my Master's question for Lit's BSDM community:

[rebel_subdued]

Great responses!

Again, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. Lots of things to think about, for sure! Some very good points made!

humbly,
r_s

 

[Stella_Omega]

Firstly, MWY, you rock. When people are open and honest, and most importantly, unassuming, things usually work out pretty great.


I think that tops should make an effort to understand the sensations that they are playing with, and try to understand their effects, but I don't think that they necessarily need to experience them themselves in order to besafe, competent, and effective tops. For example, I don't think that a rope-bondage top necessarily needs to be suspeneded in order to be able to suspend others.

And p.s., I'm writing this on my phone, so please excuse any spelling misteakes/typos

Wait a minute-- unassuming? You're talking about people who Top, Dom/me, MASTER/RISS... and in a number of other ways, lord it over other people.

And that last spelling "misteake" has got me craving a chunk of rare Black Angus, so I hate you right now.

 

[where]

Another curious question - if dominants need to be older/seasoned/experienced/trustworthy/whatever to be trustworthy, wouldn't the same apply to submissives? If not - why do more dominants chase inexperienced young little things, than strong, outspoken, intellectual, experienced, seasoned, older submissives? Seems a bit of a double standard, IMO.

I think it's because there seems to be a bit of a teacher/pupil dynamic in BDSM (in many UK schools, teachers are actually called 'Masters') which is why you get notions of 'training', the age youth thing and so on.

And it has to be said that some dominants DO chase the older, strong, outspoken and intellectually challenging subs. Or, in my case, maybe-at-some-point-in-the-future-subs.

But yes, it is a bit of a double standard and I suspect that along with the education discourse suggested above, it's also simply a really good way for much older men (who may totally lack any PYL experience) to get physical and intimate with very young women that they would have a snowball in hells chance with in a vanilla dynamic.

Ok, honest question here, because I do see this path to learning to PYL a fair bit.

How does it actually help? Given the subjective nature of people, how does learning to bottom/submit give you the skills to top? I know you'd learn what things feel like for you but how do you learn how to wield those skills on another person? Wouldn't it be better to learn as a PYL from a PYL?


And a less serious question, but one I'm thinking of nonetheless: Conversely, why is it never/rarely mentioned that a pyl should learn their craft as a PYL first?

I know this has been answered a bit already, but I think if it gives you the alternate perspective then it is something that you might find improves your technique. There is a suggestion of this in more vanilla relationships as well. So for example a woman will somehow intuitively give better cunnilingus than a man of the same age and sexual experience (I'm willing to be shot down for this, but, BUT I suggest that I'm proved wrong by being subjected to cunnilingus from whichever men or women disagree with me. Just to prove your points you understand ).

My (maybe) Dom 'trained' as a bottom and I'm grateful for it. He also wants me to Dom as part of MY putative sub training (does it come across that I'm really not wholly into this dynamic with both feet?). However he's not going to let me train on him. Oh no. I have to find another man to Dom and then he'll guide and teach me so I get an understanding of his standpoint. It makes sense, but if presented with a submissive man I don't think I would have a clue what to do. A woman... well maybe.

a) Nobody likes used, worn and damaged tools.
b) It takes experience to use a tool properly.

Simple.

The tool benefits from the experience of its artisan, it does not have to worry about excessive abrasion or damage. The artisan benefits from a properly working tool. Despite this, some old tools need sixteen pages of additional safety instructions. Who wants this?

The good news is: even the most damaged tools can still be used as fuck toys or exhibits, there will always be a market for them.

The most valuable and functioning tools in my workshop are tools I inherited from my Dad. Things were better made back then and tended to be simply and elegantly designed without coming with 120 page booklet in 12 languages and full of warnings about voiding warranties. The tools are so well used that I can do stuff with them that they weren't even designed for because unlike modern tools, they are more adaptable and functional. It is true that they may not shine as brightly, but it takes a hell of a lot to break them.

So my advice would be: If bottoming to a non-partner, pick someone with experience and demonstrable skill. But if you want to bottom or sub in a relationship, pick a person of good character, with whom you share a strong bond, and the depth of that person's experience won't matter.

QFT

 

[catalina_francisco]

Before I start, this is not Catalina so do not blame her for my dumb story.

</DUMB STORY ALLERT>
I have this thing about trying to make a point by telling stories, so hereby the story of a cookie who wanted to be a baker.

Once upon a time there was a cookie named Flan. Flan was a very ambitious cookie, since when he was dough,no even before that when he was just flower he had always wanted to be a baker. Flan thought the best way of becoming a baker was to first experience what it was to become dough, then be baked and then finally become a cookie, This way he would have an unique perspective on baking cookies and it would make him the best cookie baker ever.

Unfortunately for Flan, he soon realized he seemed to miss some essentials to become a baker, for example he did not have hands. And he also realized that just because you have been baked it did not make him understand the chemical process of turning dough into a cookie.

So while he was philosophizing about what he had to do to learn these skills, the baker got hungry and ate FLAN.

The moral of this story: If you want to be a baker you better go to a baking school instead of trying to become a cookie.

< /END DUMB STORY ALLERT>

I have been a Dominant (Sorry for being politically incorrect, but honestly too many frigging rules for posting now days) for somewhere between 15 to 20 years by now. I have been traditionally trained by a Female Dominant and if there is one thing that I have learned is that I know very little. However I do know this, to be taught how to be a Dominant or PYL it has very little value of starting by being a Sub/pyl, much better is to find an experienced Dom and get an apprenticeship.

Francisco.

 

[richard_daily]

Personally, given that all of this is his opinion, I think it would be useful to hear things straight from the horse's mouth, instead of filtered through his submissive.... but that's just me.

You put it much more nicely than I was about to.

 

[Netzach]

So then what about the 50 year old guy who just started exploring BDSM last year, but who gets to claim an assumed experience level because of his age?

I see that far more often than I see all of these young, inexpeirenced tops who are out causing bodily harm to their bottoms. For the most part, young tops are pretty damn upfront about their new-ness (how could they not be?), and, in my experience, are more willing to take the time to learn their skilz than their older n00b counterparts.

Give the little lady one of them stuffed poodles. Ding ding ding.

 

[Netzach]

Try 'em on your scrotum, I think it should be a fairly close match.

And your nipples might be more sensitive than mine: many men's are, and my nips actually aren't. The guys I've played with seemed to enjoy clothespins a lot more than I do.

But seriously, I learned to judge the tightness of a clamp by pinching the skin between my thumb and forefinger, you probably have as well.

I'm sorry but this is so farking commonsense to me that I still find arguments to the contrary ludicrous.

MWY you run. LOL. Clearly your brain chemicals function in some kind of normal pain-to-pleasure capacity - being a submissive doesn't make one a sensory freak of nature who cums from their first titclamping. It hurts her too - only she likes it. Don't you want to manipulate how much to the most sensitive fraction? I sure the hell do.

And personally, I *know* that I could not do this with a cane were I not a reluctant hardass who has had one. Maybe that's just me. I try not to judge those who disagree, but I'm not going to change my tune on how valid I find it.

It gives you a *general* sense of "I am delivering what's likely very owwy if I use this in this way" when you self test. I use a combianation o competent top "hey you hit me with this" and self test on most things. I know I fucking HATE electrostim because I've had it I know I like (who knew) needles because you live once, sure, try one.

Also - most ego-developed humans find it very conflict inducing humiliating and rough to lick boots or go through submissive ritualistic things. Just because someone's eroticizing it doesn't make it easier -which is why I think it was good for me. I can now annoy the shit out of my bottoms with the fact that I've done it too, so really, you can certainly do better than me.

I see the argument as basically people who don't want to try broccoli because they don't like it among people who can politely fork some in in the interest of experience though it may not be that hot.

 

[CutieMouse]

Before I start, this is not Catalina so do not blame her for my dumb story.

<snip>

(Although I did like your story. )

Francisco.

A Francisco sighting!

 

[00Syd]

I'm sorry but this is so farking commonsense to me that I still find arguments to the contrary ludicrous.

MWY you run. LOL. Clearly your brain chemicals function in some kind of normal pain-to-pleasure capacity - being a submissive doesn't make one a sensory freak of nature who cums from their first titclamping. It hurts her too - only she likes it. Don't you want to manipulate how much to the most sensitive fraction? I sure the hell do.

And personally, I *know* that I could not do this with a cane were I not a reluctant hardass who has had one. Maybe that's just me. I try not to judge those who disagree, but I'm not going to change my tune on how valid I find it.

It gives you a *general* sense of "I am delivering what's likely very owwy if I use this in this way" when you self test. I use a combianation o competent top "hey you hit me with this" and self test on most things. I know I fucking HATE electrostim because I've had it I know I like (who knew) needles because you live once, sure, try one.

Also - most ego-developed humans find it very conflict inducing humiliating and rough to lick boots or go through submissive ritualistic things. Just because someone's eroticizing it doesn't make it easier -which is why I think it was good for me. I can now annoy the shit out of my bottoms with the fact that I've done it too, so really, you can certainly do better than me.

I see the argument as basically people who don't want to try broccoli because they don't like it among people who can politely fork some in in the interest of experience though it may not be that hot.

I know that the part I bolded is just one small part of your overall post, but I think that new PYLs should have to write it in lines on a chalkboard until they memorize it. Srsly.

 

[Netzach]

As for baby rattlesnakes I think they rock. I think being older has made me more liable to pick sleep over sex and hasn't really taught me profound D/s magic I didn't know at 26 - though it's made me more mature and sane.

 

[Stella_Omega]

My initial feedback is in the form of a couple of questions.

When your Master was a "baby rattlesnake," what is the worst damage he ever inflicted on a submissive partner? What form did the damage take, and was it possible to repair that damage? If so, how long did the repairing take?

We haven't gotten an answer to this question.

We aren't surprised.

 

[midwestyankee]

For the record, I try every food at least once. And I like broccoli.

Netz, your point is well taken. Particularly your notion of being able to adjust the pain to the slightest degree. Being able to do that makes a lot of sense. And if I were playing with a variety of people and planned on playing with a variety of bottoms, I would certainly have to develop my skills in a more refined way in order to accomplish that fine control under varying conditions. For the moment, though, I play with only one person and I can distinguish her responses to a very fine degree.

So to go back to something I said earlier, when I de-particularize this away from myself and up toward a more general application, I can see where learning by being done unto can have merit. I think it's easy to universalize one's own experience and conclude that all others ought to experience the world as we do.

It doesn't work that way. My particular experience is not generalizable in the whole and I sit with an amended world view.

 

[Netzach]

For the record, I try every food at least once. And I like broccoli.

Netz, your point is well taken. Particularly your notion of being able to adjust the pain to the slightest degree. Being able to do that makes a lot of sense. And if I were playing with a variety of people and planned on playing with a variety of bottoms, I would certainly have to develop my skills in a more refined way in order to accomplish that fine control under varying conditions. For the moment, though, I play with only one person and I can distinguish her responses to a very fine degree.

So to go back to something I said earlier, when I de-particularize this away from myself and up toward a more general application, I can see where learning by being done unto can have merit. I think it's easy to universalize one's own experience and conclude that all others ought to experience the world as we do.

It doesn't work that way. My particular experience is not generalizable in the whole and I sit with an amended world view.

This makes sense - insamuch as if you are doing this in a completely relationship-specific way with one person you have years of communication with, sure, it seems reasonable to get attuned to their reactions regardless of what you know.

I have to go with M's say so and reactions when I tie off everything on his scrotum, it's true.

For some people this isn't one of those topics they want to be an info-sponge on and it has no bearing outside the relationship. For me, relationships are often a means to an end of self knowledge - I'm a narcissistic bitch at the end of the day and I treat sex like I treat academia - useful and interesting.

 

[midwestyankee]

This makes sense - insamuch as if you are doing this in a completely relationship-specific way with one person you have years of communication with, sure.

I have to go with M's say so and reactions when I tie off everything on his scrotum, it's true.

I don't think that years of communication experience are quite necessary, but extensive experience with any one person is essential to being able to read them clearly at all times. That said, the experience of learning to read that one person closely must surely be transferable to learning to read another. Not the specific signals, of course, as they would certainly vary, but the experience of learning the signals. Furthermore, we all change and we all react differently to stimuli under different conditions - even the same stimuli. To this extent, it's essential to continue to learn one's partner's signals and their variations.

Learning doesn't stop though some people fail to continue to pay attention to the learning that's happening and so it goes into the memory hole rarely to be usable again.

 

[Netzach]

, the experience of learning to read that one person closely must surely be transferable to learning to read another. Not the specific signals, of course, as they would certainly vary, but the experience of learning the signals. Furthermore, we all change and we all react differently to stimuli under different conditions - even the same stimuli. To this extent, it's essential to continue to learn one's partner's signals and their variations

Oh absolutely. But this is not one of those things that I think comes of hoary wisdom, I think it's one of those things you got it or you don't got it. I've seen people of every age be tone deaf to signals and vice versa.

 

[midwestyankee]

Oh absolutely. But this is not one of those things that I think comes of hoary wisdom, I think it's one of those things you got it or you don't got it. I've seen people of every age be tone deaf to signals and vice versa.

And there are lots of people who don't have a clue what they don't know.