More than a 4-letter word

[Etoile]

answer it from a BDSM perspective even though it could be a kinky-but-vanilla topic?

As I was reading this thread I was thinking to ask if BDSM and kink were the same thing. I see here you are saying it is not - what is your thought on the difference? Where is the line between BDSM and kink? (I am not sure there is such a line, but since we are discussing the line between BDSM and vanilla, perhaps there is one between kink and BDSM too?)

 

[AngelicAssassin]

... perhaps there is one between kink and BDSM too?

Sure. In the former, fisting stops at the wrist; while in the latter, elbow and beyond.

 

[Quint]

Sure. In the former, fisting stops at the wrist; while in the latter, elbow and beyond.

You're horrible. Although I now have "Stinkfist*" going through my head, so I'll forgive you.

Etoile, to answer your question...I'd say the same vague standards apply to differentiate kink and BDSM as differentiate abuse and BDSM: context and intent. On pretty much every exotic activity thread, we get a few people that say, "Is this really BDSM?" Take our necrophilia thread, or any of the brave bestiality threads, or scatplay, and I think even a rape thread or two fell prey. An action on its own has no label; it's just an action. It's the context of how it's used that, to me, determines where it falls on the kink-o-spectrum. Spanking is pretty common; but what degree of control/sadism/humiliation is being employed by that action? That's where I draw the line. Yeah, it's a fuzzy line. It's easier to color inside it that way.

*Something has to change.
Undeniable dilemma.
Boredom’s not a burden
Anyone should bear.

Constant overstimulation numbs me
But I would not want you
Any other way.

Just, not enough.
I need more.
Nothing seems to satisfy.
I said, I don’t want it.
I just need it
To breathe, to feel, to know I’m alive.

Finger deep within the borderline.
Show me that you love me and that we belong together.
Relax, turn around and take my hand.

I can help you change
Tired moments into pleasure.
Say the word and we’ll be
Well upon our way.

Blend and balance
Pain and comfort
Deep within you
Till you will not want me any other way.

But, it’s not enough.
I need more.
Nothing seems to satisfy.
I said, I don’t want it.
I just need it
To breathe, to feel, to know I’m alive.

Knuckle deep inside the borderline.
This may hurt a little but it’s something you’ll get used to.
Relax. slip away.

Something kinda sad about
The way that things have come to be.
Desensitized to everything.
What became of subtlety?

How can it mean anything to me
If I really don’t feel anything at all?

I’ll keep digging til
I feel something.

Elbow deep inside the borderline.
Show me that you love me and that we belong together.
Shoulder deep within the borderline.
Relax. turn around and take my hand.
-Tool, "Stinkfist"

 

[catalina_francisco]

You're horrible. Although I now have "Stinkfist*" going through my head, so I'll forgive you.

Etoile, to answer your question...I'd say the same vague standards apply to differentiate kink and BDSM as differentiate abuse and BDSM: context and intent. On pretty much every exotic activity thread, we get a few people that say, "Is this really BDSM?" Take our necrophilia thread, or any of the brave bestiality threads, or scatplay, and I think even a rape thread or two fell prey. An action on its own has no label; it's just an action. It's the context of how it's used that, to me, determines where it falls on the kink-o-spectrum. Spanking is pretty common; but what degree of control/sadism/humiliation is being employed by that action? That's where I draw the line. Yeah, it's a fuzzy line. It's easier to color inside it that way.

I have to agree. It not only comes into play with the more taboo areas, but I also think if people are going to declare something as not BDSM based on the activity alone, then before the taboo areas should come those which are fairly commonplace in the mainstream community such as oral and anal. We have threads on them here, and in actuiality many if not most of the posts could have been made by vanilla people who are partial to those activities in their own sexual play, and yet it is never questioned as having or not having a place here. Often there is no hint of kink or D/s etc., in any of those discussions and yet it is jumped on as OK, but the minute someone mentions something more taboo and not so bloadly practiced, it gets labelled as not belonging here. What I also notice is that many who say they do not like labels and protest loudly about freedom in not sticking within the confines of expected bahaviour in relation to labels, ar the same ones who declare some topics as outside of BDSM and not belonging, regardless on intent and how they are applied in the lives of those contemplating or discussing them.

Catalina

 

[bridgeburner]

Not sure how I missed this thread, but I'm glad I've found it now. Lots of stuff to touch on but what's foremost in my mind at the moment is the difference between when humiliation is okay and when that humiliation is abuse.

Ultimately it really depends on the person being humiliated to define.

There are a lot of behaviors I will tolerate and even welcome from people that I love and trust that I would not from a stranger. My best friend gets to call me a fucking cunt because I know that she's not saying it because she loathes me. I didn't have to have a conversation with her granting her permission to verbally abuse me.

Likewise within a romantic or sexual relationship there's a flexible degree of trust and not everything is always going to be spelled out. The trick is learning what is too far or too much and relying on both parties to be clear about that.

Sometimes you have to say to a partner "You really hurt my feelings. That wasn't okay." It happens. It's not the end of the world or the relationship unless the offending partner continues the behavior after being informed. Of course some infractions can't be recovered from and, again, that's pretty much determined by the wounded party.


-B

 

[Quint]

As much as I roll my eyes about "harassment in the workplace" training, they have some valid points. One of these is that for a behavior to be judged as harassment it must be repeated, specifically after the victim has indicated to the other person that the behavior is undesired. Too bad life doesn't have safewords.

b, you led me to an interesting thought: abuse isn't necessarily the final line. I think T has abused me in the past. He's crossed into "dude, that's not cool." The thing is, does he continue to abuse me on the same things after we discuss what happened and how I reacted and why? It's not fatal. It's a learning experience. So yeah, there is some flexibility in play, for the most part. Obviously there are buttons that would probably push some to cutting ties with their abuser were they pushed. One part luck, two parts communication.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[Quint]

.............

 

[FungiUg]

Interesting discussion.

The two concepts I would throw into the mix are:

Rather than intent, I would stress mutual intent. To be "BDSM" rather than "abuse", it has to work for all parties involved.

I forget what the other one was. Um... oh, yeah. "Damage". To me, even if there is mutual consent, if someone is being damaged it edges over into abuse. No, I don't put cutting or needle play in that category. But broken bones I would. Eating someone I would. Emotional damage also counts.

 

[Puman]

Interesting discussion.

The two concepts I would throw into the mix are:

Rather than intent, I would stress mutual intent. To be "BDSM" rather than "abuse", it has to work for all parties involved.

I forget what the other one was. Um... oh, yeah. "Damage". To me, even if there is mutual consent, if someone is being damaged it edges over into abuse. No, I don't put cutting or needle play in that category. But broken bones I would. Eating someone I would. Emotional damage also counts.

You're right.. a very interesting and worthy read... I'll sit in my lurky corner and and just mull over the parts about "defining" BDSM and drawing lines between kinky, vanilla and BDSM... I am new to this and haven't the foggiest where I'd fit in, so I shy away from definitions and just try to enjoy this journey, wherever it may lead.
As for abuse... well, I don't try to define that within BDSM either, since people play at different levels of intensity, (whether phychologically or physically). I just firmly believe (and this is not restricted to BDSM) that when your fear is no longer related to a scene/limit/sexual act and is being directed at your partner, then you're in trouble...