I do not doubt that he beat her terribly. She used this as a tool to get me to repeatedly give her "another chance" which I did because I felt badly for her. After a while, I learned that she was using my emotions against me. She mistook my kindness as weakness and tried to manipulate me into forgiving her for things that had nothing to do with her past abuse. Note: this was not a BDSM relationship

2) When someone's repeatedly professes to feel one way yet does does the exact opposite. When someone constantly says the same thing over and over again, and does not change their behavior it sends a strong signal to me that they are trying to manipulate me. I have had this experience on more than one occasion and it stinks of manipulation. An example is a woman I once dated kept telling me how much she loved me, and yet, did nothing to ever show me that she truly felt that way. She often chose to do things with other people on the weekends and yet, would almost cry about how much she missed me on Monday. She was attempting to manipulate me into believing that I held an important place in her heart, and yet her actions demonstrated the opposite. After a while, the words you keep hearing become meaningless. I remember having conversation after conversation with her and she would keep saying "now I get it," but she didn't.

Now my bullshit meter picks up on manipulation very quickly, and I have very little respect for those who practice it.

Ditto.

Talk is cheap. When one's actions do not mirror one's words, the first words that come to mind is BS.

It is not what you say that matters, it is what you do.

Eb

 

[NemoAlia]

Welcome to literotica BDSM, evesdream! If you're interested in reading (and participating in) more discussions about childhood and the guiding of a child's developing "interpersonal morality," you may want to check out these threads:

Earliest BDSM thought. begun by peterpan on 03-16-2002
Did you play BDSM Barbie? begun by Kittenwithawhip on 05-09-2002
Signs of BDSM tendancies in early-life masturbation begun by monster666 on 05-27-2002
on childhood sexual abuse and desire for bondage/submission begun by Unregistered (cyn1959) on 06-14-2002
Thoughts about raising children in the lifestyle? begun by MissTaken on 06-21-2002
Intolerance: a begun by MissTaken on 07-29-2002

And zip? Yeah, right on! I know I have been guilty of the 'pity me' kind of manipulation. It's very common, in fact, even outside of romantic relationships. For example: the mentality that places value on particular ethnic groups based on their history of suffering. (No, I don't intend to be anti-Semitic here... or anti-anything else, for that matter... I'm just saying.)

 

[zipman]

<snip>
And zip? Yeah, right on! I know I have been guilty of the 'pity me' kind of manipulation. It's very common, in fact, even outside of romantic relationships. For example: the mentality that places value on particular ethnic groups based on their history of suffering. (No, I don't intend to be anti-Semitic here... or anti-anything else, for that matter... I'm just saying.)

As a Jewish man, believe me I am more than familiar with that mindset and I truly hate it. Many times at family events I piss people off when I refute what they consider to be anti-semitism. The whole "woe is me" thing is so detrimental.

 

[NemoAlia]

Did everyone notice my sneaky way of finding out what's inside zip's zipper?

(cut kosher meat)

 

[zipman]

Did everyone notice my sneaky way of finding out what's inside zip's zipper?

(cut kosher meat)

LMAO

And a damn impressive piece of "cut kosher meat" it is!

 

[artful]

I love to quote from a prior post,...

...because usually, I can find one that fits my thoughts, and I need only add a point or two, for proper clarification. There are simply too many top notch posts, for me to choose one above the rest, (so I will just *wing it* on this one).

I see MANIPULATION as inherently having TWO sides to it.

1)-The good side-As most would agree, a SURPRISE birthday party is usually looked upon as something well received by the manipulated person. The INTENT can be well meaning, without a grain of SELFISHNESS by the person doing the manipulating, (and is USUALLY the case). The manipulator takes JOY in PLEASING the manipulated, with NO thought of reward for their efforts,...other than the reward of PLEASING the manipulated.

2)-The bad side-Sometimes the person who is doing the manipulating, is doing the SAME thing, but their INTENT,...is not meant to enhance the well being of the one being manipulated.

EXAMPLE:

"Ooooooooh, LQQK at what *I* have done for YOU. *I* GAVE you a SURPRISE birthday party. Will you do the SAME for *ME*? *hint*hint* You know,...OUR anniversary is coming up NEXT week, I wonder what *YOU* will surprise *ME* with?"

In this EXAMPLE, clearly,...the surprise birthday party was not only MANIPULATIVE, but DECEPTIVE in its USE, (the EFFORT of the surprise birthday party was made ONLY,...to place a burden of guilt on the MANIPULATED person, to achieve the MANIPULATORS desired goal).

Selflessness or selfishness, what *IS* the INTENT?

 

[Sandia]

Manipulation... is a good subject, and a tricky and difficult thing to deal with, I think. The heart of the matter is that manipulation by its nature is difficult to spot. Even calling somebody manipulative - sometimes - can be a tactic. I like to think I'm good at telling when I've been manipulated, but I'm not sure that's always the case.

 

[Desdemona]

Re: I love to quote from a prior post,...

...

EXAMPLE:

"Ooooooooh, LQQK at what *I* have done for YOU. *I* GAVE you a SURPRISE birthday party. Will you do the SAME for *ME*? *hint*hint* You know,...OUR anniversary is coming up NEXT week, I wonder what *YOU* will surprise *ME* with?"

In this EXAMPLE, clearly,...the surprise birthday party was not only MANIPULATIVE, but DECEPTIVE in its USE, (the EFFORT of the surprise birthday party was made ONLY,...to place a burden of guilt on the MANIPULATED person, to achieve the MANIPULATORS desired goal).

Selflessness or selfishness, what *IS* the INTENT?

Well, intent is the hard thing to establish, sometimes, isn't it? In my experience, most of the time, manipulation means that there is selfish intent.

 

[justgem]

.

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

Cut the crap Dream, I for one have had enough.

Eb

__________________*
*Quick answer for you Ebony fire is:
My Master knows me to be an Honest woman ,per His own posts about me ,as Do several others and so I will allow nothing anyone else says about me to Hurt me..

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: I love to quote from a prior post,...

Well, intent is the hard thing to establish, sometimes, isn't it? In my experience, most of the time, manipulation means that there is selfish intent.

____________________
I agree with Desas to the "surprise Birthday ,how can you really "2nd guess' the person's "intentions?" arent ya perhaps just LOOKING for trouble then? what if the party INDEED was planned out of "LOVE' for the other person ,to see the JOY on their face? then is THAT also considered " Manipulation'? after all a person who loves Another may indeed do something like that and NOT expect a "reward" but probably will get one anyways,"appreciation"...

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

__________________*
*Quick answer for you Ebony fire is ,if ya DONT like what I have to say ,ya darn sure DONT gotta READ it ,lol JMHO ,,but I OWN IT!!
My Master knows me to be an Honest woman ,per His own posts about me ,as Do several others(and I TRY to respect everyone's opinions here ) but enough is enough already, and I think it's just about time for my OWN health ,that SOMEONE around here got put on IGNORE..
Sorry it has come to this,I will miss Your posts

Since Dream has put me on ignore my life is bereft...NOT!

LOL

 

[cellis]

First I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to post and discuss this issue.

BDSM or plain relationships all have to deal with manipulation at some point in time. I think the issue is for someone who is involved in a BDSM relationship to have a care at what and when lines get crossed.

Again Zip brought up one of the two issues that I have been dealing with lately...

So here is the little story... Himself and I have been looking for a third to share with... maybe just a playmate, maybe more... at any rate we were approached in late May by a woman who was interested in us as a couple. We began a dialogue at that time with her... a couple of weeks she let us know that her husband was back in her life and she wanted to try with him again... only thing was he was really her ex-husband. So we wished her well and kept the door open and went on about our business.

In July she writes and says it is over, that he beat her and wants to meet us. We write back and forth, talk on the phone and make plans to meet... this is in August... she doesn't show and she doesn't call. We don't hear from her for about a week or so when she approaches me on line. I am aloof but I talk with her. She explains that she felt things were moving too fast and she was scared. We told her we understood and were willing to go slowly.

Now we are in October, we had wanted to meet and she continually stated that she wanted to play with us, but Himself was ill and this was postponed for a couple of weeks.... We were supposed to meet this weekend and she did not show and did not call.

There will be no more communication with her on our part.

There is more. But the bottom line is that she manipulated the situation and neither of us are willing to do this with her anymore.

Now part of this was a learning experience that Himself wanted me to have... and I realize that I allowed myself to be manipulated in this situation.

It is so much easier to see it in hindsight....

 

[artful]

cellis

First I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to post and discuss this issue.

It is so much easier to see it in hindsight....

Often,...hindsight is all we can use to evaluate in some circumstances, (It kind of depends on WHEN you find out your surprise birthday was only done for selfish reasons), and SOMETIMES,...we never recognise the fact, we HAVE been manipulated.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

__________________*
*Quick answer for you Ebony fire is:
My Master knows me to be an Honest woman ,per His own posts about me ,as Do several others and so I will allow nothing anyone else says about me to Hurt me..

Do not try your "poor me" shit with me. If you had a good grasp of english, you would find that I did not deign to say anything about you. If would be a waste of my valuable time. I merely told you cut out the self indulgent crap that you keep posting instead of just saying what you have to say.

Ebony

 

[A Desert Rose]

Manipulation is very relative and subjective to the both parties. As Sandia said, sometimes it is hard to see and sometimes it is mistakenly seen. Quite a bit if it comes down to motive.

 

[cellis]

Manipulation is very relative and subjective to the both parties. As Sandia said, sometimes it is hard to see and sometimes it is mistakenly seen. Quite a bit if it comes down to motive.

And sometimes it is easier to see the manipulation when you are on the outside watching...

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

Do not try your "poor me" shit with me. If you had a good grasp of english, you would find that I did not deign to say anything about you. If would be a waste of my valuable time. I merely told you cut out the self indulgent crap that you keep posting instead of just saying what you have to say.

Ebony

Do not try your "poor me" shit with me. If you had a good grasp of english.......



nuff said"

 

[~Dream~]

Re: cellis

Often,...hindsight is all we can use to evaluate in some circumstances, (It kind of depends on WHEN you find out your surprise birthday was only done for selfish reasons), and SOMETIMES,...we never recognise the fact, we HAVE been manipulated.

______________________
SOMETIMES people Feel like they have to Manipulate or PUT DOWN others and it's actually coming from a Very LOW sELF-esteem too Master(psychology Major) knows this.. I loved your explanation tho baby ,makes sense to me..

 

[cellis]

Re: Re: cellis

______________________
SOMETIMES people Feel like they have to Manipulate or PUT DOWN others and it's actually coming from a Very LOW sELF-esteem too Master(psychology Major) knows this.. I loved your explanation tho baby ,makes sense to me..

Just wondering here... who are the "they" that you are speaking of that need to manipulate?

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Re: cellis

Just wondering here... who are the "they" that you are speaking of that need to manipulate?

______________________
please Cellis ,do Not take offense Here ,They is a "general" term meaning ANYONE WHO DOES THE ACT.....AND..for the most part I was truly trying to concentrate on people who Purposely BERATE others as I personally see no Mature reasoning for it.I myself ,have manipulated to get my way and am NOT proud of it at all ,however I will not put someone down just cause they CARE enough to post their TRUE feelings on this board ,thats what I meant .. ty for Your post ..

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

Do not try your "poor me" shit with me. If you had a good grasp of english.......



nuff said"

Dream, you are reaching for straws.

I am not Artful.

Act like an adult and I will treat you like one.

Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: cellis

______________________
SOMETIMES people Feel like they have to Manipulate or PUT DOWN others and it's actually coming from a Very LOW sELF-esteem too Master(psychology Major) knows this.. I loved your explanation tho baby ,makes sense to me..

Looking in the mirror are you?

LOL

Eb

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Manipulation vs. Control and Submission

Dream, you are reaching for straws.

I am not Artful.

Act like an adult and I will treat you like one.

Eb

________________________
always have acted like an adult Eb you just Choose to not think so ,and thats just fine with me as I KNOW better,I am sorry you feel the need to berate me and my views whether they be about Artful or the weather, i CHOSE not to put you on ignore as I feel that sometimes you DO have alot of "helpful advice for me ,however I do NOT agree with the way you treat Your subs and that is MY perrogative.. I do wish we could BOTH get along civilly ,for the Forum's sake but I feel alot of animosity from each of us and for my own part ,I am publicly stating that I am sorry for mine and hope you accept my apology..