ok uhm im like wayyyy new here

[cymbidia]

I'm pretty sure she sees the derision in the two terms as analogous, mg5, and reacts with superhuman speed, astounding fluency, and killing accuracy in both cases.




BTW, been to the limericks thread lately?

 

[morninggirl5]

Yes, and i'm still speechless.


As soon as i can get my thoughts together coherently, you'll have a PM.

 

[lil_boi_mikey]

i think its great to be able to open the thread to the discussion to the Daddi/ boi /transgender side... ive found its hard to really discuss this side with alot of people that can really understand it.

 

[KestralWolfe]

Well, I've started the thread many of you have asked for...

Lesbian Daddi/boi perspective

And there it is boys/bois and girls/grrls. I do hope all enjoy it....although, I will warn you, it's a long first post

Be well, be safe, be happy,
Kes

 

[cellis]

Kestral and mikey...

Thank you so much for taking the time to post this thread. The information is eye-openning for me at least (ok, so I've been living in a cave).

The web site you posted was most interesting. I think the two of you add a lot to the site and I am glad you are here at Lit.

 

[KestralWolfe]

*smiles* Thanks, Cellis. One of the things I try to do, as often as I can, is open doors for people...open their minds as far as I possibly can.....and, if by sharing myself I can do that, all the better, I think


Namaste,
Kes

 

[Cirrus]

Risia: No offense taken at all by your question. I've never known a transvestite male, at least not one who was "out", so I can't say if I'd prefer them to men who aren't transvestites....but the idea wouldn't repulse me either, if I genuinely liked the person. I might take a little getting used to though.

The men I've been very attracted to aren't either butch or sissies. Actually, the whole Machismo thing is a turn off for me. I don't want to be with a "brute". The man I'm with now, and another before that I was deeply in love with share one common thread. They are much more open with their emotions than most other men I know....I guess you could say sensitive.

My current partner is very masculine, though not butch. He was raised in south Texas and as such was raised with certain macho ideals. Never cry, never show pain, hit on as many women as you can, if you're not getting laid you're not a man, if you're in love you're a wuss, if it can be killed shoot it, if it's alcohol drink it...that kind of thing.

He's past most of that now, and believes/realizes that emotions are part of being human, no matter what they are, and that others have emotions, too. He's realized that he can be who he is without having to fulfil an image. If it had been up to me, we would have had sex long before we did...it was HE that wanted to wait because he wanted it to mean something. He gets choked up at TV commercials, doesn't like veiwing any sort of violence, would never harm an animal (won't even hunt or fish)...but yet there is something VERY manly about him. He treats me as a true gentlemen would treat a lady. He makes me feel feminine, and I like that even though I do ID with a more masculine identity.

OTOH, there is something I find attractive about femme males, and have a few as friends...some gay, some straight, though I can't see myself with a femme partner. I do need a masculine influence in my intimate relationships. I want and need to be reminded that I am someone's woman.

I don't know if I've explained well or answered your question, but that's where I stand.

 

[RisiaSkye]

I thought trailer trash was the hot button term.

They're used pretty interchangeably by most people. Trailer parks are pretty much the only centers of poverty in the U.S. whose occupants are predominately white; however, not all trailer occupants are white, just like not all "white trash" live in trailers. There's a whole migrant realm of homelessness, car-living, and home-hopping that "trailer trash" doesn't really acknowledge.

Not that you asked.

I was all set to give my "Everyone who lives in manufactured housing isn't deserving of your derision" speech on another thread but she beat me to it.

I'm sneaky that way.
Yes, I'm the self-appointed spokesperson for white trash on Lit. It's a tough job, but I had the credentials, and for some reason there wasn't much competition for the position.

cym--stop telling people how to push my buttons. I ramble quite enough already, don't I? Why make it worse?

And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion!

Sincerely,
RisiaSkye
Former Resident, Moon Meadows Trailer Park

 

[KillerMuffin]

Welcome!

I'm not into this whole man~butch~dyke labeling business. I have enough trouble with PC to have to figure out what not to call people.

I'm as macho as the next guy. In fact, I've got more machismo than the average male. I'm vaguely latina, it's in some of my hemoglobin.

I, quite frankly, don't get it. Never will, but then again gender identity has never been an issue for me. Iyam what Iyam. Though I do like wearing dresses, even when I tore my Powerwagon through the mud and picked fights with chevylovers.

I can't figure out what my point is.

Anyway.

Smooches on the trailer trash queen. My 16x80 can kick you 16x80's ass.

 

[MotorCitySam]

Yes, boys and girls - and bois - Risia is doing her Ph.D level research work in something akin to the above topic. How perceptive of you to notice.

And now you know one of her hot buttons.
Here's another one: white trash.
Shhhhh! For gods sakes - shhhhhhh!
Don't say it out loud unless you want to get her going again!

Well, that's one name I don't worry about anyone calling me!

 

[morninggirl5]

They're used pretty interchangeably by most people. Trailer parks are pretty much the only centers of poverty in the U.S. whose occupants are predominately white; however, not all trailer occupants are white, just like not all "white trash" live in trailers. There's a whole migrant realm of homelessness, car-living, and home-hopping that "trailer trash" doesn't really acknowledge.

Not that you asked.


I'm sneaky that way.
Yes, I'm the self-appointed spokesperson for white trash on Lit. It's a tough job, but I had the credentials, and for some reason there wasn't much competition for the position.

cym--stop telling people how to push my buttons. I ramble quite enough already, don't I? Why make it worse?

And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion!

Sincerely,
RisiaSkye
Former Resident, Moon Meadows Trailer Park

I tend to ignore the talk pretty well. Several years ago when renting an apartment became impossible to do without a roommate, i purchased a trailer. I have 3 bedrooms, 2 baths and a yard larger than my friends who own their houses. And it's less expensive than the one bedroom apartment i was renting.


If people want to make assumptions about me because of where i live, then they're probably not someone whose opinions are going to matter to me anyway.

 

[cymbidia]

Well, that's one name I don't worry about anyone calling me!

Or, if they do, you'll know they don't know anything at all about you for real!

Several years ago when renting an apartment became impossible to do without a roommate, i purchased a trailer. I have 3 bedrooms, 2 baths and a yard larger than my friends who own their houses. And it's less expensive than the one bedroom apartment i was renting.

I used one whole entire year's worth of housing funds when i was in college to do the same thing. Then i lived in it the whole time i was there, no paying anything else but the nominal monthly space fee. I had a yard and privacy. I could garden. I didn't have to listen to other people's music or share the bathroom with people of questionable cleanliness. I loved it, actually. When i left town to move up to the SF Bay area, i sold it to an incoming student for exactly what i'd paid for it.

I never felt less for living there, either, in any way. On the contrary, i felt wise in my decision to own my own place instead of renting.

 

[RisiaSkye]

morninggirl--I doubt if you'd frequently get put in the "trailer trash" group by most people. It's always been my impression that not all trailer-dwellers draw the white-trash label. For some reason, a double-wide seems to indicate status of at "working-class," a generally respected--if not romanticized--position, while the more affordable and portable single-wide common to depressed income areas conjures images of cars on blocks on the lawn, velvet Elvis paintings, and other markers of "trailer trash-ness." Even within the trailer park, there are class distinctions. There's a huge difference between buying a double wide and renting a 20 year old single-wide, only one of which is money.

Actual money plays a role in class labelling, but it's far from the only factor. My husband makes more than twice what I earn in a year, yet his job is "working class," my job is "white collar." People hear what he does and fidget in their discomfort, knowing that he's a college-educated white male from an educated and affluent family. People hear what I do and they applaud my ability to "rise above my past," knowing that I come from an uneducated family of immigrants and physical laborers.

Apparently, he's working beneath himself, and I'm working above myself. I'm even quite commonly told that I'm "lucky" to have a man who'll allow me to get my doctorate and hold a more prestigious position than his; the supposition is that he's sacrificing his own desires for prestige to allow me mine. Somehow, the fact that he makes more money behind a bar at 25 than most corporate drones make at the peaks of their careers in their 40s takes a backseat to the notions of class that are determined by social prestige. What's the primary difference between our jobs? I don't have a dress code requirement, and his job doesn't require a degree. Also, last year he made $30K more than I did. Labels are complex things.

Sam, you've got enough labels to worry about already; I'd think you'd be thrilled for someone else to get stuck with a few of them. Thank God for small favors, this is one that doesn't get thrown in your direction. But it's not a competition, darlin'.

Okay, so now that we're all assembled, anybody wanna deal with this one--this is the label I'm most interested in currently: Wigger.

 

[MotorCitySam]

I grew up dirt poor. I never knew my father, and my mother suffered from mental illness that kept her from being able to hold a job long. I was raised by my grndmother, who worked until the day she died as a nurse's aide, and never had $100 in the bank in her whole life. We lived in a lot of nasty places, in some of the worst neighborhood's on the East Side of Detroit.
I come from the ghetto, but I am NOT ghetto. That's not how Grandma raised me. I stayed in school, got my diploma, and joined the army. When I got home, Uncle Sam paid my way through college. I now have a BS and an MS in Industrial Engineering, and a high paying job with a Big Three Automaker.
When I see people from the old neighborhood, I get accused of fronting. I have been called a sell out, an Uncle Tom, and an Oreo. I have been told I am "too white" and attacked for having a white girlfriend.
So I know where you are coming from Risia. Some people are always going to see you as a symbol of something, and not as a person. Labels are for soup cans.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Some people are always going to see you as a symbol of something, and not as a person. Labels are for soup cans.

That's one of the smartest things I've read in months, Sam. You're so right, on both counts.

 

[cymbidia]

What's a wigger?





On one side, i'm northern European mutt at least four generations into residency in this country. On the other, i'm descended from Russian Jews; as children and along with thier families, my grandparents fled the Russian pogroms at the turn of the century. They prospered here, those displaced Russian Jews. I've got a fairly well-known opera singer in my family line because of them. My grandfather held a number of patents for the newfangled devices we know as radio, television, and refrigerators. I have blonde hair and blue eyes and was born in San Diego. Why do i feel vaguely ashamed of my very comfy upbringing? I've not done anyone wrong...and no one in my family has done anyone wrong.

Does one have to have had hard times to be more authentic then others who did not have hard times? Don't we all face the same struggles and truths, no matter where we began?

I'm not looking for a fight, or to incite anyone's bad feelings.
I'm curious. I've wondered this before in my life but never had a safe place in which i could ask: do those who have suffered and come from less advantageous surroundings (in terms of, say, a middle class existence and all that brings with it, okay?) have a right to a more vocal claim of being authentic than those who've had it relatively easy (at least on the surface of things) in thier lives? Why or why not?

 

[MotorCitySam]

What's a wigger?





On one side, i'm northern European mutt at least four generations into residency in this country. On the other, i'm descended from Russian Jews; as children and along with thier families, my grandparents fled the Russian pogroms at the turn of the century. They prospered here, those displaced Russian Jews. I've got a fairly well-known opera singer in my family line because of them. My grandfather held a number of patents for the newfangled devices we know as radio, television, and refrigerators. I have blonde hair and blue eyes and was born in San Diego. Why do i feel vaguely ashamed of my very comfy upbringing? I've not done anyone wrong...and no one in my family has done anyone wrong.

Does one have to have had hard times to be more authentic then others who did not have hard times? Don't we all face the same struggles and truths, no matter where we began?

I'm not looking for a fight, or to incite anyone's bad feelings.
I'm curious. I've wondered this before in my life but never had a safe place in which i could ask: do those who have suffered and come from less advantageous surroundings (in terms of, say, a middle class existence and all that brings with it, okay?) have a right to a more vocal claim of being authentic than those who've had it relatively easy (at least on the surface of things) in thier lives? Why or why not?

I believe everyone's life experience are equally valueable, and the idea that some people are more or less authentic than others is wrong.
Compare my upbringing with Caroline's. Her dad had a good factory job. They weren't well off, by any means, but compared to us, they lived like royalty. So I know all about hard times, about how to eat for a week on 5 dollars, or which second hand shops have the best clothes, but she knows what it is like to have a loving father and the support of an extended family, things I have no first hand knowledge about. Who could claim that one of us has more had a more authentic experience in their life than the other?

 

[cymbidia]

Sam?
I think the world is a better place because you're in it.





edited to add: what's a wigger?

 

[Cirrus]

A wigger, as I understand it, is an imalgimation of the words "white" and "nigger". When you call someone a wigger, you're usually referring to a caucasian who's trying to appropriate Black urban culture...listening to rap, wearing traditionally Black clothes, using Black slang, that sort of thing.

 

[MotorCitySam]

Sam?
I think the world is a better place because you're in it.

That is quite high praise coming from someone as fine as yourself. Thank you very much.

 

[MotorCitySam]

A wigger, as I understand it, is an imalgimation of the words "white" and "nigger". When you call someone a wigger, you're usually referring to a caucasian who's trying to appropriate Black urban culture...listening to rap, wearing traditionally Black clothes, using Black slang, that sort of thing.

For the record, I hate rap, I wear my pants up around my waist, with a belt, and the bill of my baseball cap goes in the front.

 

[MotorCitySam]

I think I wrote more words tonight than all the times I was here before put together. But right now, this fine lady is hinting I should be paying attention to other things, so I will wish you goodnight, and thank you all for the fine discussion.

 

[RisiaSkye]

I want to preface this by emphasizing that cym and I are close friends, which is why I take such liberties with addressing her--counting on our friendship to make bluntness more palatable, and counting on cym to be able to read between the lines for my intent, based on our already-established bond.

I also want to say right up front that this is nothing more than my opinion, something that is always subject to change and refinement as I learn from the experience of hearing the voices of others. It's not meant to be in any way marginalizing, exclusionary, or definitive.

What's a wigger?

It's a slang derogatory term used to describe white kids (usually middle class suburbanites) who listen to rap, adopt urban street slang, and design their personal dress and mannerisms in emulation of gangsta style. It's a contraction of white & n----r. But, it's used differently by different people. I'm interested in it because it carries the implication that cross-cultural identification (white/black in this case) is inauthentic at best and socially disruptive at worst.

But, I think it's got pretty complex social potential--if affluent white kids are listening to and appreciating the cultural products of less privileged blacks, that seems like it's got potential for social change in it. On the other hand, are they really hearing the music, or are they appropriating the masculine-power image of gangsta style, decontextualizing it, gentrifying it, and undermining its power? Or worse yet, adopting the most socially destructive misogynistic and nihilistic tendencies of rap without placing it in the specific context of urban rage, misunderstanding the signifying and contestation in the call-and-response dialectic of rap and isolating for emulation a tiny fragment of rap's social messages?


It gets even more complicated when you look at someone like Eminem--a guy who grew up in low-income predominately black districts of Detroit. Is he a wigger? What do we make of his huge white following and the relatively skepticism with which he's been treated by the old guard of rap, particularly against the fact that he won two Grammies and his album brought Dr. Dre the Producer of the Year award--one of the whitest awards in music? Does it matter that he's produced by one of the founders of NWA, and that his first act as a producer in his own right was to bring up 12 black guys from Detroit? Authentic or Inauthentic? Prophet or poseur? gods, this stuff is complicated.

Why do i feel vaguely ashamed of my very comfy upbringing? I've not done anyone wrong...and no one in my family has done anyone wrong.

Because structual inequality implicates everyone in the society, whether or not we directly participate in it. And those at the winning end of a binary model used to oppress (white/black, rich/poor, male/female) benefit from the structural inequalities the most, whether or not they created them, and whether or not they agree with them.

Don't we all face the same struggles and truths, no matter where we began?

You know I love you cym, but no--we don't all face the same struggles and truths. In the abstract, sure we all want love and survival, and all those other warm-fuzzy ideas. But in the here and now, you (just as an example, not an indictment)--an educated and wealthy white woman--don't face the same kinds of struggles as Sam (for instance), an educated and affluent black man. Each social position carries with it its own unique problems, built in limitations, discriminations, and truths.

I, a white woman, don't have to worry that I'll be stopped by the police just for being out in my neighborhood at night, unlike my Mexican-national and latino neighbors, unlike black men in Los Angeles.

Caroline, a femme submissive, doesn't face the immediate assumption that she's inappropriately un-womanly because of her sub-ness, style of dress, or desire for Dominant men.

MasterMe, a white male, doesn't face the behind-the-back suspicion that he got his job or promotion because of his skin color or gender rather than his qualifications--even though he is more likely to have gotten preferential treatment from his superiors than is anyone under the umbrella of affirmative action legislation.

You, a wealthy person, don't have to worry that your electricity will be shut off, you won't have a home next month, or that your children will be treated badly or ignored by their teachers because their clothing indicates poverty in a well-off neighborhood, and teachers assume they're less capable. Or, on the other hand, that they'll be singled out for extra attention, because "we all know" that poor kids are more likely to be abused or neglected at home, right?

No, it's not the same for everyone.

I'm not looking for a fight, or to incite anyone's bad feelings.
I'm curious. I've wondered this before in my life but never had a safe place in which i could ask: do those who have suffered and come from less advantageous surroundings (in terms of, say, a middle class existence and all that brings with it, okay?) have a right to a more vocal claim of being authentic than those who've had it relatively easy (at least on the surface of things) in thier lives? Why or why not?

I don't know if it's about authenticity. Everyone's experience is authentic, and everyone has problems which are very real, at least to them. But, it's a tough line to walk--to allow everyone a voice and an equal right to speak their truth, without somehow making everyone's problems equivalent, undermining the very real and very legitimate claims of unfairness among those who've suffered so that another might thrive.

Nobody is free until everybody has a voice.

You and I have flirted with this conversation before, and I know it sometimes irritates you that when you get stressed out about your life and its struggles that I occasionally remind you of how much you have that others can't even imagine. But I don't do it to suggest your problems aren't real--I do it to put them in the context of others' struggles. And when it comes right down to it, I worry less about the interpersonal dramas we have the luxury to create for ourselves than I do about the entrenched & structurally imposed dramas of bigotry, violence and oppression that the victims had no hand in creating nor much opportunity to change to their own advantage.

But, that's just me. I'm kooky that way.

 

[cymbidia]

Thank you, Cirrus. I thought it must be something along that line but i hadn't ever heard the word before. So, if a wigger is a white guy trying to be black (and who calls that white guy a "wigger" anyway?) then what is the proper ugly name (are these ugly names?) for a black guy trying to be white (and who calls him *that* name?)

This is fascinating.
I don't know any of this stuff.
I know i must seem, ummm, a bit disingenuous on this subject but i really honestly don't know about name-calling in this arena and rarely have an opportunity to learn anything much about it, either.

For the record, I hate rap, I wear my pants up around my waist, with a belt, and the bill of my baseball cap goes in the front.

Yeh.
We've heard all about your plans for that belt, Sam.

Nighty-night, guys.
Sleep well.

 

[RisiaSkye]

As Sam pointed out earlier, "Uncle Tom" and "Oreo" are pretty common epithets for black men who are seen as "too white." Uncle Tom's got obvious roots in Stowe's novel & the slave Tom who forever tried to appease the white society around him; Oreo suggests "black on the outside, white on the inside."