observation/question for BDSM folks...

[Ebonyfire]

Originally posted by buckminsterfutt

"Like I understand it is somehow inappropriate for a dom to wear some clothing items - certain kind of collar or whatever. And they gotta carry some specific sorta of bag for their "tools" and stuff. "


I am a dominant and I wear what I want. If I want to wear a collar, I will. If I want to wear a business suit, I do that too. I am in charge. And as for carrying around "tools" and "stuff" I have to say you must be joking.

Within the confines of a consensual relationship involving two (or more) individuals, it is really between participants what is right for themselves. I am not a role player. I do not play the role of a dominating woman. I am a dominant, and I have males who serve Me. End of story.

Ebony

 

[~*sunkyssed_kym*~]

Hiya Buck;
I'd like to add to your response that in a "nilla" relationship there aren't any rules; My parents have been married for over 54 years and they are a "niila" couple (as far as I can tell); they too have a set of rules they go by. Even tho it may not be as defined as what WE go by, They still have a set of standards they follow.
How may I ask if two people are together can there be no rules to live by???
I understand we ALL have our own egos to placate, but, we also have responsibility to those we love and hold in the highest respect to as well. If there are no rules,"nilla" or otherwise; there is not relationship. I don't understand your thoughts that two people can be in ANY kind of relationship without ANY rules??!!! I've had my share of relationships;both nilla and now Dom/sub (thank heavens); and there have ALWAYS been guidelines/rules to them!! Wake up MAN! It has nothing to do with the type of relationship you are in, but that the fact that you are a responsible partner that counts!
I'm not dissing you Buck, only stating my opinion. OK?

Blessings to all!

 

[seXieleXie]

[grumpy]
you're awfully patronizing for someone we don't know
[/grumpy]


carry on.

 

[monster666]

::sigh::

This is why I am looking for a semi-nude RisaSkye poster for my bedroom. She's just the bestest at this stuff.

Okay, kids, simmer down. Don't make me stop this car and come back there!

Risia, BDSM Forum Moderator.

~~~~
About your observations, buck:

I think you misunderstood some of the responses to your initial post. While there isn't one fixed set of rules, every BDSM relationship *DOES* follow rules. The specificity of those rules varies according to the relationship, and, in general, the newer the relationship and/or the closer one plays to the edge--the greater the risk that someone could be really damaged by a sexual or emotional adventure gone wrong, in other words--the more specific those rules tend to be.

So, I don't think anyone has really argued that there aren't rules. Just that there aren't universally uniform rules governing all BDSM relationships, with the exception of the Safe,Sane, Consensual ethos.

Why have rules? Well, first, for safety. Given that many of the things we do as a matter of course could be construed as abusive if they go beyond what the sub/bottom desires, or if they are done without full consent, it's necessary to set down ground rules on the order of limits. Further, in a society that views us as abusers and worse, it's necessary to protect the relationship from outside interference from parties who judge the relationship out of their own ignorance. Thus, people have pretty clear rules about public play, confidentiality, etc. Also, in a world of AIDS, many (or most) people have safe-sex rules about fluid-bonding, partner-sharing, and latex boundaries.

Those are the big pictures.

In the smaller view, BDSM is too complicated to isolate a single parameter of rules. For example: Bondage/discipline relationships have particular needs, some of which edge into the kinds of things you mention as military discipline. <--Hey, there's that word again; I wonder why they might look similar?

Each relationship of Dominance and submission, or between a Top and a bottom, may also include elements of discipline, of bondage, and/or of sadism and masochism. Dominants may set rules or define rituals that allow submissives to display their devotion and service--Ebony's morning service ritual, for example.

Also, discipline requires ritual, does it not? How else does one show that they are properly disciplined?

Further, if one is going to be tied up and/or allow and invite another person to strike them, burn them, or do other things that are potentially dangerous, established rules work to everyone's advantage. By establishing safewords/signals, the players set boundaries for everyone's protection--for the sub/bottom, protection from real damage; for the Dominant/Top, protection from self-doubt about how far to go, as well as protection against outsider claims of abuse. (Not that it always works when viewed by outsiders)

And, the clothing things that you mention? Well, it's all part of the mating dance. In public, at clubs, there's a greater need for relative anonymity, particularly in repressive areas. One cannot freely walk around with a singletail in hand, lashing out at passersby, can they--even at a BDSM event or play party. And, this kinda love has a wide, wide variety of different needs under its umbrella. If you have very specific desires, like you seek a bisexual male loving Dominant, you might look for specific things, like a teddy bear in the middle of a person's vest or jacket. If you seek a Domme, you might look for a woman in a leather corset and high heels. Does this always work? No, particularly as the community changes and expands. But, in many cases, the codes of dress (largely derived from the Leather crowd and gay community) help potential partners to identify each other's desires and thin the crowd down to those whose desires are most likely to mesh with their own.

Understanding better yet?
Oh, and welcome to the forum.

Risia, BDSM forum participant

 

[MzChrista]

Originally posted by buckminsterfutt

"Like I understand it is somehow inappropriate for a dom to wear some clothing items - certain kind of collar or whatever. And they gotta carry some specific sorta of bag for their "tools" and stuff. "


I am a dominant and I wear what I want. If I want to wear a collar, I will. If I want to wear a business suit, I do that too. I am in charge. And as for carrying around "tools" and "stuff" I have to say you must be joking.

Within the confines of a consensual relationship involving two (or more) individuals, it is really between participants what is right for themselves. I am not a role player. I do not play the role of a dominating woman. I am a dominant, and I have males who serve Me. End of story.

Ebony

You kick ass.

 

[Soron]

Rules Shmules

In the relationship I have with My mo there is only one rule. Respect. The rest is no brainer material. If a Dom does not practice safety then he will fool himself into thinking he can control things he cannot. I know of a 'wannabe' Dom who laid a young submissive across a bed, unbound, and punished her. Had I been there at the time I would have marched his ass outside, strapped him to a fence post and beaten the bejeezes out of him and then insisted the submissive do the same. Call safety a rule or whatever but it is a MUST in BDSM.
I can guarantee that if you put "BDSM info" in your browser at least 90 per cent of the sites brought up will be porn. Certainly porn has it's place if you want it but My thing is the emotional side of D/s. I thrive on that. She gives to Me that control, the power to set rules and guidelines for her to follow. She submits to Me because that is her desire.
It may be that what I have with mo is so special we don't need rules per se. Her focus is on Me and I trust her implicitly. Call them rules if you like. For us it is pure common sense. Respect.
safe sane consensual trust love respect honesty

 

[Skally]

I agree with Risia here, SSC is the only defacto "rule" that people stick to. Anything else should be considered as abusive.

Then it all comes down to likes, dislikes, wants and needs - all of which is evident in 'nilla relationships too.

Usually the Dom(me) and Sub will agree on their limits before hand and the relationship will develop from there.

The depth and complexity *does* come down to personal taste and the actual relationship. It's totally possible and acceptable for one person to have a couple of relationships where the boundaries will be different.

Interpretation has a lot to do with it too - Eg, the word "Rules" conjours up images of restrictions and "No No's" whereas the word "Boundaries" suggests hard limits and everything within those boundaries is permissable.

Have a look at the Sticky at the top of the board, and also the Links thread that Wizard posted. There's some really useful information in there

 

[buckminsterfutt]

you may find Lisa is very interesting

You guys are a real articulate bunch and as much as someone who is not a member of your culture I think I do understand how and why you must manage your relationships the way you do. It makes perfect sense. Very rational. Very logical. I'm a very logical person. Probably too logical - I'm an boring. unimagitive geek engineer so all this fits within my own interal operating parameters. Very comfortable with it. And I also agree the vanilla relationships have similar operating parameters as you have pointed out. Maybe not as formal but they are there none the less.

I want to tell you more about Lisa because I think you'll find this very interesting. You'll understand why our relationship is so different from most other relationship. It completely redefined all my previous notions and beliefs about how relationships work. It changed alot more than that. I would say it was a "transcendental experience" for me. And I'm not very metaphysical kinda guy.

Wish I knew the right way to describe Lisa. Thermonuclear energy wearing platform heels comes close. I never met anyone that lives so much in the current moment. Ya know how the 1960's spiritual gurus taught an existential philosophy - The ol' "Be Here Now" kinda thing? Lisa lives her life more that way than anyone. Only its not something she does delibrately. That is simply how she is. She has no regrets about the past, no real major concerns what the future will bring. Her reality is different from ours. It's so much more intense. It must be similar to how psychdelic drugs affect people's color perception - like the saturation and the brightness on the TV were turned way up. She has this sense of wonder, like the world is brand new. There is a reason why she is this way...

So here I was very depressed about the end of my 22 year marriage. Suddenly this vision of a woman, Lisa, drops into my life. Never in my boring little existance had I ever encountered anyone like her. Being with her you sorta shared her perceptions. Its contagious. You seem to enjoy things more when you are with Lisa. There are times when we are together that I honestly wish would last forever. She changed the downward direction of my life. Can you imagine how totally blown away I was by this beautiful woman. (You'll think I'm a major prick, but I sorta wish a video cam was going the first time Lisa and my ex were introduced. Talk about a priceless moment.. )

So with all of this positive stuff, you know there is a down side to it. For example, Lisa is so unpredictable. So I thought I needed her to be little less like that. When I tried to make that happen, it just screwed things up. There were other little things, too. Eventually I quit trying to define ground rules, and trying to control the relationship. When I did try, it just fucked up what we had. And that certainly wasn't what I wanted. So I learned to let the relationship just freewheel. Yeah, there was chaos but that was something I had kinda enjoyed about our relationship. It sorta kept things fresh. And me guessing..

Someone made a rather harsh assessment of my wishing there might be some rules in my relationship with Lisa. Our relationship isn't perfect. I've never experienced one that was. So yes, I wish there were a couple of rules: (1) That Lisa would take her medication every day and (2) that when she would disappear that she would call me so I would not worry so much. That's all I would ask of her.

Not exactly the kind of rules you have in your relationship? Yeah. About six months after we met there began to be a big change in Lisa. She started to experience wild mood swings that didn't match what was happening around her. They got worse. She had disappeared occasionally before but this time she didn't return after two weeks. Her parents got in touch with me about Lisa. I knew she was bipolar but it reached a point where she was delusional. She lost all control and had been hospitalized. Finally she was getting the medical attention she needed. I had tried to get her to see a doctor but she was terrified of the stigma associated with "being crazy". She is still in denial so we have experienced some relapses.

Now if you think that I regret for one second having a relationship with Lisa because of the way she is, you may want to seek medical care. You are out of your frickin' mind! The parts I love most about my relationship with Lisa were because of the way she is. That has not changed at all. Rules!? Yeah, right. Lisa doesn't obey rules very well. I don't know if she even hears that little voice that makes you and I behave ourselves. It's one reason that she is so much fun!

Hey, you like to test limits, right? Lisa will test every limit you thought you had then turn them inside out. This relationship is hard for people to appreciate. There's this insane duality to it. The universe has lots of this. Irony. The whole thing has really been a "transcendental experience" because Lisa and our relationship changed my world view, changed how I expect relationships to work, it challenged me in so many ways.

And ya know, in a very real sense, your relationships are way more vanilla than the one that Lisa and I enjoy. Doesn't that ever get boring for you guys? Or do ya think only a totally insane person would have a relationship without rules? Nope, I don't. Not at all. I'm a perfectly sane guy. Maybe a tad less sane than before I met Lisa. That's a good thing. I'm less vanilla. Now I'm a little more like you guys!! LOL

best regards,

buck futt
____________________________________________
"IT IS MY FIRM BELIEF THAT IT IS A MISTAKE
TO HOLD FIRM BELIEFS." from The Principia Discordia

 

[Ebonyfire]

[grumpy]
you're awfully patronizing for someone we don't know
[/grumpy]


carry on.

Hehehe! <loved it>

Ebony

 

[lilfrk]

Please excuse my stupidness because I just woke up and I'm not really with it yet. I'm confused to say the least.

You're comparing living/having a relationship with a chemically imbalanced woman to BDSM? I don't get it.

gods I'm confused...I'm leaving now

 

[joi]

lilfrk's response
WOW....are you mind-reading or what....once the issue of bipolar disorder arrived in the post, i gasped and choked....D/S,BDSM relationships are NOT based on DISORDER,disruptive brain synapses....rather on TRUST,secure strong neuro-impulses~
As far a rules...without rules reigns chaos!


PS. strongly edited response, He feared i was heading to present a lecture on TDM s and biochemistry~

 

[lilfrk]

See...now I need to go back to bed because your post confused me too. Just not my day I guess.

 

[SpectreT]

Deep Breath, now, Spec, ol' boy...

Please, if you're genuine, please try to understand, I want to be helpful, but....


buck futt, your last post was just a tad......

ASSHOLEY

In a place where we are our words, where we have hours to craft a response, your post boils down to: "Somone thought I might be an asshole for wanting rules, my girlfriend is so far out there I think they're needed just to make sure she's alive, and I'm so much better than you narrow-minded and boring lot for it! neener Neener NEENER!"?

I'm saddened. And I feel a little for this, being a tad bit Manic-Depressive myself. I fight both moods every way, every day, without help or drugs, because I can. I cannot imagine what it would be like if I couldn't control myself in my day-to-day life, so I do feel for you both, but your presentation..... was harsh, and uncalled for.

I know what such a person can bring to others, the depths of feeling and emotion these people have. I'm one of 'em. Am I as extreme as Lisa? No. You may very well be lucky to have such a person in your life.

The $64,000 question is, what does that have to do with BDSM? and how does it relate to your earlier question/observation regarding conventions several of us don't even adhere to?

What do you need or want from us; if we can offer help or advice, that's one thing, but if you're just trying to bait us... I'll own it, I took your bait hook, line & sinker... because I want to believe I can be helpful and useful, even in the face of a hostile situation.

I'm trying here.....

 

[cymbidia]

Stop this.

Stop a moment.
Please.

Risia and i have just been on the phone discussing this thread (well, this was some of what we talked about).

We're of the opinion that buck futt is digging for reaction, trying to stir shit, trying to be a pain in the ass, and/or deliberately attempting to cause trouble.

I'd like to ask you all to simmer down.
Do not post to this thread for 24 hours.
Let your heat around this issue fade a bit.

No one has any power unless we give it to them. Of everyone in the world, we know the truth of that to the bottom of our souls. Do not give buck futt the power to anger you, to make you feel outraged, or defensive here - in this place.

Ignore him.
People who are fishing for reaction get bored easily.
Let him go play passive-aggressive word games elsewhere, okay?


(I'm warning you, R is getting ready to stop the car.
You don't want that, do you?)

cymbidia
BDSM Forum Moderator

 

[AnonymousSlave]

Oh my...



Yes, there are rules!! The difference in the rules in a nilla relationship and in our types of relationships vary greatly! To me, one of the biggest differences is that our rules are spoken! Even written in some. Nilla rules are generally unspoken and extremely vague.

i am by no means an expert, so i speak only for myself here... but i will say that the number one rule is respect. Respect for each other, self respect... = mutual respect. Remember the song.. R E S P E C T... yep baby that's it! Right there in a nutshell! Second rule, trust, with out those... uh there is no relationship!

Having spent many years in a nilla relationship that had trust without an ounce of respect... i can tell you that rule applies to both at least for me. There was trust, no respect.... no foundation!

Safe, sane and consensual... well, to me, that's just common sense.

We're not freaks of nature. In fact, what we practice is very natural. We didn't go to school to learn this, we didn't learn it in the circus, we're not side show freaks. What we do, is admit to ourselves and our mates what we enjoy. What turns us on, what makes us wet, hard, happy and horny! Hmm... acceptance, now there's an odd concept. We don't just fantasize about it, we live it.

The body - We take the pleasures and sensations of the flesh to the highest level.
The mind - We discipline it, we take it to new dimensions, and we expand on it's capabilities to focus on those sensations.
The soul - We take the soul and put it into tender, loving, caring, trusted, respected hands so that we may cast aside some (or all) of our inhibitions and experience great intrapersonal growth.
The heart - Having the foundation firmly in place, the emotions... OMG... unflippin' believeable, indescribable actually. A catharsis to let someone know you so well.

Just my thoughts...

 

[cymbidia]

Again...

I'd like to ask you all to simmer down.

Please don't post to this thread for 24 hours.

Let your heat around this issue fade a bit.

After we're calm, i'm sure we can find a way to discuss this without so much negative energy flowing into it, if we still wish to discuss it.

We're going to get trolls, guys, people who get a lot of pleasure from stirring things up in a (to us) unpleasant way. Let's not sink to the level they do in other places with regard to such disruptions in our conversations, okay?

Thank you.

 

[seXieleXie]

eek i'm breaking the rules



but cym... your previous "calm down children" post made me laugh out loud. if risia stops the car can she at least wait until we're at a rest stop? i think we all need a candy bar or something. but none for mister buck futt or whatever his name is.

 

[cymbidia]

OMG.
lexie, you are so grounded from candy bars for a whole day.
I told you children: no more talking for 24 hours!

 

[zipperdiva]

Protocols, Structure, Rules and what it's all about...

I read the thread here and found it fabulous. The bottom line that rang true was everyone does it differently and everyone is right about that! How refreshing.

Now, my slightly different take on all these notions as they pertain to D/s.

In order to establish a D/s relationship, there must be some structure to the agreed power dynamic between two people. A structure is agreed on (i.e. I will top and you will bottom) and then Protocols (i.e. rules of conduct in particular situations) are agreed upon to uphold the structure.

These rules or protocols are in place because they allow the power dynamic to be felt and lived. Specifically, if the bottom didn't have the appropriate amount of information, they couldn't "serve." Without serving, how will the power dynamic survive? So, some protocol in any relationship that includes D/s is necessary in order for both participants to be fully informed parties in maintaining a D/s structure. There's one reason why we need these rules.

Also, rules and the understanding of them allow us to measure the success of the relationship. It provides a clarity that all successful relationships need.

Now you listed a number of rules and asked why?? A few examples, I am right handed. I frequently speak in public, people of all types wish to engage me in conversation or questions, I need to be able to hand things off to or get a business card from the person serving me. If they aren't on my right, at a 45 degree angle, I won't be able to hand off a card handed to me while maintaining eye contact with the person speaking who gave it to me. To break eye contact would be rude. I won't be rude. So, that protocol has meaning and it's useful. Therefore, we keep it. That's another example of why such rules exist.
Then you have people like me-- service is a fetish for me. I adore it! I have spent the last 30 plus years studying servants, table settings, etc. I find it fascinating and my property knows perfectly well that a way to get Ma'am excited, happy and ready to play is to set a formal table to perfection. Make is SO good that I now it was measured out, inch by inch. LOL... not many people share my fetish. But some do, and those who do will be particularly fond of the social graces which also dictate charming behavior.

Just a bit of food for thought on another great thread.

 

[SubbieHubbie]

Maybe its just me... but given the interplay between people in a D/s relationship - which breaks the bounds of 'nilla relationships, I can't help but feel there are actually more rules IN a 'nilla relationship. Not that such rules - in either relationship - are necessarily entirely stated, but there are many things we would do that would be viewed as wrong (even to the point of ending the relationship) when 'nilla. Oh, and as to the rules as to who is the dom/sub, frankly I'm yet to be convinced thats any more than a natural interplay that enters most relationships to some extent, based on who is more decisive/driven/etc.

As to Buck Futt not having rules in his relationship, something he seems particularly proud of, I haven't heard him give any examples to make me believe this is true. Certainly, I understand that his lady love has bipolar disorder, and, potentially, one of the dissosciative disorders, but that does not mean that he has no rules. If she told him to run through town starkers, would he? I have my doubts. If she told him to go chainsaw his boss to death would he? Again, while for many people that would be tempting, I have my doubts he'd do it. No, the only lack of regulation he appears to describe is her behavior.

OK, now to risk pissing everyone off here. I think Buck Futt is actually serving some kind of submissive need of his own. See, in such a chaotic relationship, you cannot have control at all - his lady love won't yield an inch of control. That being the case, you naturally (to stay in the relationship) take on the role of follower. Indeed, he seems to jubilate in his following of her leadership, of the chaos and joy SHE brings to HIS life. Being led, rather than being equal (which implies leading each other) or being dominant, sounds kinda submissive to me, even if it doesn't incorporate any of the standard classes of subs.

Perhaps I am wrong, but the question comes to mind that he may be posting here simply to understand himself and what it is he gets out of his relationship with his lady love. And perhaps a little uncertainty, conscious or subconscious, would explain his flippant attitude. I don't know. Perhaps I am wrong. It's just a thought that crosses my mind.

 

[Ebonyfire]

You have a good point

SubbieHubbie wrote:
"Maybe its just me... but given the interplay between people in a D/s relationship - which breaks the bounds of 'nilla relationships, I can't help but feel there are actually more rules IN a 'nilla relationship. Not that such rules - in either relationship - are necessarily entirely stated, but there are many things we would do that would be viewed as wrong (even to the point of ending the relationship) when 'nilla."


I can only speak to my own D/s relationships. The rules are very few and simple. I tell you what to do, and you do it. Of course that simplicity has been very carefully negotiated in the beginning.

But in past vanilla relationships, most of the rules have unnegotiated cause they have been dictated more or less by societal roles. By roles I mean that the male does one thing, and the female does something else, leading to misunderstanding and confusion.

I prefer the clarity of a D/s relationship.

Ebony

 

[buckminsterfutt]

My apologies to those of you I offended.

I never anticipated getting this sort of response to my posting. I am somewhat dismayed and sadden that I upset many of you. I didn't realize that I was being so out of line. Please accept my apologies for my hubris, for my flippant attitude and for any disruption to the group I may have caused..

My only explaination/excuse is that both my hubris and humor are my reaction to the totally absurd contradictions that we all must face in life. I had lost something so very precious to me only to discover Lisa. Then Lisa's situation become known to me, I was totally bummed and angry at the universe naturally. We can be bitter about what the universe dishes out or find some other way to cope.

Recently, when I told Lisa that my mom had suffered a series of strokes and was seeing people and things that weren't really there, Lisa said how sorry she felt about this new situation. She then made a quiet comment about the common attributes of the women in my life. We both started laughing, not at my poor mom or Lisa but about how absurd life can be. This sort of dark humor is just my way to overcome a
situation that has no bright side to it.

In any case, how I express these feelings and my poking fun has deeply offended some of you and I sincerely hope you'll accept my apologies.

Some of you speculated on the nature of my relationship with Lisa. All I can suggest is the way I've come to view it, in terms of a teacher and a student. I spent 22 years in a marriage where I grew complacent knowing where I stood, how we felt about one another, so many things I just took for granted. When that part of my comfortable life ended, the universe had some lessons for me to learn.

Lisa is a very unlikely teacher but she did serve to open up my world. Now because there was no intent on Lisa's part to do this, I see it more like the universe teaching me the things I needed to learn and Lisa is the medium that delivers the teaching material.

I have had many wonderful teachers in my life, parents, school teachers, a professor in college, a VP at work. I was even privileged to spend time, sitting on a lawn, chatting with Richard Feynman. I really consider Lisa to be as important a teacher to me as any of those folks. The difference is purely one of intent in the relationship.

Again, it is my sincere hope that you will see fit to forgive me for being an unneeded disruption to your group, my hubris and for my flippant nature and simply hope you will accept my apologies. I will also refrain from any further posts so I won't cause any other problems for the group.

best regards,

buckminster

 

[mskittykatt]

self imposed Death sentance for jaywalking

perhaps i am missing something -
i read through the thread and fail to see why we are having such huge problems, but not talking won't do it...
it seems an honest (and you seem to be really trying here) commitment to real communication is all that is asked for here.


(i've got that playground "no body loves me, everybody hates me, guess i'll go eat worms" song playing in my head. )

*sigh* - my answer to the whole thing <<<what anyone else thinks of me is none of my buisness>>>