new to this, 35 WF, husband impotent, going crazy!

[Straight-8]

Since when was agreeing with infidelity a symbol of being openminded? That's just stupid. I'm sorry but in my opinion there's no justification for infidelity. If you are married you have made a promise, an oath to be faithful. Unless you and your partner have agreed to open up your marriage then you are breaking thair trust and your vows. There's no justification for that, period.

That is a very high 'moral' position. One that many espouse and, I dare say, damn few live up to.

There is always the urge to preach to others about moral views. I'm trying to be practical. Like SEVERUS MAX says it's easy to say do without as long as it isn't you who is doing without. Unlike him I think her H's behaviour is malicious...at least 'wilful blindness'.

It may be a matter of interpretation. I read her as saying she's 'tried everything' (although she doesn't use that phrase) and now she has to make the tough choice. I tried to cover the 'other stuff' in my first three points. I still think she's in a no win on her options - it's which moral cesspool does she want to end up in? - or does she want to ignore conventional morality and respond to her needs?

".....Thus, our bawdiness,
Unpurged by epitaph, indulged at last,
Is equally converted into palms,
Squiggling like saxaphones. And palm for palm,
Madame, we are where we began. Allow,
Therefore, that in the planetary scene
Your disaffected flagellants, well-stuffed,
Smacking their muzzy bellies in parade,
Proud of such novelties of the sublime,
Such tink and tank and tunk-atunk-tunk,
May, merely may, madame, whip from themselves
A jovial hullabaloo among the spheres.
This will make widows wince. But fictive things
Wink as they will. Wink most when widows wince."

 

[TBKahuna123]

That is a very high 'moral' position. One that many espouse and, I dare say, damn few live up to.

I can't disagree with you on this one, damn few people do live up to it. I believe this is a major problem in our society, the lack of commitment and responsibility to each other, and I don't just mean marriage specifically.

There is always the urge to preach to others about moral views. I'm trying to be practical. Like SEVERUS MAX says it's easy to say do without as long as it isn't you who is doing without. Unlike him I think her H's behaviour is malicious...at least 'wilful blindness'.

I'm not entirely sure whether I would classify this as a moral view or not. To me, saying that monogamy is the only correct way would be a moral view, saying you shouldn't lie and cheat on your mate is more of a view on common deceny. I'm not telling her that divorce is wrong and she should stick it out and deal, I'm saying that infidelity isn't an approach she should take. If it reaches that point, I would suggest being honest with herself and her husband and calling it quits, rather than lying to him and herself and sneaking around having an affair. If there's no way to resolve the situation, then the relationship is already over, whether you've taken the step of formal divorce or not.

I still think she's in a no win on her options - it's which moral cesspool does she want to end up in? - or does she want to ignore conventional morality and respond to her needs?

Again, this isn't a question of conventional morality, it's a question of honesty. She doesn't have to end up in any moral cesspool. Saying you can't live like this and that there is no way to work it out is the HONEST approach. I don't think anyone could fault her for that, I know I certainly wouldn't.

Now just as an aside, let me clarify a bit further. If her husband were to say that he understood her needs and that she should take another lover, to me that's not infidelity. He knows, he approves, there's no deception there, which is what I detest about infidelity. That approach wouldn't work for me, but that's my moral views, and it might work fine for someone else. Do you see the distinction I'm trying to make?

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I personally think that both are moral views, but the latter one (no lying and cheating) makes more sense. It's a philosophical morality, rather than a Pharisaical morality that seeks to impose a personal preference on another as a universal absolute.

And you have a point that I had considered, but needed a reminder of: if it gets to the point that he is being so malicious, the marriage IS dead. Giving him his walking papers puts her in a morally less dubious and questionable position than cheating. Fewer people would condemn her for leaving than for cheating, that is. And there is simply no point in sticking around a malicious mate, even to cheat on him.

Once again, I respect you for holding to your principles, while NOT imposing your personal choices on others. That's a clear mark of an open-minded, but still ethical man. A philosopher, in other words.

I am a swinger, for instance, but I wouldn't say that monogamy is wrong and that all should become swingers like me. That would be just as absurd as the position that you DIDN'T take. So I applaud you for not taking it.

And I strongly believe that divorce is still avoidable in this case, as of yet. He doesn't seem malicious, just sullen and probably distant due to personal issues (I am guessing, from his defensive attitude, that his impotence bugs him more than he lets on). I think that time, counseling, medication, affection (but with some respect for his need for space at times), and creativity can together still save her marriage, which is CLEARLY what she wants. I don't think that she wants out of her marriage at all, from her tone. I just think that she is desperate for an actual solution (which makes this forum VERY appropriate to her query).

 

[TBKahuna123]

Thanks SEVERUSMAX, I appreciate the compliments.

I also don't think those of us who haven't experienced ED can really relate to what he might be feeling. I know that I had a few issues a couple years ago which lasted about a week due to a change in medication. Now, the impact that had on me was profound, and it was a very short duration. I can only imagine what it would have done to my self-esteem over the course of years. I also know it was a self fulfilling prophesy. Realistically my issue only lasted a couple days, but once I wasn't having issue, I found myself wondering if I were suddenly going to, then I would. Luckily i was able to snap out of it quickly.

Again that's not meant to justify him ignoring her needs, but it might put it into perspective. Unfair to her yes, malicious, probably not.

 

[kittydoll]

reply from the kittydoll to everyone listening

Firstly, I have read with great thanks and interest all of your replies and suggestions, I am so impressed and thankful for the discussions and excellent points raised. I actually walked around today for the first time in a long time with a big smile on my face, not because anything has been resolved, but I guess just the relief of having thrown my problem out there and having some awesome people give it some careful thought. Wow, soooo cool...

I agree with the stances on infidelity and I would tend to agree with the standpoints that it would be better to separate before even considering being with someone else... that has always been my belief system that I have stood firmly by for many years...the sad or ironic thing is...that until you are in a situation where you like most of the marriage most of the time but are completely disatisifed in a very important area (ie. sex) you really can't know the dilemna you are faced with.... Faerie made a good point that she had the problem of not even wanting her ex. to touch her anymore...I think and fear I am close to that point...after over a year of outright and sometimes pretty brutal rejection...I am not sure I would even want a sexual overture from him....in the first few months of rejection I still wanted him and dreamt at night about him...but now all of my dreams are about faceless men and ex-lovers.... I appreciate the suggestions about stopping the seduction advances and concentrating on other affections, I will take that to practice and let you know how it goes, but I think there is definitely a bigger issue for me to deal with which is....if there is a solution do I even want it anymore? I guess I won't know until this thing goes a bit further and I try some of the suggestions given. The health issue-a very good one-yes, I think there may be some early mental health signs...possible early dementia, he has weird anger fits and bad short term memory...he flat out refuses marital counseling or meds or to seek medical advice even if I threaten divorce as the final end. In fits of anger he tells me he doesn't care if I take a lover, but I know if I did and he found out that the result would be fatal, and I don't even know if that is something I would ever really consider anyhow....please keep the advise coming...
much love and appreciation....

 

[LadyJeanne]

Firstly, I have read with great thanks and interest all of your replies and suggestions, I am so impressed and thankful for the discussions and excellent points raised. I actually walked around today for the first time in a long time with a big smile on my face, not because anything has been resolved, but I guess just the relief of having thrown my problem out there and having some awesome people give it some careful thought. Wow, soooo cool...

I agree with the stances on infidelity and I would tend to agree with the standpoints that it would be better to separate before even considering being with someone else... that has always been my belief system that I have stood firmly by for many years...the sad or ironic thing is...that until you are in a situation where you like most of the marriage most of the time but are completely disatisifed in a very important area (ie. sex) you really can't know the dilemna you are faced with.... Faerie made a good point that she had the problem of not even wanting her ex. to touch her anymore...I think and fear I am close to that point...after over a year of outright and sometimes pretty brutal rejection...I am not sure I would even want a sexual overture from him....in the first few months of rejection I still wanted him and dreamt at night about him...but now all of my dreams are about faceless men and ex-lovers.... I appreciate the suggestions about stopping the seduction advances and concentrating on other affections, I will take that to practice and let you know how it goes, but I think there is definitely a bigger issue for me to deal with which is....if there is a solution do I even want it anymore? I guess I won't know until this thing goes a bit further and I try some of the suggestions given. The health issue-a very good one-yes, I think there may be some early mental health signs...possible early dementia, he has weird anger fits and bad short term memory...he flat out refuses marital counseling or meds or to seek medical advice even if I threaten divorce as the final end. In fits of anger he tells me he doesn't care if I take a lover, but I know if I did and he found out that the result would be fatal, and I don't even know if that is something I would ever really consider anyhow....please keep the advise coming...
much love and appreciation....

I'm out of my element here, so I'll give you some

and a suggestion that you consider going to counseling on your own even if your husband won't go. You're under a lot of stress, and it would probably help to talk through your thoughts and questions about this relationship.

 

[TBKahuna123]

I'm out of my element here, so I'll give you some

and a suggestion that you consider going to counseling on your own even if your husband won't go. You're under a lot of stress, and it would probably help to talk through your thoughts and questions about this relationship.

I was gonna suggest the same thing, I think perhaps your best first step would be to seek some counselling on your own. You've identified a few very important questions that you need to answer about yourself, and I think that is wonderful. That's a big step in that you have identified the decisions you must make before pushing him any further.

The health issue-a very good one-yes, I think there may be some early mental health signs...possible early dementia, he has weird anger fits and bad short term memory...he flat out refuses marital counseling or meds or to seek medical advice even if I threaten divorce as the final end. In fits of anger he tells me he doesn't care if I take a lover, but I know if I did and he found out that the result would be fatal, and I don't even know if that is something I would ever really consider anyhow

This bit concerns me. It could be simply that he is fighting depression over his sexual issues, or it could be more serious. This is another good reason to talk to a therapist, because they might be able to identify some of those behavioral signs and suggest a course of action. As good as we are at offering helpful advise, none of us here are professionals. I'd definitely suggest finding someone to talk too who specializes in this kind of thing.

In the mean time though, I'm you keep asking and we'll keep trying to help. Glad to hear that you are feeling a bit better, I hope it continues to improve.

 

[mike8375]

hope you have a restfull sunday

well love the thread seems lots have there idea's
i was not sure how to answer them
think i will just keep mine to myself
makes me seem ignorant sometimes
but then again i am 47 and div with 5 kids



enjoy life we may not wake up tomorow
be happy and enjoy yr free time still working lol


Michael

 

[vanelane]

Since when was agreeing with infidelity a symbol of being openminded? That's just stupid. I'm sorry but in my opinion there's no justification for infidelity. If you are married you have made a promise, an oath to be faithful. Unless you and your partner have agreed to open up your marriage then you are breaking thair trust and your vows. There's no justification for that, period.

That is a very high 'moral' position. One that many espouse and, I dare say, damn few live up to.

I have to disagree; I don't believe damn few people live up to being faithful in marriage. I do think many times when we do not live up to some standard we believe we should, we tell ourselves it's no big deal because 'everybody does it.'