New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani

[Lazaran]

Ironically, one interesting factor is immigration: fewer immigrants working on construction sites in the USA has raised costs of building housing.

And then there is the failure to address climate change which is destroying houses, limiting construction windows, and raising the price of building materials.

MAGAts are wrong on EVERY issue.



We. Told. Them. So.

 

[briancamdudetenger2018]

Yup, under the Pig, ICE has become a masked domestic terrorist group. I'm glad another politician is stating that out loud.

the trumpers probley had meltdowns about what there arch enemy zohan said on the view about ice

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
This is just silly. A growing economy involves a growing population (usually). More of everything is produced, cars, chickens, computers, beer, lumber, DVDs etc. etc. etc. You wouldn't say an increasing population, whether by citizens having more babies or by immigrants coming in, would mean there would be a shortage of cars or chickens, would you?

The economics of housing is a confused mess, with red tape, nimbyism, finance and other factors.

Ironically, one interesting factor is immigration: fewer immigrants working on construction sites in the USA has raised costs of building housing.

A growing population benefits the employer - investor class. It depresses wages and inflates prices, especially the price of a place to live. This has been happening in the United States since the inflationary recession of 1974. Since then wages and middle class salaries have stagnated or declined. The rich keep getting richer. This is not computer science. It is as simple as the law of supply and demand.

Changes in wages and prices, including the price of houses, happen for many reasons. If everything else were held constant, and the population were to grow, whether by immigration or natural increase, then, yes, the prices of goods would increase because of increased demand and fixed supply.

But you know that everything else would never be held constant. Populations have increased markedly over the last fifty years, one hundred years, two hundred years. But somehow the number of automobiles, houses, insurance policies, french fries etc. etc. have all increased as well.

A growing economy (usually) goes with a growing population, that's why the Chinese, among others, are worried about declining birth rates.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Changes in wages and prices, including the price of houses, happen for many reasons. If everything else were held constant, and the population were to grow, whether by immigration or natural increase, then, yes, the prices of goods would increase because of increased demand and fixed supply.

But you know that everything else would never be held constant. Populations have increased markedly over the last fifty years, one hundred years, two hundred years. But somehow the number of automobiles, houses, insurance policies, french fries etc. etc. have all increased as well.

A growing economy (usually) goes with a growing population, that's why the Chinese, among others, are worried about declining birth rates.

AI Overview



The Black Death (1347–1351) ravaged Europe, killing 25–50 million people, but
this drastic population reduction significantly improved the standard of living for survivors. Labor shortages forced higher wages, lower rents, improved diets, and weakened feudalism, granting peasants greater economic freedom and bargaining power, though some of these gains were later challenged.
Impact on Standard of Living

• Higher Wages and Wealth: Because workers were scarce, employers (landlords and merchants) had to offer higher wages, better working conditions, and more food, raising the purchasing power of the lower class.
• Better Diets and Health: With more wealth, people were able to eat more meat, bread, and high-quality food, which improved overall, long-term health.
• Lower Rents and Abundant Resources: The death of roughly half the population meant that housing and land became cheaper and more available.
• End of Feudalism/Serfdom: The crisis weakened the feudal system, allowing peasants to move for better opportunities, ending or severely reducing serfdom in many parts of Western Europe.
• Technological Innovation: Due to the high cost of labor, there was a push for technological innovation, such as advancements in agriculture and the improvement of watermills and spinning wheels.

Challenges to Improvements

• Resistance from Elites: Rulers and landlords tried to limit these gains through legislation, such as the Statute of Laborers (1351), which attempted to fix wages at pre-plague levels, though this often failed, say Reddit users and the Council for Economic Education.
• Long-Term Reversal: While the immediate, post-plague years saw significant improvements, some historians argue that elites eventually managed to reclaim much of the lost wealth and power in the following centuries.

• How the Black Death made life better | Department of History
  Jun 18, 2021 — Scholars describe the changes that followed the Black Death as: * Wages rose * Inequality decreased * Feudalism ended However, som...
  
  WashU
  
  
  
  
• The Medieval Black Death Made You Healthier—If You Survived
  May 7, 2014 — The Black Death was a widespread outbreak of plague that struck between 1347 and 1351, killing tens of millions of people. The dis...
  
  

  Changes in wages and prices, including the price of houses, happen for many reasons. If everything else were held constant, and the population were to grow, whether by immigration or natural increase, then, yes, the prices of goods would increase because of increased demand and fixed supply.
  
  But you know that everything else would never be held constant. Populations have increased markedly over the last fifty years, one hundred years, two hundred years. But somehow the number of automobiles, houses, insurance policies, french fries etc. etc. have all increased as well.
  
  A growing economy (usually) goes with a growing population, that's why the Chinese, among others, are worried about declining birth rates.

  
  The Black Death (1347–1351) ravaged Europe, killing tens of millions and causing a severe labor shortage, which paradoxically led to a higher standard of living for survivors. Increased demand for labor forced higher wages, while falling population reduced demand for land, lowering rents and increasing food accessibility.
  Key impacts on the standard of living:
  • Economic Shift: Survivors, particularly peasants and laborers, enjoyed greater purchasing power as wages increased and food prices fell.
  • Improved Diet and Health: With fewer people sharing resources, survivors had access to more land and diverse, nutrient-rich diets (e.g., more meat and high-quality bread).
  • Increased Social Mobility: The desperate need for labor allowed peasants to negotiate better terms, breaking down the traditional manorial system of feudalism.
  • Wealth Distribution: Wealth became more evenly distributed as the reduced population inherited assets and land.
  • Long-term Effects: Although the initial period was highly disruptive, the long-term impact in many areas, especially in Western Europe, was a rise in per capita income and living conditions.
  However, these improvements were often accompanied by social upheaval as authorities tried to enforce pre-plague wage levels through legislation.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  • 
    
    Reddit
    
    
    
  • The Medieval Black Death Made You Healthier—If You Survived | The Transmission
    Jun 6, 2023 — The Black Death improved public health in a number of ways: * **Dropped prices** Fewer people meant a decreased demand for foods, ...
    
    University of Nebraska Medical Center
    
    
    
    
  • The Medieval Black Death Made You Healthier—If You Survived
    May 7, 2014 — The Black Death was a widespread outbreak of plague that struck between 1347 and 1351, killing tens of millions of people. The dis...
    
    Time Magazine
    
    
  Show all
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

 

[Wilson23]

AI Overview



The Black Death (1347–1351) ravaged Europe, killing 25–50 million people, but
this drastic population reduction significantly improved the standard of living for survivors. Labor shortages forced higher wages, lower rents, improved diets, and weakened feudalism, granting peasants greater economic freedom and bargaining power, though some of these gains were later challenged.
Impact on Standard of Living

• Higher Wages and Wealth: Because workers were scarce, employers (landlords and merchants) had to offer higher wages, better working conditions, and more food, raising the purchasing power of the lower class.
• Better Diets and Health: With more wealth, people were able to eat more meat, bread, and high-quality food, which improved overall, long-term health.
• Lower Rents and Abundant Resources: The death of roughly half the population meant that housing and land became cheaper and more available.
• End of Feudalism/Serfdom: The crisis weakened the feudal system, allowing peasants to move for better opportunities, ending or severely reducing serfdom in many parts of Western Europe.
• Technological Innovation: Due to the high cost of labor, there was a push for technological innovation, such as advancements in agriculture and the improvement of watermills and spinning wheels.

Challenges to Improvements

• Resistance from Elites: Rulers and landlords tried to limit these gains through legislation, such as the Statute of Laborers (1351), which attempted to fix wages at pre-plague levels, though this often failed, say Reddit users and the Council for Economic Education.
• Long-Term Reversal: While the immediate, post-plague years saw significant improvements, some historians argue that elites eventually managed to reclaim much of the lost wealth and power in the following centuries.

• How the Black Death made life better | Department of History
  Jun 18, 2021 — Scholars describe the changes that followed the Black Death as: * Wages rose * Inequality decreased * Feudalism ended However, som...
  
  WashU
  
  
  
  
• The Medieval Black Death Made You Healthier—If You Survived
  May 7, 2014 — The Black Death was a widespread outbreak of plague that struck between 1347 and 1351, killing tens of millions of people. The dis...
  
  
  
  The Black Death (1347–1351) ravaged Europe, killing tens of millions and causing a severe labor shortage, which paradoxically led to a higher standard of living for survivors. Increased demand for labor forced higher wages, while falling population reduced demand for land, lowering rents and increasing food accessibility.
  Key impacts on the standard of living:
  • Economic Shift: Survivors, particularly peasants and laborers, enjoyed greater purchasing power as wages increased and food prices fell.
  • Improved Diet and Health: With fewer people sharing resources, survivors had access to more land and diverse, nutrient-rich diets (e.g., more meat and high-quality bread).
  • Increased Social Mobility: The desperate need for labor allowed peasants to negotiate better terms, breaking down the traditional manorial system of feudalism.
  • Wealth Distribution: Wealth became more evenly distributed as the reduced population inherited assets and land.
  • Long-term Effects: Although the initial period was highly disruptive, the long-term impact in many areas, especially in Western Europe, was a rise in per capita income and living conditions.
  However, these improvements were often accompanied by social upheaval as authorities tried to enforce pre-plague wage levels through legislation.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  • 
    
    Reddit
    
    
    
  • The Medieval Black Death Made You Healthier—If You Survived | The Transmission
    Jun 6, 2023 — The Black Death improved public health in a number of ways: * **Dropped prices** Fewer people meant a decreased demand for foods, ...
    View attachment 2592676
    University of Nebraska Medical Center
    
    View attachment 2592674
    
    
  • The Medieval Black Death Made You Healthier—If You Survived
    May 7, 2014 — The Black Death was a widespread outbreak of plague that struck between 1347 and 1351, killing tens of millions of people. The dis...
    View attachment 2592673
    Time Magazine
    
    View attachment 2592675
  Show all
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

OK, OK -- we need a genetically engineered Superflu like in "The Stand."

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
Changes in wages and prices, including the price of houses, happen for many reasons. If everything else were held constant, and the population were to grow, whether by immigration or natural increase, then, yes, the prices of goods would increase because of increased demand and fixed supply.

But you know that everything else would never be held constant. Populations have increased markedly over the last fifty years, one hundred years, two hundred years. But somehow the number of automobiles, houses, insurance policies, french fries etc. etc. have all increased as well.

A growing economy (usually) goes with a growing population, that's why the Chinese, among others, are worried about declining birth rates.

AI Overview

The Black Death (1347–1351) ravaged Europe, killing 25–50 million people, but
this drastic population reduction significantly improved the standard of living for survivors. Labor shortages forced higher wages, lower rents, improved diets, and weakened feudalism,

The Black Death? Seriously? You asked some AI bot about circumstances in which a decline in population was somehow a "good thing" and the only example you could find was a horrific pandemic? And this is somehow supposed to demonstrate that immigration to the USA (or other nations) is bad for the country?

‘When there aren’t enough hats to go around the problem isn’t solved by lopping off some heads.’ — G.K. Chesterton

 

[JohnEngelman]

The Black Death? Seriously? You asked some AI bot about circumstances in which a decline in population was somehow a "good thing" and the only example you could find was a horrific pandemic? And this is somehow supposed to demonstrate that immigration to the USA (or other nations) is bad for the country?

‘When there aren’t enough hats to go around the problem isn’t solved by lopping off some heads.’ — G.K. Chesterton

By killing nearly half the population of Europe the Black Death improved the standard of living for the survivors for the reasons I have already explained.

 

[Lazaran]

By killing nearly half the population of Europe the Black Death improved the standard of living for the survivors for the reasons I have already explained.

Sounds…optimal…

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
The Black Death? Seriously? You asked some AI bot about circumstances in which a decline in population was somehow a "good thing" and the only example you could find was a horrific pandemic? And this is somehow supposed to demonstrate that immigration to the USA (or other nations) is bad for the country?

‘When there aren’t enough hats to go around the problem isn’t solved by lopping off some heads.’ — G.K. Chesterton

By killing nearly half the population of Europe the Black Death improved the standard of living for the survivors for the reasons I have already explained.

So what? You originally said you thought immigration was bad (ask the 19th century Chinese railroad workers and the Irish coal miners in your country about how they were a "drain" on the economy!) but the only thing you could come up with to support this notion was the Black Death, a disaster that, yes, did increase the amount of housing available per person.

 

[JohnEngelman]

So what? You originally said you thought immigration was bad (ask the 19th century Chinese railroad workers and the Irish coal miners in your country about how they were a "drain" on the economy!) but the only thing you could come up with to support this notion was the Black Death, a disaster that, yes, did increase the amount of housing available per person.

More people mean that there is less of everything good to go around. Your only response to that simple truth is a lot of negative emotion.

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
So what? You originally said you thought immigration was bad (ask the 19th century Chinese railroad workers and the Irish coal miners in your country about how they were a "drain" on the economy!) but the only thing you could come up with to support this notion was the Black Death, a disaster that, yes, did increase the amount of housing available per person.

More people mean that there is less of everything good to go around. Your only response to that simple truth is a lot of negative emotion.

I gave you the example of a growing economy, where the population increases and the amount of "everything good" also increases. Look at your own country. The population has increased greatly since, say, the middle of the last century. People gripe about the price of eggs, but you have to agree that, in general, there is a lot more "everything good" in your country than there was back then.

Your only response to that was the Black Death, increasing the supply of houses (per person) by killing people off!

 

[JohnEngelman]

I gave you the example of a growing economy, where the population increases and the amount of "everything good" also increases. Look at your own country. The population has increased greatly since, say, the middle of the last century. People gripe about the price of eggs, but you have to agree that, in general, there is a lot more "everything good" in your country than there was back then.

Your only response to that was the Black Death, increasing the supply of houses (per person) by killing people off!

More people from a high birth rate, a high immigration rate, or both may mean more producers. It always means more consumers Thus population growth has a depressing effect on average standard of living.

Even when the population and the standard of living are rising, as they were in the United States from the end of the Second World war to the inflationary recession of 1974, the standard of living would be rising faster if the population was not rising, and faster still if it was declining.

I like immigrants. I also recognize that by competing for jobs they contribute to stagnant wages. By competing for places to live they contribute to rising housing costs.

The high rate of immigration is one of the three major reasons for the growing income gap. The second is Republican sponsored economic changes. The third is the fact that computer technology increases the relationship between intelligence and income.

 

[Wilson23]

Your only response to that was the Black Death, increasing the supply of houses (per person) by killing people off!

What, that wouldn't work in NYC? All we need is something just a little bit stronger than covid!

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
I gave you the example of a growing economy, where the population increases and the amount of "everything good" also increases. Look at your own country. The population has increased greatly since, say, the middle of the last century. People gripe about the price of eggs, but you have to agree that, in general, there is a lot more "everything good" in your country than there was back then.

Your only response to that was the Black Death, increasing the supply of houses (per person) by killing people off!

More people from a high birth rate, a high immigration rate, or both may mean more producers. It always means more consumers Thus population growth has a depressing effect on average standard of living.

This makes no sense. It's tantamount to saying countries with higher standards of living are necessarily those with lower populations, which isn't the case. China has a higher standard of living than North Korea, even though North Korea has a lower population. China in 2000 had a higher standard of living than China did in 1950, even though the population of China was smaller in 1950.

 

[JohnEngelman]

This makes no sense. It's tantamount to saying countries with higher standards of living are necessarily those with lower populations, which isn't the case. China has a higher standard of living than North Korea, even though North Korea has a lower population. China in 2000 had a higher standard of living than China did in 1950, even though the population of China was smaller in 1950.

A higher population, and especially a growing population that is already growing, is a factor in lower standard of living for wage earners. It is not the only factor.

 

[MajorRewrite]

More people mean that there is less of everything good to go around. Your only response to that simple truth is a lot of negative emotion.

The population of the US has grown by 340 million since the nation’s founding, and the standard of living has improved steadily throughout.

I think a slowly shrinking population is fine, but pretending the economy is a fixed-size pie to be divided by the population is demonstrably wrong. The economic “pie” grows.

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
This makes no sense. It's tantamount to saying countries with higher standards of living are necessarily those with lower populations, which isn't the case. China has a higher standard of living than North Korea, even though North Korea has a lower population. China in 2000 had a higher standard of living than China did in 1950, even though the population of China was smaller in 1950.

A higher population, and especially a growing population that is already growing, is a factor in lower standard of living for wage earners. It is not the only factor.

It is possible for the population to be growing and the standard of living also to be growing (China 1950 to 2000, for example). It is possible for the population to be growing and the standard of living to be shrinking (I'm sure you can find an example).

You claimed, way long ago earlier in this silly discussion, that somehow immigration was bad and reduced the standard of living. That simply doesn't follow. Sure, in a case like Lebanon, flooded with refugees from the war in Syria, things can go bad, but a growing country, like the USA in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries, benefits from immigration.

 

[JohnEngelman]

The population of the US has grown by 340 million since the nation’s founding, and the standard of living has improved steadily throughout.

I think a slowly shrinking population is fine, but pretending the economy is a fixed-size pie to be divided by the population is demonstrably wrong. The economic “pie” grows.

The U.S. economy never really recovered from the inflationary recession of 1974. Since then there have been greater rewards at the top, but there have been fewer of those rewards. The U.S. economy has been less forgiving of bad decisions, bad luck, and failure.

 

[JohnEngelman]

It is possible for the population to be growing and the standard of living also to be growing (China 1950 to 2000, for example). It is possible for the population to be growing and the standard of living to be shrinking (I'm sure you can find an example).

You claimed, way long ago earlier in this silly discussion, that somehow immigration was bad and reduced the standard of living. That simply doesn't follow. Sure, in a case like Lebanon, flooded with refugees from the war in Syria, things can go bad, but a growing country, like the USA in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries, benefits from immigration.

I like immigrants. Nevertheless, the high rate of immigration that followed the Immigration reform act of 1975 has been one of the three reasons for the growing income gap.

 

[YDB95]

The Black Death? Seriously? You asked some AI bot about circumstances in which a decline in population was somehow a "good thing" and the only example you could find was a horrific pandemic?

It pains me to have to agree with our resident intellectual racist on anything, but the consensus among historians of the era is that, yes, the Black Death is what kicked off the chain of events that led to the Renaissance, the industrial revolution, the emergence of a middle class...basically everything that eventually made modern society what it was and is. Because it took something that drastic to make the powers that were recognize the real value of their fellow human beings when there were only so many of them left. Which doesn't mean we want something that drastic to happen again, and it certainly doesn't mean we should use it as an excuse to curtail immigration. But it did teach an invaluable lesson about the hazards of treating our fellow human beings as strictly commodities.

 

[Wilson23]

I like immigrants. Nevertheless, the high rate of immigration that followed the Immigration reform act of 1975 has been one of the three reasons for the growing income gap.

What are the other two?

 

[JohnEngelman]

What are the other two?

Republican tax cuts for the rich, and the fact that computer technology increases the relationship between IQ and income.

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
It is possible for the population to be growing and the standard of living also to be growing (China 1950 to 2000, for example). It is possible for the population to be growing and the standard of living to be shrinking (I'm sure you can find an example).

You claimed, way long ago earlier in this silly discussion, that somehow immigration was bad and reduced the standard of living. That simply doesn't follow. Sure, in a case like Lebanon, flooded with refugees from the war in Syria, things can go bad, but a growing country, like the USA in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries, benefits from immigration.

I like immigrants. Nevertheless, the high rate of immigration that followed the Immigration reform act of 1975 has been one of the three reasons for the growing income gap.

You haven't presented any evidence for this. The reasons usually cited for income inequality in the USA are: racial and gender discrimination, tax policy favouring the wealthy, technological change, weakened labour unions, and globalization.

 

[Hel_Books]

Hel_Books said:
The Black Death? Seriously? You asked some AI bot about circumstances in which a decline in population was somehow a "good thing" and the only example you could find was a horrific pandemic?

It pains me to have to agree with our resident intellectual racist on anything, but the consensus among historians of the era is that, yes, the Black Death is what kicked off the chain of events that led to the Renaissance, the industrial revolution, the emergence of a middle class...basically everything that eventually made modern society what it was and is. Because it took something that drastic to make the powers that were recognize the real value of their fellow human beings when there were only so many of them left. Which doesn't mean we want something that drastic to happen again, and it certainly doesn't mean we should use it as an excuse to curtail immigration. But it did teach an invaluable lesson about the hazards of treating our fellow human beings as strictly commodities.

Oh, I've read many times about those changes resulting from the "reduction" of the work force due to the Black Death, and I don't dispute them. Hardly relevant to the issue of immigration, though. I was wondering if he'd also mention the great boost to the USA economy that World War II provided. Lots of dead people providing lots of prosperity, eh?

 

[JohnEngelman]

You haven't presented any evidence for this. The reasons usually cited for income inequality in the USA are: racial and gender discrimination, tax policy favouring the wealthy, technological change, weakened labour unions, and globalization.

My evidence is the growing income gap, and the simple facts that by competing for jobs immigigrants enable employers to reduce wages. By competing for places to live immigrants enable landlords to raise rents.


It is not computer science. It is as simple as the law of supply and demand.

Everything you mention contributes too, along with the fact that computer technology increases the relationship between intelligence and income.