Must physical pain be a part of a D/s relationship?

[JMohegan]

So... let me get this straight.

pain = no
humiliation = no
sadism = no (i think we can infer this one by virtue of the no pain, no humiliation)
punishment = no

praise = yes
helping = yes
nurturing = yes

i would kinda like to know where the D is in this D/s. i know it's possible but perhaps that would be a good discussion and helpful to the OP to find out exactly in what way he is Dominant.

i see the carrot. Where is the stick? Does there have to be one?

Some people exert authority and influence simply by virtue of who they are.

Character, charisma, confidence when in charge. These attributes can go a long way toward inspiring deference, and sometimes the perception of these attributes is all that's necessary for deference to take place.

This isn't to say that those who punish their partners lack character, charisma, or confidence. The only point here is that the need or desire for punishment is not universal in D/s.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Some people exert authority and influence simply by virtue of who they are.

Character, charisma, confidence when in charge. These attributes can go a long way toward inspiring deference, and sometimes the perception of these attributes is all that's necessary for deference to take place.

This isn't to say that those who punish their partners lack character, charisma, or confidence. The only point here is that the need or desire for punishment is not universal in D/s.

Exactly.

I obey my PYL not because he may spank me if I don't. He has not earned my respect, obedience, love and submission because of the pain he can deal out. It is because of who he is.

I obey him because to do otherwise is unthinkable. His disappointment is much more of a punishment than any physical lashing. Even the one time when he did physical beat me as punishment the fact that I made him so unhappy was far worse.

I crave physical force, physical beatings--but the purpose they serve is purely sexual on both my PYL's part and my own.

The right person can easily dominant without physical force.

 

[SubKekiLee]

Exactly.

I obey my PYL not because he may spank me if I don't. He has not earned my respect, obedience, love and submission because of the pain he can deal out. It is because of who he is.

I obey him because to do otherwise is unthinkable. His disappointment is much more of a punishment than any physical lashing. Even the one time when he did physical beat me as punishment the fact that I made him so unhappy was far worse.

I crave physical force, physical beatings--but the purpose they serve is purely sexual on both my PYL's part and my own.

The right person can easily dominant without physical force.

I agree with you ES.....

 

[ataxia.girl]

Exactly.

I obey my PYL not because he may spank me if I don't. He has not earned my respect, obedience, love and submission because of the pain he can deal out. It is because of who he is.

I obey him because to do otherwise is unthinkable. His disappointment is much more of a punishment than any physical lashing. Even the one time when he did physical beat me as punishment the fact that I made him so unhappy was far worse.

I crave physical force, physical beatings--but the purpose they serve is purely sexual on both my PYL's part and my own.

The right person can easily dominant without physical force.

Yeah but she's already married to him and apparently he isn't exuding enough charisma, character and whatever else to inspire this in her or she wouldn't be throwing tantrums and acting insolent to begin with.

i agree with you and i get you if you are meeting someone in the context of them being Dominant from the start. Its always easier to submit to someone if they've always appeared Dominant. Its quite a bit harder if you've been married to them for 5-10 years already.

Plus you say he earned your respect and submission. i think that's harder to accomplish in an existing vanilla relationship where patterns are already set. Does D/s have a place when maybe the person is not the "right" person? i personally think you can make it work if both parties are willing to compromise and work at it but the dynamic will probably never be as intense as it is when you set out choosing your Dom or sub based on their qualities as such.

 

[twysted73]

Some people exert authority and influence simply by virtue of who they are.

Character, charisma, confidence when in charge. These attributes can go a long way toward inspiring deference, and sometimes the perception of these attributes is all that's necessary for deference to take place.

This isn't to say that those who punish their partners lack character, charisma, or confidence. The only point here is that the need or desire for punishment is not universal in D/s.

Sounds like a team building exercise ( '99 ) or a self help group.
We're talking about a D/s relationship not just a nilla one, right?

Sure there are respectable levels of those elements included in what most consider a healthy D/s relationship. But as little ataxia mentioned, where are those other elements that make this the unique and altogether intimate relationship that they wish it to be if there's not one bit of negative reinforcement and punishment?
"Now honey, I don't like it when you're acting like that."
VS.
"You are coming quite close to a spanking babydoll. I would watch my choice of words and the next set of actions if I were you."

One has a Ward Cleaver feel. The other? I would use myself.
I will go out on a limb and say I'll bet by him being on this forum, he's probably leaning towards the latter.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Yeah but she's already married to him and apparently he isn't exuding enough charisma, character and whatever else to inspire this in her or she wouldn't be throwing tantrums and acting insolent to begin with.

i agree with you and i get you if you are meeting someone in the context of them being Dominant from the start. Its always easier to submit to someone if they've always appeared Dominant. Its quite a bit harder if you've been married to them for 5-10 years already.

Plus you say he earned your respect and submission. i think that's harder to accomplish in an existing vanilla relationship where patterns are already set. Does D/s have a place when maybe the person is not the "right" person? i personally think you can make it work if both parties are willing to compromise and work at it but the dynamic will probably never be as intense as it is when you set out choosing your Dom or sub based on their qualities as such.

My PYL and I were vanilla for 5 months before we became a D/s couple. We didn't choose each other because of our Dominating or submissive personalities, we liked each other for other reasons. It wasn't until a few months into the friedship part of the relationship that he had so much experience as a Dom.

I wasn't the perfect little obedient angel I am now ) ) at the beginning. It took his firm voice and absolute intolerance for my deviations from his ideal to get me to this point. But not threats of pain.

In the OP's case if he had a submissive personality for most of his marriage I would agree withyou that it may be difficult to begin to submit to him, but not impossible.

Not everybody responds best to physical threats or discipline. Even growing up I being banished to my room was much more effective than a spanking.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Sounds like a team building exercise or a self help group.
We're talking about a D/s relationship here, right?

Sure there are elements of this included in what most consider a healthy D/s relationship. But as little ataxia mentioned, where are the elements here that make this the unique and altogether intimate relationship that they wish it to be if there's not one bit of negative reinforcement and punishment?
"Now honey, I don't like it when you're acting like that."
VS.
"You are coming quite close to a spanking babydoll. I would watch my choice of words and the next set of actions if I were you."

One has a Ward Cleaver feel. The other? I would use myself.
I will go out on a limb and say I'll bet by him being on this forum, he's probably leaning towards the latter.

It doesn't have to be "Now honey, I don't like it when you're acting like that." lol

The first time I said "I can't" to my PYL he responded in a very calm, very firm tone of voice "You can, and you will" . No discussion, no wrangling no nothing. To me that is much much more effective than You are coming quite close to a spanking babydoll. I would watch my choice of words and the next set of actions if I were you."

The threat is the end of the relationship which for me would have been the worst possible thing. For the OP it wouldn't be the end of his marriage (I would hope) but the end to the D/s part of it. His wife is the one who originally brought it up. If she doesn't want to submit, then there is no Domination/submission relationship.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Not everybody responds best to physical threats or discipline. Even growing up I being banished to my room was much more effective than a spanking.

Yeah, i am actually more like you. All i need is an authoritative voice and i just do what i'm told to tell the truth. A threat of a spanking will probably just get a challenging "prove it" look from me as that flips a different switch (the one where i really like being physically handled). Spankings still modify my behaivor but its in a different way. They make me feel more loved than anything and that just makes me want to please even more. They certainly do not instill fear.

That's interesting that your PYL and you were vanilla to start out with. i have a whole new picture now. Very cool.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Yeah, i am actually more like you. All i need is an authoritative voice and i just do what i'm told to tell the truth. A threat of a spanking will probably just get a challenging "prove it" look from me as that flips a different switch (the one where i really like being physically handled). Spankings still modify my behaivor but its in a different way. They make me feel more loved than anything and that just makes me want to please even more. They certainly do not instill fear.

That's interesting that your PYL and you were vanilla to start out with. i have a whole new picture now. Very cool.

Well, we were a rather kinky vanilla.

I don't know if spankings/beatings etc make me feel more loved but they do increase the intensity of feelings, and the best sex ever is after an especially exhausting pain session.

 

[Homburg]

Sounds like a team building exercise or a self help group.
We're talking about a D/s relationship here, right?

Sure there are elements of this included in what most consider a healthy D/s relationship. But as little ataxia mentioned, where are the elements here that make this the unique and altogether intimate relationship that they wish it to be if there's not one bit of negative reinforcement and punishment?

*blinks*

What is "unique and altogether intimate" about negative reinforcement and punishment?

 

[JMohegan]

Sounds like a team building exercise or a self help group.
We're talking about a D/s relationship here, right?

Sure there are elements of this included in what most consider a healthy D/s relationship. But as little ataxia mentioned, where are the elements here that make this the unique and altogether intimate relationship that they wish it to be if there's not one bit of negative reinforcement and punishment?
"Now honey, I don't like it when you're acting like that."
VS.
"You are coming quite close to a spanking babydoll. I would watch my choice of words and the next set of actions if I were you."

One has a Ward Cleaver feel. The other? I would use myself.
I will go out on a limb and say I'll bet by him being on this forum, he's probably leaning towards the latter.

Yes, we're talking about D/s. Feel free to mock those who eschew punishment, and kick us out of your personal kink club. I, for one, won't mind a bit.

One size does not fit all. See Ecstaticsub's excellent responses on this thread.

 

[ataxia.girl]

*blinks*

What is "unique and altogether intimate" about negative reinforcement and punishment?

This is a tricky one for me and i can't really decide how i feel about it. i know that i don't really respond very well to negative reinforcement. i don't need it and it doesn't work nearly as well as praise. On the other hand an underlying threat that there could be negative reinforcement IF the Dominant decided to use it does add to the authority of the Dominant IMO in a way that nothing else can.

i do have a hard time imagining D/s without either punishment or sadism. Where is the contrast then? i still don't think anyone has addressed D/s without either dynamic. Is the answer bondage? Orgasm control? Tickle torture? i'm not signing up.

 

[Homburg]

This is a tricky one for me and i can't really decide how i feel about it. i know that i don't really respond very well to negative reinforcement. i don't need it and it doesn't work nearly as well as praise. On the other hand an underlying threat that there could be negative reinforcement IF the Dominant decided to use it does add to the authority of the Dominant IMO in a way that nothing else can.

i do have a hard time imagining D/s without either punishment or sadism. Where is the contrast then?

Don't get me wrong. I dig painplay. I'm not going to have a relationship without being able to indulge my mean streak. I just have issues with the concept that BDSM requires negative reinforcement and punishment, or, moreover, that they are required for a relationship to be unique and intimate.

Frankly, I can think of all kinds of vanilla relationships that are chock full of negative reinforcement and punishment and are neither unique, nor intimate. And I'm not even talking abusive relationships.

The only times I've said something akin to "You are dangerously close to a spanking" it was obviously in jest. I spank because I damned well want to, and have never spanked one of my gals as punishment. Punishments are to be avoided in my house, and I make damned sure that they stick out, are very different, and are utterly and inescapably not-fun. Amazingly enough, this helps to ensure that punishments are rarely needed.

 

[Caitlynne]

I'm confused here. Are we equating all pain play with punishment?

I mean, [to me] just because I get a spanking or a flogging, doesn't mean I'm being punished. It means I'm being spanked or flogged. The reason is probably [and now that I think of it always has been] because he wants to do it. It's not about punishment at all. He doesn't need to come up with an excuse to get into some pain play, even though I'm not a masochist nor am I craving pain. I don't crave it. I don't like it. But when it happens I'm not afraid or concerned that it's some kind of punishment. It's me submitting to what he wants to do.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I'm confused here. Are we equating all pain play with punishment?

I mean, [to me] just because I get a spanking or a flogging, doesn't mean I'm being punished. It means I'm being spanked or flogged. The reason is probably [and now that I think of it always has been] because he wants to do it. It's not about punishment at all. He doesn't need to come up with an excuse to get into some pain play, even though I'm not a masochist nor am I craving pain. I don't crave it. I don't like it. But when it happens I'm not afraid or concerned that it's some kind of punishment. It's me submitting to what he wants to do.

i don't know. The OP said he doesn't like inflicting pain, humiliation or punishment. So far everyone has answered that punishment isn't necessary (except Twysted) and pain\humiliation\sadism isn't necessary but my question is what is D/s without either?

 

[JMohegan]

i do have a hard time imagining D/s without either punishment or sadism. Where is the contrast then? i still don't think anyone has addressed D/s without either dynamic. Is the answer bondage? Orgasm control? Tickle torture? i'm not signing up.

No one is asking you to sign up for D/s sans pain. We're talking about the OP and his wife here.

What I tell people who come to me for advice on incorporating kink into their relationships is that D/s is about control. One person decides the what, where, when, and how regarding bedroom activities and possibly chores, leisure activities, etc., as well. The other person defers to the preferences of the one in charge. The ways in which couples deal with strong disagreements, mistakes, and other snags in the general plan, vary considerably. Some employ punishment, others don't.

SM is a totally separate concept involving hurts-so-good sensations, and sometimes (but not always) god-I-really-hate-this actual pain.

Some people embrace D/s without SM. Others embraces SM without D/s. Others embrace both.

 

[ataxia.girl]

No one is asking you to sign up for D/s sans pain. We're talking about the OP and his wife here.

If you read his original post he also mentions he does not like pain, humiliation or punishment.

I guess you could say that my "style" tends more tward mental dominance. Im more about helping, nurturing and praise (when warranted) so that she may be led down the path of self-confidence, then about "punishment's".
It seems though from reading alot of different posts on the subject that for alot of people, this lifestyle is about pain and humiliation (to each his or her own, no "judgement" intended!).

As you or ES pointed out it was his wife who brought up D/s in the first place so perhaps she has the burden to submit first but from her perspective that may just reinforce for him that his style of not inflicting pain, humiliation or punishment works.

The title said pain but there seems to be more to it and i think the question is valid. Can you have D/s with none of those elements? i'm very aware pain does not have to be an element. i have had very intense relationships where the sadism was almost exclusively based in humiliation and degradation.

 

[Caitlynne]

What I tell people who come to me for advice on incorporating kink into their relationships is that D/s is about control. One person decides the what, where, when, and how regarding bedroom activities and possibly chores, leisure activities, etc., as well. The other person defers to the preferences of the one in charge. The ways in which couples deal with strong disagreements, mistakes, and other snags in the general plan, vary considerably. Some employ punishment, others don't.

SM is a totally separate concept involving hurts-so-good sensations, and sometimes (but not always) god-I-really-hate-this actual pain.

Some people embrace D/s without SM. Others embraces SM without D/s. Others embrace both.

OK, now I see what happened in the thread. Thanks!

Oh, and I agree. As I said, everyone makes their own relationship and that's just how it is.

 

[leod65]

Thank you ALL for the wonderful and informative responses.
It may take me awhile to give a "real" response as I read through everything.

Just wanted everyone to know I hadnt "abandoned" the thread.

 

[BiBunny]

Me, personally, I love S&M. Truth be told, I'm probably more of a S&M-er than a D/s-er. It's not for everyone, though.

I never do the "punishment" thing. I don't ask for much, but what I do ask for, I expect to be done efficiently and effectively. If you're not willing to do it, then there are at least five others who'd LOVE to do what I ask without threat of "punishment." So either do it or don't do it, but don't waste my time either way.

I guess we call this the "Don't let the doorknob hit you in the ass on the way out" school of domination.

 

[twysted73]

Yes, we're talking about D/s. Feel free to mock those who eschew punishment, and kick us out of your personal kink club. I, for one, won't mind a bit.

One size does not fit all. See Ecstaticsub's excellent responses on this thread.

I have no club.
I welcome differences in opinion.
Mocking? Wasn't my intent. I have no control over your sensitivities or perceptions.
Punishment? It's beautiful in all it's forms so long as it fits those enjoying it.

This is and was my initial intent and point. That, as with most anything regarding human interraction, never one sided nor black & white.

No truer words were spoken when it was said "What works for you may not work for someone else".

This.....is my club.

 

[ecstaticsub]

If you read his original post he also mentions he does not like pain, humiliation or punishment.



As you or ES pointed out it was his wife who brought up D/s in the first place so perhaps she has the burden to submit first but from her perspective that may just reinforce for him that his style of not inflicting pain, humiliation or punishment works.

The title said pain but there seems to be more to it and i think the question is valid. Can you have D/s with none of those elements? i'm very aware pain does not have to be an element. i have had very intense relationships where the sadism was almost exclusively based in humiliation and degradation.

As JM said it is all about control. You can have D/s without pain, humiliation or punishment.

As an example--I have a vanilla marriage and a D/s extramarital relationship. In neither case is pain, humilation or punishment necessary. (in my D/s relationship that is the fun, sexually arousing stuff) The big difference is that in my vanilla marriage my husband does not own me, does not control me. I argue with him (light-heartly--it's a very solid marriage) I make at least 50% of the decisions within the family. On the other hand for my D/s relationship--my PYL owns me, I can not tell him when I want to go to sleep at night, he makes all of the decisions concerning when we meet, if I will have sex with others, etc. And it is the overall emotional feeling sof submission, obedience, ownership that makes it different than my vanilla marriage.

There are some things that are the same--I love, repect and honor both men and both relationships.

The point being I don't need pain, humiliation or punishment to differentiate between the two.

 

[twysted73]

As JM said it is all about control. You can have D/s without pain, humiliation or punishment.


There are some things that are the same--I love, repect and honor both men and both relationships.

The point being I don't need pain, humiliation or punishment to differentiate between the two.

Which is what we are all basically saying.
"To each their own".
But my point was this.....there must be some form of "bad consequence" present whether it be Bunny's walk out the door stance, JM's "feel my presence" approach or little ataxia's "if you care about me you'd make me feel like the cum on the rug sucking whore that i know I am" vibe if some form of control is to be felt by the submissive. Otherwise it's a vanilla negotiation one can find in the produce isle at your local grocery store.

So Leaod 65....after much ado about nothing....your question: "Must physical pain be a part of a D/s relationship?"

No. But you must find something to take it's place to put her where she longs to be placed and kept.
Whatever it is that works for you both.
But there must be something to draw the Top/bottom line.

 

[JMohegan]

If you read his original post he also mentions he does not like pain, humiliation or punishment.



As you or ES pointed out it was his wife who brought up D/s in the first place so perhaps she has the burden to submit first but from her perspective that may just reinforce for him that his style of not inflicting pain, humiliation or punishment works.

The title said pain but there seems to be more to it and i think the question is valid. Can you have D/s with none of those elements? i'm very aware pain does not have to be an element. i have had very intense relationships where the sadism was almost exclusively based in humiliation and degradation.

Your question is valid, but it has been answered multiple times on this thread.

The answer is yes. It is possible to establish and sustain a D/s relationship that involves neither pain nor humiliation nor punishment.

 

[JMohegan]

Which is what we are all basically saying.
"To each their own".
But my point was this.....there must be some form of "bad consequence" present whether it be Bunny's walk out the door stance, JM's "feel my presence" approach or little ataxia's "if you care about me you'd make me feel like the cum on the rug sucking whore that i know I am" vibe if some form of control is to be felt by the submissive. Otherwise it's a vanilla negotiation one can find in the produce isle at your local grocery store.

Deference inspired by the character, charisma, and confidence of the one in charge is not deference based on some form of "bad consequence".

As for Bunny's stance, I assume that this sort of thing works both ways in most non-marital relationships. That is to say, if needs aren't being met and/or the terms of the relationship aren't being honored, either party should walk away from the relationship. Marriage complicates the matter, of course.