Moral Dilemmas

[Eilan]

I understand how you're still bothered today, Eilan, very easily I understand. It can take a lot of time to release ourselves, to forgive ourselves for the part we played in a hurtful situation. I am facing that today. I have faced it before too. That is what hurts the most... even though this situation is different in many ways, the feeling of self-loathing is there.

I never met the guy's wife. I wouldn't know her if I passed her on the street, which likely won't happen because she lives 100 miles from me. Hell, I don't even know her name--if I was told, I don't remember it.

Even though I tell myself, "It was a one-time thing. It was just sex, and all it was ever gonna be was sex," I still feel guilty. The guilt's eased, obviously, over time (it's been over 15 months since this happened). But it's still there.

 

[Cathleen]

I never met the guy's wife. I wouldn't know her if I passed her on the street, which likely won't happen because she lives 100 miles from me. Hell, I don't even know her name--if I was told, I don't remember it.

Even though I tell myself, "It was a one-time thing. It was just sex, and all it was ever gonna be was sex," I still feel guilty. The guilt's eased, obviously, over time (it's been over 15 months since this happened). But it's still there.

Taking responsibility for my actions isn't always easy but for me it leads to good lessons and an easing of that guilt. Time can be a good thing.

 

[Eilan]

Time can be a good thing.

Absolutely. But then these thought-provoking threads come along and force me to *gasp* think!

It's a very good thread, BTW.

 

[TBKahuna123]

And then there was a one-time threesome situation that my hubby and I had with someone who was married. I knew that he was married. I knew that the marriage was in serious trouble, and I justified my actions by saying that since this guy's divorce was inevitable, it didn't matter what I did. But it ended up mattering. To me. I thought I could handle it, but I couldn't. And it bothers me to this day.

Guilt serves but one purpose, to make us realize something which we have done which is contrary to how we feel we should live our lives and interact with others. Guilt is not a punishment, but a means to an end, the end of which is us facing our mistakes and taking responsibility for them.

You've done both. You've identified that situation and taken responsibility for the fact that it was an action against your moral standards. You've rectified it by realizing that saying to yourself that his divorce was inevitable was simply an excuse and still violated the way you want to live your life. It's now time to reconcile that and let the guilt go, because it can serve no further purpose except to cloud your vision for the future. That guilt's purpose ahs been fulfilled.

 

[SweetErika]

Guilt serves but one purpose, to make us realize something which we have done which is contrary to how we feel we should live our lives and interact with others. Guilt is not a punishment, but a means to an end, the end of which is us facing our mistakes and taking responsibility for them.

You've done both. You've identified that situation and taken responsibility for the fact that it was an action against your moral standards. You've rectified it by realizing that saying to yourself that his divorce was inevitable was simply an excuse and still violated the way you want to live your life. It's now time to reconcile that and let the guilt go, because it can serve no further purpose except to cloud your vision for the future. That guilt's purpose ahs been fulfilled.

I know this is meant for Eilan, but...
*Print*

 

[Eilan]

Not quite the same thing. . .

I'm not going to go into the details here, but I once had to choose between doing what was legally correct and what was ethically correct (in my view, anyway).

I chose to do what was ethically "correct," and I have absolutely no regrets.

 

[bobsgirl]

How far does spousal loyalty go?

There's something in my past that my children need to know about. My husband is against their knowing. I feel very strongly that they need to know. The best I could promise him was that I would tell him I would let him know before I told the kids.

 

[Guest]

 

[SweetErika]

Not quite the same thing. . .

I'm not going to go into the details here, but I once had to choose between doing what was legally correct and what was ethically correct (in my view, anyway).

I chose to do what was ethically "correct," and I have absolutely no regrets.

I think this could be the same thing. Most of us are law abiding citizens, and generally believe laws are there for good cause, they align with our personal morals, and everyone should respect the law, right? It's rare for me, but once in awhile I'll find myself in a situation where other strongly held morals conflict with my belief I should follow the law. My current situation is one of them, but another good example would be the Thanksgiving Deer Suicide incident:

I'm a good citizen, believe in following the law, and think others should do so as well.

I believe when an animal is in severe pain, we have the responsibility to end their suffering in a humane way, if we have the means to do so.

It's against the law to purposefully kill an animal without a license.

I would have hastened the deer's death to end its suffering in a heartbeat had I had the means, but it still would have bothered me on some level to have technically broken the law.

 

[silverwhisper]

i am periodically...uneasy...w/ things i need to do professionally to ensure that the business continues. these are not illegal things, but i consider them ethically bad, which quite frankly i think is worse.

they're all ultimately quite minor, but still...i like to try to live my life in a way that i wouldn't mind seeing what i did on the front page. some of these things, i wouldn't exactly be jumping up and down for joy if that came to pass.

ed

 

[eudaemonia]

Taking responsibility for my actions isn't always easy but for me it leads to good lessons and an easing of that guilt.

What the Brilliant and Bright One said.

Now that I've seen some concretes posted, basically thoughts about cheating, here're my two cents on that particular topic.

I basically cheated on myself when I was 25. I've always had a strong sense of self, of what was right for me and what was wrong. Basically, actions that go against my nature, if acted upon, I consider to be acts of self-betrayal. My personal ethic was -- and still is -- that I would never cheat on a lover any more than I would cheat on myself. An example of the latter would be taking a lover who is married. And that's what I once did.

The affair went on -- and off and on and off -- for 7 years, before my self-loathing and guilt caught up with me. Betraying myself was about the worst thing I've ever done, but I learned one of the best lessons of my life: Don't ever go against my nature, or else pay dearly for the privilege.

Oddly enough, I now have far more compassion for those around me who've not only gotten involved with someone who was married, but also those who've cheated on their spouses. I've learned that there are some times, in some cases, for some people, good reasons for doing so. I am not them, they are sovereign, and they have their own natures to abide. That may or may not include looking outside their marriage. But simply put, it's not my call.

Part of what led me to the above conclusion was the resentment I felt when others insisted I was wrong to hold fidelity and monogamy as some of my highest values. I'm simply not built to not care if my lover is off with someone else; it's just not my nature. By honoring my nature, sometimes in the face of fierce opposition, I was able to let go of casting others into moral dilemmas that really aren't dilemmas for them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's late, I'm lightheaded with hunger and a little drained after a long day. I hope what I wrote above makes at least some sense. I may edit a bit tomorrow when I'm a little sharper.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The legal vs. the ethical: laws are meant to serve humans as rights holders; humans do not serve laws.

 

[erdave]

morality and pleasure

Moral diversity is everywhere on virtually every issue. What or who, gives us the authority to prefer one person’s or society’s views over another? We’re in no position to make the judgment call. The safe thing to do is to doubt the existence of objective morality, and see that all moral issues “are matters of convention and are relative.”
I struggle with morality questions many times a week. Not as the actuality in a physical mode but more from a cognitive standpoint.

The central point here is, Is Morality objective or subjective?

(1) If morality is objective, then we would not see widespread cultural variation in moral matters.
(2) There is in fact wide spread cultural variation in moral matters.
(3) Therefore, morality is not objective.

Moral issues for me exist primarily in marriage and sexuality. I grew up in a Christian environment and continue to attend church with my family. I work hard as a farmer and continue to pursue a graduate education. I perceive my wife as a loving wife and I hope she has the same perception about me as her husband. I don’t steal and I am honest. My problems become one of conflict with my subjective morality.

My wife and I have had several three-somes but all with the same guy. He is married and we knew he was safe. If we look at this from a behaviorist point of view; all is well because we pursed the “pleasure principle”. No one was injured but morally we broke some of our laws. That bothers the both of us. Will we continue this behavior? Probably not because the moral dilemma overrides the pleasure principle in time.

Our commitment to each other is stronger than the happiness from pleasure yet we need pleasure. It is a drive for all of us. I receive much pleasure by writing stories in Erotica. Are they written in first person? No! Would I indulge in some of the topics I cover? Probably not! Writing allows me and hopefully the reader to go places those moral values would greatly crunch any pleasure I might receive from the actual committing of the written acts.

Happiness is something which is both precious and final. This seems to be so because it is a first principle of human nature that is inherently flawed by our moral values. These moral values are necessary to obtain human happiness and yet I struggle to find both. Both goals are obtainable but strict guidelines.
My wife and I in our three-some. I enjoyed watching her with another man. Would I have honestly joined in and performed a sexual act with Mike. I haven’t yet because I am afraid her happiness also in the three-some would diminish because that’s something we haven’t discussed. So it easy to write about it.

I believe and trust my wife’s and my moral system and we do allow the pleasure principles to over ride it at times but in reality we try to blend the two.
enjoy your day dave

 

[onlyerics]

Nice thread, Ms. Erika!

I work in the hospital...so this is a great battleground for moral dilemmas. I'll bring up two incidents so please bear the long post.

Incident # 1:
Once there was a girl who was brought to the emergency room who had an abortion. She did the abortion herself by using a hanger. When it was time to draw her labs, the healthcare told her, "You're going to hell because you had an abortion." Needless to say, it caused a ruckus and the healthcare worker is now facing suspension...and it is possible that she might get fired.
Now, I am a Catholic...and our teachings are against abortion. However, if somehow the pregnancy is fatal to the mom or the child, the rules are bent a bit...but if it the abortion was similar as in the case I mentioned above...then it's definitely against the Catholic church.
When my co-worker told me about it, I thought: Abortion is wrong, but what came out of my mouth was, "She (the healthcareworker) shouldn't have have said that."
But would I have told this young lady that healthcare worker did? Probably not because it's against my job to say that, and it's really not my place to say it. Nor it is my business. She might have had some reason, like maybe she was in an abusive relationship or she was raped. I don't know. I think that whatever she did would be between her and the Man Upstairs. However, I think that killing is wrong anyway but I wouldn't have dared to say something like that to the patient. Our job is to treat them, but then sometimes I also wonder as a Catholic: Besides going to church and doing good, isn't it part of my duty to also uphold the moral teachings of the Church?

Incident # 2:
This also happened in the hospital. A man with a belly came to the ER dressed in long coat, and asking for some help. When they opened the coat, they found a two month old baby attached to him like a penile accessory. In short, he raped the baby. The two males nurses who found out started beating the **** out of this guy. Because the two nurses didn't act profesionally, they got fired that night and faced with assault charges. (And yes, the baby was already dead.)
Deep down inside, I don't think I would have blamed them for what they did, but again this behavior is not allowed in the hospital because once again our job is to treat patients. But it's difficult to face these challenges everyday.
I didn't follow up on the story of this man but I do know that he sued the hospital, and because the hospital didn't want all this bad publicity, they kept the investigation under a real tight lid.

 

[Eilan]

This also happened in the hospital. A man with a belly came to the ER dressed in long coat, and asking for some help. When they opened the coat, they found a two month old baby attached to him like a penile accessory. In short, he raped the baby. The two males nurses who found out started beating the **** out of this guy. Because the two nurses didn't act profesionally, they got fired that night and faced with assault charges. (And yes, the baby was already dead.)

Too bad they didn't beat that oxygen-sucking piece of shit to death, though I'd like to think he's getting his (and then some) in prison.

 

[Melesse]

I work in the hospital...so this is a great battleground for moral dilemmas. I'll bring up two incidents so please bear the long post.

Interesting. Now that you mention it, I work in a High School as a teacher, and there are so many things I want to tell my students about the way the world works. For example, our school is an abstinence only school, due to the preponderance of christians in the area. Additionally, I have a hard time teaching evolution because (and this really happens) I get a very public outcry by students in class that it never happened. Additionally, I had a student answer every question on a quiz on Mountains "God did it."

All of those cases definitely warred my opinion about what is right vs. what the school wants me to do. What the school wants me to do is not make waves, irregardless of what I think the truth is.

Gyah! The parents are way worse than the kids.

Melesse

 

[onlyerics]

Too bad they didn't beat that oxygen-sucking piece of shit to death, though I'd like to think he's getting his (and then some) in prison.

Uh-huh! I know that's right. The baby was his step-daughter. And to think he had the gall to sue the hospital. GRRRRR!!!!
But you know what Eilan? I would hate to think that this guy would be able to get out of prison several years down from now and do the same thing to someone else's child. A very scary thought! And it really makes me mad when I hear some child molester or rapist gets out of prison after a few years because of "good behavior" or some other stupid crap.

 

[onlyerics]

Interesting. Now that you mention it, I work in a High School as a teacher, and there are so many things I want to tell my students about the way the world works. For example, our school is an abstinence only school, due to the preponderance of christians in the area. Additionally, I have a hard time teaching evolution because (and this really happens) I get a very public outcry by students in class that it never happened. Additionally, I had a student answer every question on a quiz on Mountains "God did it."

All of those cases definitely warred my opinion about what is right vs. what the school wants me to do. What the school wants me to do is not make waves, irregardless of what I think the truth is.

Gyah! The parents are way worse than the kids.

Melesse

Melesse: I can see what you're saying here.
I was a pre-med student in college...and I would like to add that it was a private Christian college. In my junior year, I took up comparative vertebrate anatomy, and of course my professor would discuss about how animals evolved. There's always a debate about how it never happened...and if it did...when? One student actually asked, "How does the timeline of the Mesozoic era fit in the bible?" Honestly, I really felt sorry for my professor, who was young. I knew for a fact that he was Catholic since he went to my church, so he must have had some conflict about his beliefs and what he teaches. He would always tell us, "As a professor, it's my job to teach this class. It's my job to present theories."
Of course, one time I went home and my grandma saw the my vetebrate anatomy book. And grandma...man gotta tell you, she is a die-hard Catholic.I think she freaked and suddenly thought that maybe sending me to pre-med was a mistake because she was shocked that this "material" was taught at my school. She and my parents fought over this. Of course, I had to reason with grandma that if she really wanted me to become a doctor, I was required to take and pass the class. She didn't agree with what I was learning, but there was really nothing she could do since I was determined to go through the class, which BTW was really interesting. I really learned a lot in that class.

 

[eudaemonia]

Additionally, I had a student answer every question on a quiz on Mountains "God did it."

What did you do?

 

[Melesse]

What did you do?

Gave them a zero.

Melesse

 

[TBKahuna123]

I work in the hospital...so this is a great battleground for moral dilemmas. I'll bring up two incidents so please bear the long post.

Incident # 1:
Once there was a girl who was brought to the emergency room who had an abortion. She did the abortion herself by using a hanger. When it was time to draw her labs, the healthcare told her, "You're going to hell because you had an abortion." Needless to say, it caused a ruckus and the healthcare worker is now facing suspension...and it is possible that she might get fired.
Now, I am a Catholic...and our teachings are against abortion. However, if somehow the pregnancy is fatal to the mom or the child, the rules are bent a bit...but if it the abortion was similar as in the case I mentioned above...then it's definitely against the Catholic church.
When my co-worker told me about it, I thought: Abortion is wrong, but what came out of my mouth was, "She (the healthcareworker) shouldn't have have said that."
But would I have told this young lady that healthcare worker did? Probably not because it's against my job to say that, and it's really not my place to say it. Nor it is my business. She might have had some reason, like maybe she was in an abusive relationship or she was raped. I don't know. I think that whatever she did would be between her and the Man Upstairs. However, I think that killing is wrong anyway but I wouldn't have dared to say something like that to the patient. Our job is to treat them, but then sometimes I also wonder as a Catholic: Besides going to church and doing good, isn't it part of my duty to also uphold the moral teachings of the Church?

I have a friend who had a similiar moral issue. He was a surgical assistant for a local catholic hospital. Now as a catholic hospital supported by the church they are not supposed to do procedures contrary to the teachings of the church, such as abortions, tubal ligations, etc. and htis is why he chose to work at a catholic hospital. Now his problem arose from tubals. Their policy was that if a patient requested a tubal they'd send them over to the surgical center next door, which was independant. If the patient had a c-section they would do the tubal rather than opening them up a second time, which made sound medical sense. There were however, many times when they would do these tubals anyway without transfering the patient and where no c-section was involved. This is contrary to the policy of the hospital and put him in a bad situation with his strong catholic beliefs.

When he complained about this, they told him that he should just recuse himself formthe case. The problem was though, they would never inform him they were doing a tubal until they started. So here he was stuck, he couldn't walk out on a patient that was laying open on an OR table. Their response was tough shit. Talk about a morale dilema?

Well he went back about his business, but work was never the same. Every shit job that could come down the pipe he wound up with. They heaped all the extra work, problem patients, etc. on him. When he finally spoke up and said something about it, they laid him off. Pretty shitty to stand up for your morale beliefs, do the right thing and get fucked because of it. He didn't tell these patients "You're going to hell because you had a tubal", he said to the hospital "I'm being forced to do something I don't believe in that we aren't supposed to do anyway." Especially something like a tubal, which while it might be uncomfortable to pen a patient up again, isn't something life threatening. The thing is that these patients were primarily MEdicaid patients and those with no insurance, and they were here because the other hospital in town wouldn't help them. Send em to the Catholic "non-profit" hospital who won't turn anyone away.

So to YOUR moral dilema, I would say no you aren't in a position where you are forced to say something. Your coworker saying that to that young woman was unnecessarily cruel. Most women who have abortions regret it enough without heaping on scorn and acting holier than thou. Contrary to what some people believe, that's not what we as Catholics are taught to do. Better to say if you need to talk about what's happened, here's a number and have a Catholic counseling service card or something. I know not everyone will agree with that, but I'm speaking to a specific issue we face as Catholics.

Incident # 2:
This also happened in the hospital. A man with a belly came to the ER dressed in long coat, and asking for some help. When they opened the coat, they found a two month old baby attached to him like a penile accessory. In short, he raped the baby. The two males nurses who found out started beating the **** out of this guy. Because the two nurses didn't act profesionally, they got fired that night and faced with assault charges. (And yes, the baby was already dead.)
Deep down inside, I don't think I would have blamed them for what they did, but again this behavior is not allowed in the hospital because once again our job is to treat patients. But it's difficult to face these challenges everyday.
I didn't follow up on the story of this man but I do know that he sued the hospital, and because the hospital didn't want all this bad publicity, they kept the investigation under a real tight lid.

Interesting dichotomy here. Half a page ago I was talking about Catholic morals and beliefs, and now I'm going to talk about murder. I can honestly say that seeing this, he'd be dead. I'd plead guilty to Murder 2 and spend the rest of my life behind bars, but this would be one dead sumbitch! It would be slow, brutal and effective, probably involving lots of blood and lots of pain.

I'm sorry but there are some things that are just too hideous to forgive. Violence against children is one of them, and this is the worst possible scenario you could have painted for me. Seeing this, the shocking effect, the sheer horror of it, I can honestly say that I would lose any morals or ethos I might have. Consequences be damned.

Oh, on that note, let me say how sorry I am that you had to witness that.

 

[Eilan]

Gave them a zero.

Did you see any backlash from that?

The thing is that these patients were primarily MEdicaid patients and those with no insurance, and they were here because the other hospital in town wouldn't help them. Send em to the Catholic "non-profit" hospital who won't turn anyone away.

This is an interesting issue. I've been without medical insurance for a time, and I know how embarrassing it is to have to fill out paperwork promising to pay my bill (or, worse, have to be "counseled" by a person in the business office). People who had insurance or a medical card didn't have to go through that; they flashed a card and got to see the doctor. Unless I wanted to go to the ER for a non-life-threatening situation, I didn't have a non-profit hospital nearby.

What proportion of the patients were non-Catholic? And where do you draw the line between providing quality medical care and forcing your beliefs on someone who might not believe as you do?

There's a medical facility near me that's a combination of a for-profit clinic and a non-profit hospital (it's non-denominational, BTW). The facilities are physically joined, but they're actually separate organizations. The doctors work at both facilities; there were a couple of times when I was pregnant that my prenatal appointments at the clinic ran late because my doctor was at the hospital with a patient.

Here's what's interesting: Two of the four urologists at this facility are Catholic (I know this because they're active at the church that my ex and I used to attend). They do vasectomies on a regular basis. I don't know if they have any issues with doing them, but they do them pretty regularly. One of the general surgeons is Catholic, and she refers vasectomy patients to her colleagues.

 

[Melesse]

Did you see any backlash from that?

No, but I was surprised, given how vocal he was about it. I was fully expecting hell to come pouring down on my head from that.

On the other hand, he stopped spouting off about God, so maybe he was just testing me lol.

In other news, I got called into the office today b/c a student had told his parents that I was showing them kiddie porn in class. Not even discussing the stupidity of anyone who would do that, I have to wonder, where do these kids come up with this stuff?

Melesse

 

[Cathleen]

So many interesting situations here. So much I've never considered or maybe notice is more correct. I wonder if my mind glosses over things that it ought not.

I was raised Roman Catholic too, and I suppose I still consider myself Catholic but under my understanding. I know to many Catholics I'd be labled as lapsed or non-practicing. I don't worry much about the label and it might be because I don't want to or that I feel confident in my beliefs and actions. I spent many thousands of hours talking with an uncle, who was a Cannon Law Judge among his titles in the archdiocese.

I see how he helped shape my beliefs, just as my parents, Religious education and the like. As a little girl I remember asking him if there were dogs in heaven, he immediately answered ''No''. My reply was almost as quick that "In my heaven there will be dogs." His laugh was big - he had a great laugh, but he shook his head and said "OK." Afterall I was six years old. But it seemed like the first of many adjustments I made to the man-made institution of religion.

We were very close all through my life and the conversations we had are some of my treasured memories. I don't know what the church would lable him but he didn't agree with all that the church preached. I think he lived it but held some individual beliefs. Maybe that's where I get my ''pick and choose'' attitude, well, some of it.

Something eudaemonia said about feeling more compassion after being in a situation herself... I think that's wise. I also think it's right too. I guess I'm not sure where morality comes from, I feel it in me but it is a fluid aspect of what makes me me.

I might hold a certain thought about a particular behavior but if I haven't had experience with it, I cannot be sure of my belief.

I'm confusing myself but what a great thread -- such terrific things to consider.

 

[Eilan]

In other news, I got called into the office today b/c a student had told his parents that I was showing them kiddie porn in class. Not even discussing the stupidity of anyone who would do that, I have to wonder, where do these kids come up with this stuff?

 

[onlyerics]

So far in the past three hospitals (and these are non-denominational) I have worked in, the motto is all the same: The patients come first. We have to respect what they want whether or not our beliefs are the same.

TBK's friend should not have been fired. That is totally unfair and unjust. As healthcare workers, we also have the right to refuse to treat a patient. If we're in a situation where we're not comfortable to do the procedure, then the patient is referred to another healthcare worker. What the hospital should have done was give him other surgical assignments. He shouldn't have been forced to do those procedures especially if felt so strongly against them.

Here's another incident...but this is on the patient's side. This patient needed blood because she had anemia. We had explained that the transfusion would treat her. Yet, she refused because she was a Jehovah's Witness. We knew that the transfusion would help her, but we can't force her to accept the treatment because of her beliefs. We still had to respect what she wanted.