ok uhm im like wayyyy new here

[cymbidia]

I want to preface this by emphasizing that cym and I are close friends, which is why I take such liberties with addressing her--counting on our friendship to make bluntness more palatable, and counting on cym to be able to read between the lines for my intent, based on our already-established bond.

Of course. And R and i have talked about all this stuff on the phone, for hours and hours, in one form or another, too. This isn't new stuff for us, between us.

It's new to the board, though - and skirts some of the issues we try hard, i think, to avoid having out in the open too terribly much. They're kinda uncomfy, aren't they?

But, I think it's got pretty complex social potential--if affluent white kids are listening to and appreciating the cultural products of less privileged blacks, that seems like it's got potential for social change in it. On the other hand, are they really hearing the music, or are they appropriating the masculine-power image of gangsta style, decontextualizing it, gentrifying it, and undermining its power? Or worse yet, adopting the most socially destructive misogynistic and nihilistic tendencies of rap without placing it in the specific context of urban rage, misunderstanding the signifying and contestation in the call-and-response dialectic of rap and isolating for emulation a tiny fragment of rap's social messages?

My daughter listens to rap. My almost-14 year old child, a child of advantage and wealth, listens to rap. She buys the CD's. She knows the words.

I think she just likes the beat, though, R. She and all her friends. I'm pretty damn sure that the message, the meaning, the angst and anger is lost on here - and all the kids like her. They just like the beat. They like that it uses words their parents don't like. They like the images of sexuality it contains.

Or so it appears to me.
You want to interview her on it sometime?
Better hurry. Her musical tastes are quickly switching to rock, including some of the kind i listened to when i was her age, oddly enough.

(She knows about you, btw, knows that you'll be an extra pair of eyes for me (besides the members of my family) when she moves down there to go to your college in a few years, as she's planning at the moment. I even told her that she had to take the class you teach from you.)

But in the here and now, you (just as an example, not an indictment)--an educated and wealthy white woman--don't face the same kinds of struggles as Sam (for instance), an educated and affluent black man. Each social position carries with it its own unique problems, built in limitations, discriminations, and truths.

"Wealth" is a relative term, R, as you well know. I used to be wealthy. I am no longer wealthy, in the terms of my experiences and my life. Today my reality is such that i'm aware that if i spend my money on unplanned and last minute airline tickets, for example, that money is gone. It won't be replaced in the next week by an apparently inexhaustible supply of money. When it's gone, it's gone. If my car dies, i'll have to buy another one, something that will take a huge bite out of my reserves, reserves that aren't being replaced faster then they can be used - anymore.

No, i don't face being stopped because my skin is the wrong color. I doubt i'll ever face not having food or electricity or the money to pay my bills. My children will not be discriminated against, either, because...they won't. They're rich kids. In their environment, until they leave this place to begin to make their own way, they're as cared for and carefully protected as their father and i can provide for them in this exceedingly safe spot in the world. Would any parent choose differently?

And is there something inherently wrong with all that, R?

Are those who have to struggle better in some way simply because they have to struggle?

No, it's not the same for everyone.

No, it's definitely not the same for everyone, R.
But should we at the affluent end of your binary scale be silent, guilty of something bad, embarrassed at what have and who we are - just because we have and we are? Should we have fewer problems in the world because we have more stuff, more access to stuff, more info about stuff? Is it all about stuff? Should we have less claim to true reality because our existence was/is (perhaps) less threaded through by insecurity and danger and problems?

But, it's a tough line to walk--to allow everyone a voice and an equal right to speak their truth, without somehow making everyone's problems equivalent, undermining the very real and very legitimate claims of unfairness among those who've suffered so that another might thrive.

Nobody is free until everybody has a voice.

Agreed.

But R?
Life is life. Biological life on this planet thrives at the expense of other biological life. It's hardwired into us as living entities.

Don't EVEN go toward thinking i'm making some kinda rationalization for the gross and inhumane way that people have treated other people over the years that we've been people. Slavery is always wrong, and it certainly didn't being with Europeans raiding on the African continents, either. The Crusaders were wrong. The inhumanities we've visited on each other have been occurring since nomadic hunter-gather bands raided each other's camps for food, tools, and women - probably in that order.

We thrive at the expense of other life. We're hunters, meat-eaters. We require the essential amino acids that a meat-rich diet provides, even if we have to play protein-matching games with vegetable sources to get it.

Everyone will never have a voice.
It's not possible.
We're Homo sapiens sapiens with millions of years of evolved behaviors behind us - and we don't let everyone be the King of the Hill.

I am a starry-eyed optimist, R. You know that. You've laughed at/with me about it. But in this matter, with the above declaration, you eclipse even me in the matter of wishing for that which may not be possible.

You and I have flirted with this conversation before, and I know it sometimes irritates you that when you get stressed out about your life and its struggles that I occasionally remind you of how much you have that others can't even imagine.

Never.
I think you do it to remind me of how fortunate i really am, and in the ways that most matter. In that, R, you are always a true friend to me.

And when it comes right down to it, I worry less about the interpersonal dramas we have the luxury to create for ourselves than I do about the entrenched & structurally imposed dramas of bigotry, violence and oppression that the victims had no hand in creating nor much opportunity to change to their own advantage.

They're fortunate indeed to have one so eloquent and voracious as a champion, R.

But, that's just me. I'm kooky that way.

Why do you always end your most impassioned posts with of self-deprecating asides?




edited to correct grossly embarassing spelling errors. Educated, indeed.

edited again to fix the fucking html coding.
Yeh. I'm educated.

 

[RisiaSkye]

No, i don't face being stopped because my skin is the wrong color. I doubt i'll ever face not having food or electricity or the money to pay my bills. My children will not be discriminated against, either, because...they won't. They're rich kids. In their environment, until they leave this place to begin to make their own way, they're as cared for and carefully protected as their father and i can provide for them in this exceedingly safe spot in the world. Would any parent choose differently?

And is there something inherently wrong with all that, R?

Are those who have to struggle better in some way simply because they have to struggle?

The short answer is, no there isn't anything inherently wrong with having money and access to power; the moral judgements attached to relative wealth come not from having it but from the uses one chooses to make of it--both in terms of the money itself, and in terms of the privileged social position it affords.

No, those who face discrimination and who scrape to eke out their own survival aren't better in some way just because they struggle. Nor did I suggest in any way that they were. All I've said is that all problems are not equal, all realities not equally difficult to live within, all identities not equally faced with impersonal discrimination from the outside.

No, it's definitely not the same for everyone, R.
But should we at the affluent end of your binary scale be silent, guilty of something bad, embarrassed at what have and who we are - just because we have and we are? Should we have fewer problems in the world because we have more stuff, more access to stuff, more info about stuff? Is it all about stuff? Should we have less claim to true reality because our existence was/is (perhaps) less threaded through by insecurity and danger and problems?

I've never suggested any of those things, and you know as well as anyone that my life, work, and identity are not about "stuff." In fact, I was very careful to point out that it's not about silencing the privileged, it's about creating a space for the less privileged to speak, and to give voice to grievances, hopefully without lumping all life-struggles into the same undifferentiated pile. There's a big difference between the two.

I think it's hard to remember that when we sit around the campfire and compare our battle scars, it's a conversation--not a competition. (And that goes for me too, btw.)

Everyone will never have a voice.
It's not possible.

That may be the case, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna stop trying just because it may never become a reality.

I am a starry-eyed optimist, R. You know that. You've laughed at/with me about it. But in this matter, with the above declaration, you eclipse even me in the matter of wishing for that which may not be possible.

I told you I'm an optimist. You just didn't believe me.
Actually, I'm an idealist but not as much of an optimist. I agree that we are unlikely to give everyone a chance to speak, and I know how much the people in power have at their disposal to preserve and pass down that power to those they choose. Despite all of that, however, I choose to believe that every voice has value and should be heard, and that even tiny strides toward tolerance and fair-mindedness have a ripple effect that makes society a little more creative, communication a little better, and people of all kinds a little more free.

Why do you always end your most impassioned posts with of self-deprecating asides?

Because I'm embarassed by myself on an almost continual basis, but never more so than when I speak my truth, the rambling incoherence of my own deluded heart & mind.

 

[cymbidia]

I've never suggested any of those things, and you know as well as anyone that my life, work, and identity are not about "stuff." In fact, I was very careful to point out that it's not about silencing the privileged, it's about creating a space for the less privileged to speak, and to give voice to grievances, hopefully without lumping all life-struggles into the same undifferentiated pile. There's a big difference between the two.

I do know that, R. Now everyone who reads this exchange (uh, think that'll be more then you and me?) will know it, too. I wanted no questions on that matter.

I think it's hard to remember that when we sit around the campfire and compare our battle scars, it's a conversation--not a competition. (And that goes for me too, btw.)

You have more scars then i do but you've also flown closer to the sun then i have. However, scars are scars and i have my share. Like everyone, some of them are in places not easily seen. In the end, every picture tells a story, don't it?

I told you I'm an optimist. You just didn't believe me.

Well god damn if you weren't telling the truth!

Despite all of that, however, I choose to believe that every voice has value and should be heard, and that even tiny strides toward tolerance and fair-mindedness have a ripple effect that makes society a little more creative, communication a little better, and people of all kinds a little more free.

~quiet heartfelt emotional applause~
Your passion on this subject (like many others) does you credit as a very good human being, R.

Because I'm embarassed by myself on an almost continual basis, but never more so than when I speak my truth, the rambling incoherence of my own deluded heart & mind.

Not so deluded.
Not so rambling.
Rather:
Clear.
Elegant.
Impassioned.
Truth-filled.

 

[CarolineOh]

Well. I'll have you know I read every word of the discussion, cym, and found it engrossing.
I look at someone like Sam, who came from such a deprived background, and through hard work and strength of character has made a success of his life, and it is tempting to believe that poverty instills the virtues that allowed him to succeed, but that's not true. He succeeded despite poverty, not because of it. I'm sure the struggle was a factor in building his character, but there is no reason to assume that others, from more privileged backgrounds, don't go through similar character building experiences.

As for the authenticity issue, I have had people make the assumption that my relationship with Sam was somehow inauthentic, that I was only interested in him because of the whole Black Stud mythos, or that I was jumping on a trend, or that I was only trying to be shocking by dating a black man. None of those things are true, and yet I blanche a little under those kinds of remarks, because I do, generally. find black men more attractive than white men.
My point, and I think I do have one is that we all have issues of the authenticity of our attitudes and feelings.
The issue of cultural authenticity of someone like Eminem is a little different , I think. I can understand why a black person might feel resentment that the most popular rap star is white, just as in previous generations, the most popular jazz or rock and roll artists were whites copying black developed styles. But that doesn't lessen the authenticity of an Eminem any more than it does that of Benny Goodman or Elvis Presley. Personally, the fact that much of what he says is so repellent bolsters his claim to be authentic in my eyes. I can appreciate his personal authenticity, which at the same time lamenting the larger lack of authenticity of our culture's view of the musical form he works in, much as the same way I can appreciate Elvis Presley as a unique artisitc voice while bemoaning the fact that the mostly black singers and songwriters who were the true creative forces in rock and roll were far less successful in the marketplace.
Does any of this make sense? I didn't get much sleep last night, we were getting really authentic

 

[MotorCitySam]

I read it all too, cym, and enjoyed it very much. It's good to see friends debate in mutual respect, that's when learning really happens.

 

[Sandia]

lil boi, did you ever dream this would come out here...?

What an interesting and fascinating discussion.


cymbidia

Does one have to have had hard times to be more authentic then others who did not have hard times? Don't we all face the same struggles and truths, no matter where we began?

I'm not looking for a fight, or to incite anyone's bad feelings.
I'm curious. I've wondered this before in my life but never had a safe place in which i could ask: do those who have suffered and come from less advantageous surroundings (in terms of, say, a middle class existence and all that brings with it, okay?) have a right to a more vocal claim of being authentic than those who've had it relatively easy (at least on the surface of things) in thier lives? Why or why not?

You asked!

My two cents: Bad experiences... tough times... struggles...
Regardless of where they came from or why they happened, make people stronger. Deepen their character. Widen their experience, and increase their capacity for insight and sympathy...

If you rise about the struggle, that is.

Sandia.

 

[Sandia]

Here I go again...

Are those who have to struggle better in some way simply because they have to struggle?

Yes. Fortunately, most peeps (I'm not sure ALL) struggle with something during their lives... Regardless of their economic, racial, or sexual status...

To see where I'm coming from... I've struggled with a melancholy disposition for most of my life (my way of talking about depression) and with an awkward, slightly maladjusted social presense... that's led to a sort of oppositional, transgressive attitude toward society...

And I'd qualify as poor white trash, if you judged from where I live. Even though I have a law degree (I represent poor folks, pretty much exclusively).

Sandia.

 

[CarolineOh]

Sandia, I can't completely agree with what you've said in your last two posts.
I think those who struggle and succeed, as you have, or as Sam have, gain something immeasurable from the experience.
But you are winners. Many, many people do not get past their struggles, but succumb to bitterness or unhappy resignation. The struggles of your life have made you a stronger, better person, but haven't similar struggles broken many other people?
And if that is so, how do we determine if it was the struggle that made the person better, or that it is the better people who emerge from the struggle?

 

[Sandia]

Sandia, I can't completely agree with what you've said in your last two posts.
I think those who struggle and succeed, as you have, or as Sam have, gain something immeasurable from the experience.
But you are winners. Many, many people do not get past their struggles, but succumb to bitterness or unhappy resignation. The struggles of your life have made you a stronger, better person, but haven't similar struggles broken many other people?
And if that is so, how do we determine if it was the struggle that made the person better, or that it is the better people who emerge from the struggle?

Caroline, you're completely right. Lots of folks don't make it. I see them literally everday. (And I didn't mean to say my own struggles have been particularly hard!) All I meant to say is that trials present the opportunity for growth (God, I sound cheesy here! -not like me at all!) But I don't think everybody makes it... And even the ones that make it sometimes come out scarred.

As to peeps who've never had to struggle for anything... well, I guess I'm not qualified to say... except that if they haven't yet, I'm guessing they will, soon.

Sandia.