my Master's question for Lit's BSDM community:

[Primalex]

Primalex is one of OP's "baby rattlesnakes," of course. It will be interesting to see if he ever grows up.Thank you!

Well, if you are the prime example of a "grown up", then I'll be Peter Pan voluntarily.

 

[NomadLady]

Well, if you are the prime example of a "grown up", then I'll be Peter Pan voluntarily.

As long you stay "Peter Pan" then don't get so upset when people don't take you seriously....

 

[JMohegan]

It irritates me when people take this tack and assume that any PYL types not willing to try submission do it for reasons like their egos rather than, say, purely because they have absolutely no desire to submit and it would do nothing for them whatsoever.

It doesn't irritate me. The fact is that being struck with anything makes me want to inflict bodily harm on the one doing the striking, and being told what to do in my private life seriously pisses me off. Other people can label that failure to let go of ego, or anything else. But the fact, itself, remains. If someone respects me less for it, so what?

As for the general cautionary points being made re experience or lack thereof, I'd say that experience is obviously a big plus IF you're talking about topping, but only topping. However, if you're talking about an actual relationship, then the bond between the individuals involved is what's really important.

So my advice would be: If bottoming to a non-partner, pick someone with experience and demonstrable skill. But if you want to bottom or sub in a relationship, pick a person of good character, with whom you share a strong bond, and the depth of that person's experience won't matter.

 

[NomadLady]

It doesn't irritate me. The fact is that being struck with anything makes me want to inflict bodily harm on the one doing the striking, and being told what to do in my private life seriously pisses me off. Other people can label that failure to let go of ego, or anything else. But the fact, itself, remains. If someone respects me less for it, so what?

As for the general cautionary points being made re experience or lack thereof, I'd say that experience is obviously a big plus IF you're talking about topping, but only topping. However, if you're talking about an actual relationship, then the bond between the individuals involved is what's really important.

So my advice would be: If bottoming to a non-partner, pick someone with experience and demonstrable skill. But if you want to bottom or sub in a relationship, pick a person of good character, with whom you share a strong bond, and the depth of that person's experience won't matter.

This last sentence is so true....Thanks JMohegan.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It doesn't irritate me. The fact is that being struck with anything makes me want to inflict bodily harm on the one doing the striking, and being told what to do in my private life seriously pisses me off. Other people can label that failure to let go of ego, or anything else. But the fact, itself, remains. If someone respects me less for it, so what?

And I don't exactly respect you less for it-- but I would have some qualms about playing with you. As I said, I don't play much with my husband. He doesn't know what things feel like, and it becomes obvious when he tops. GRR!

And absolutely-- about being in a relationship with you. Being told what to do in my private life pisses me off too, but sometimes the pissoff is worth it.

As for the general cautionary points being made re experience or lack thereof, I'd say that experience is obviously a big plus IF you're talking about topping, but only topping. However, if you're talking about an actual relationship, then the bond between the individuals involved is what's really important.

So my advice would be: If bottoming to a non-partner, pick someone with experience and demonstrable skill. But if you want to bottom or sub in a relationship, pick a person of good character, with whom you share a strong bond, and the depth of that person's experience won't matter.

This is good advice, I think D/s is NOT my forte.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

It does help to have the perspective of being a pyl when you try PYL. I knew the things I like/don't like and I used them to my advantage.
...
It was incredibly helpful in my opinion to know the pyl view.

Thank you!

I agree-- I am a better PYL because I know what pushes my buttons as a pyl. I learned ropework a top-- but I know where I want to put the ropes on someone because I have felt them on myself.

Cheers.

This I can understand now, as a basis for PYL skills, yes? Knowing how things feel to you will give you an approximate base to work off, and then have further refining of those skills as a PYL?

 

[BiBunny]

As much as I like older men, I've still always thought the "you must be old and experienced to be any good at BDSM" thing was entirely self-serving. It's always the "old, experienced" dudes you see spouting this, and it seems to smack of insecurity. What, are you afraid that if you don't keep repeating it, the subs will move on to one of those hot young guys? If you're a confident person--which is what most people look for in a partner--you won't have any trouble finding folks to play with or be in a relationship with, regardless of what the other guys are doing.

 

[Stella_Omega]

As much as I like older men, I've still always thought the "you must be old and experienced to be any good at BDSM" thing was entirely self-serving. It's always the "old, experienced" dudes you see spouting this, and it seems to smack of insecurity. What, are you afraid that if you don't keep repeating it, the subs will move on to one of those hot young guys? If you're a confident person--which is what most people look for in a partner--you won't have any trouble finding folks to play with or be in a relationship with, regardless of what the other guys are doing.

I'm sure it's often middle-aged insecurity, but it's also it's from witnessing young inexperienced people make real bad messes that have to be mopped up-- where the the real bad mess is a human being.

I would also say that the messes are usually your basic relationship type mess. But if you are part of a community, your messes get made in the community eye and discussed by the community. You have to accept that along with the support and the opportunities for exhibitionism.

 

[00Syd]

So then what about the 50 year old guy who just started exploring BDSM last year, but who gets to claim an assumed experience level because of his age?

I see that far more often than I see all of these young, inexpeirenced tops who are out causing bodily harm to their bottoms. For the most part, young tops are pretty damn upfront about their new-ness (how could they not be?), and, in my experience, are more willing to take the time to learn their skilz than their older n00b counterparts.

 

[BiBunny]

So then what about the 50 year old guy who just started exploring BDSM last year, but who gets to claim an assumed experience level because of his age?

I see that far more often than I see all of these young, inexpeirenced tops who are out causing bodily harm to their bottoms. For the most part, young tops are pretty damn upfront about their new-ness (how could they not be?), and, in my experience, are more willing to take the time to learn their skilz than their older n00b counterparts.

Yep. At least a 20 year old guy has an excuse for being immature. All the new middle-aged divorcees (or, in some cases, still married people) who think BDSM is awesome because now they can finally get someone to suck their cock 'cause hey, she's submissive, really have no excuse other than general assy-ness.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So then what about the 50 year old guy who just started exploring BDSM last year, but who gets to claim an assumed experience level because of his age?

What about him? He's a lying fuck. He might be able to get away with the lie-- because a 22 year old can't pretend to have thirty years experience, but he's lying anyway.

Mostly, those are exactly the guys I think of when I think of "young inexperienced doms." It isn't the age, it's the experience.

I see that far more often than I see all of these young, inexpeirenced tops who are out causing bodily harm to their bottoms. For the most part, young tops are pretty damn upfront about their new-ness (how could they not be?), and, in my experience, are more willing to take the time to learn their skilz than their older n00b counterparts.

get 'em young and train 'em right, I always say.

 

[MisterSir]

So then what about the 50 year old guy who just started exploring BDSM last year, but who gets to claim an assumed experience level because of his age?

I see that far more often than I see all of these young, inexperienced tops who are out causing bodily harm to their bottoms. For the most part, young tops are pretty damn upfront about their new-ness (how could they not be?), and, in my experience, are more willing to take the time to learn their skilz than their older n00b counterparts.

I love this woman.

For the purposes of this post, please ignore the fact we'd make a horrible couple.

 

[00Syd]

I love this woman.

For the purposes of this post, please ignore the fact we'd make a horrible couple.

Awww

 

[KoPilot]

Nofanks. My take-charge, stubborn, and occasionally domineering assholishness is much better suited to my platonic friendships. :B

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

So then what about the 50 year old guy who just started exploring BDSM last year, but who gets to claim an assumed experience level because of his age?

I see that far more often than I see all of these young, inexpeirenced tops who are out causing bodily harm to their bottoms. For the most part, young tops are pretty damn upfront about their new-ness (how could they not be?), and, in my experience, are more willing to take the time to learn their skilz than their older n00b counterparts.

That's a rather prevalent attitude too, unfortunately.

I have a friend, who's about my age, been in his local scene for 5+ years, and he absolutely rankles at how older people with less experience than he has tell him to hush up and listen to his elders, just because he's not 30 yet.

They're also the same older people who get their noses out of joint about TNG groups isolating themselves from the rest of the 'community' - but sometimes, who can blame them?

 

[00Syd]

That's a rather prevalent attitude too, unfortunately.

I have a friend, who's about my age, been in his local scene for 5+ years, and he absolutely rankles at how older people with less experience than he has tell him to hush up and listen to his elders, just because he's not 30 yet.

They're also the same older people who get their noses out of joint about TNG groups isolating themselves from the rest of the 'community' - but sometimes, who can blame them?

I can. Quite easily.

 

[Stella_Omega]

*laughing*

 

[MisterSir]

I can. Quite easily.

No, she means 'who can blame the TNG people for setting up their groups when they get the reception they get from the existing community'.

 

[00Syd]

No, she means 'who can blame the TNG people for setting up their groups when they get the reception they get from the existing community'.

Oh, well in that case, right on.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Here are two articles both by Guy Baldwin on the subject of the original Old Guard, the leather men. The first one is a tad abrasive maybe?
http://www.leatherleadership.org/library/LLC6Baldwin.htm

But he was in a more philosophical mood three years later;
http://www.hawkeegn.com/bdsm/oldgd.html

(and by the way, this site http://www.evilmonk.org/a/menu.cfm

should be in everyone's bookmarks to hand out when new people show up looking for advice...)

 

[midwestyankee]

Stella, I'm never going to know what it feels like to have a dozen clothespins pinching my labia nor will I ever understand what it feels like to a woman to have nipple clamps squeezed tight. Surely you can't be suggesting that I can not responsibly use clothespins or nipple clamps for this reason?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella, I'm never going to know what it feels like to have a dozen clothespins pinching my labia nor will I ever understand what it feels like to a woman to have nipple clamps squeezed tight. Surely you can't be suggesting that I can not responsibly use clothespins or nipple clamps for this reason?

Try 'em on your scrotum, I think it should be a fairly close match.

And your nipples might be more sensitive than mine: many men's are, and my nips actually aren't. The guys I've played with seemed to enjoy clothespins a lot more than I do.

But seriously, I learned to judge the tightness of a clamp by pinching the skin between my thumb and forefinger, you probably have as well.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

No, she means 'who can blame the TNG people for setting up their groups when they get the reception they get from the existing community'.

Oh, well in that case, right on.

See? It's cos I speak English English, not Amercian English. *nods*

 

[midwestyankee]

Try 'em on your scrotum, I think it should be a fairly close match.

And your nipples might be more sensitive than mine: many men's are, and my nips actually aren't. The guys I've played with seemed to enjoy clothespins a lot more than I do.

But seriously, I learned to judge the tightness of a clamp by pinching the skin between my thumb and forefinger, you probably have as well.

Indeed, I have tested out certain things on myself but I contend that it's still impossible for me to understand how analogous actions might feel to any particular female.

My point is not to nit-pick your argument but rather to force it back up away from the particulars to its proper level: in general, no one should attempt to top another in a particular way without seriously making an effort to understand the likely consequences—both good and bad—of the act. I also contend that a top who pays close attention to how her actions are affecting her bottom can learn by doing. Of course, this means that you don't set out to do an under-the-skin hook suspension in your first-ever play session and I think that most reasonable adults would recognize their limitations in this regard.

Of course, it's also true that not all adults are reasonable and recognize their limitations.

I'm approaching 60 far faster than I would like and I recognize that there must be thousands of tops in their early twenties who have more experience and more knowledge of their craft—as you call it—than I. No doubt Syd's boyfriend is one of them and I'm sure he and she know many others as well. If someone looks at me and draws the inference that I'm a wise old top with decades of experience, that's on them and not me. No one will ever hear that suggestion from me. I'm happy to keep learning at my current pace, which is slowly and carefully.

In short, generalizations almost always reduce the strength of one's arguments. As does getting too deeply into the weeds.

 

[00Syd]

Indeed, I have tested out certain things on myself but I contend that it's still impossible for me to understand how analogous actions might feel to any particular female.

My point is not to nit-pick your argument but rather to force it back up away from the particulars to its proper level: in general, no one should attempt to top another in a particular way without seriously making an effort to understand the likely consequences—both good and bad—of the act. I also contend that a top who pays close attention to how her actions are affecting her bottom can learn by doing. Of course, this means that you don't set out to do an under-the-skin hook suspension in your first-ever play session and I think that most reasonable adults would recognize their limitations in this regard.

Of course, it's also true that not all adults are reasonable and recognize their limitations.

I'm approaching 60 far faster than I would like and I recognize that there must be thousands of tops in their early twenties who have more experience and more knowledge of their craft—as you call it—than I. No doubt Syd's boyfriend is one of them and I'm sure he and she know many others as well. If someone looks at me and draws the inference that I'm a wise old top with decades of experience, that's on them and not me. No one will ever hear that suggestion from me. I'm happy to keep learning at my current pace, which is slowly and carefully.

In short, generalizations almost always reduce the strength of one's arguments. As does getting too deeply into the weeds.

Firstly, MWY, you rock. When people are open and honest, and most importantly, unassuming, things usually work out pretty great.


I think that tops should make an effort to understand the sensations that they are playing with, and try to understand their effects, but I don't think that they necessarily need to experience them themselves in order to besafe, competent, and effective tops. For example, I don't think that a rope-bondage top necessarily needs to be suspeneded in order to be able to suspend others.

And p.s., I'm writing this on my phone, so please excuse any spelling misteakes/typos