ok, why does everyone hate my poem?

[Angeline]

In Praise of Senna Jawa

Only here could I grow fond of a guy who calls me both an idiot and a "Spinoza dwarf," which I think is at least ethnically correct (um the Spinoza part).

Eve, I say you and me start the Senna Jawa fan club. We like him. You know we do. And I know Kdog has a soft spot on his paw for Senna. He'll join.

How can you not like a guy who writes the following:

i end up singing anyway
in english
my own lyrics:

bu-
tterfly time was
nice
but
didn't buy
much now
yooo
put me down
'cos mine
bu-
tterfly time is gone

people laugh at me straight in my face
a woman runs out of the restaurant
without paying
another
sits next to me and likes me
if i shaved and cut my hair

The cities of the city by Senna Jawa

and he likes jazz.

 

[WickedEve]

SJ, forgive me for this. I couldn't help myself.

Oh! A fan club! Girl, what a neato idea! I'll be responsible for sending out SJ posters to everyone who sends me a self-addressed, stamped crate (he's not that big but his ego is.) You think we could get him to pose in thongs? He could hold his favorite poem over his face if he's feeling bashful. Heck, I'd tack that over my bed.

 

[Angeline]

SJ Posters

Posters? We gotta have posters? And we gotta mail stuff? Already this is too much work. And listen if there are going to be premium items, I want us to send out the decoder rings, y'know like with a secret message that explains what your poem means.

(See Senna, I like and respect you. Eve just wants a cheap thrill.)

 

[WickedEve]

Re: SJ Posters

Posters? We gotta have posters? And we gotta mail stuff? Already this is too much work. And listen if there are going to be premium items, I want us to send out the decoder rings, y'know like with a secret message that explains what your poem means.

(See Senna, I like and respect you. Eve just wants a cheap thrill.)

Hold on, girly! SJ is never ever a cheap thrill. Senna, think black satin thong. And could you grip your pen? I think we poets really should consider doing a calendar. SJ could be the month of January when he's still gentle and then he could wrap it up by also posing for December - you know, all ferocious and exciting - armed with a whip and a critique! Oh, I'm getting all goose pimply. Where's Rowdy Ted?!!

 

[paganangel]

drake,
now THAT'S good criticism! yougave me something to chew on and think about. thanks.

eve,
i meant that they really are called f-holes. no sexual connotation intended, just accuracy. (they are shaped like little f's)

lick,
there was a little double meaning there, mostly i just love alliteratin...a bit too much at times.

angeline,
first off, i have to say...love the billboards. second, maybe, but we'l never know if he doesn't give me any. (advice, that is.)

 

[Angeline]

Senna and advice

pagan, it's true that most of what SJ said to you was his opinion, though the following general advice from him is certainly true:


great recorded poetry is with us for more than two and a half millenia, a lot of profound fun.

For what it's worth, I liked your poem and think there are some interesting things happening in it. Furthermore, I don't think it's so trite to compare a woman to a musical intrument--there is nothing new under the Sun; if we start restricting ourselves on the basis of trite, we eventually end up with nothing to write about--the trick is to do it in a fresh way.

On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that someone who has written what I think is a pretty smart poem would not see that "f hole" (and yes I know what it is and that it's a legit term), used in the context of an instrument as woman metaphor, has a sexual connotation. I dunno. To suggest otherwise seems glib to me.

As far as SJ's advice, there is plenty of it here on this board free for the taking. Plenty with which I, admittedly, do not agree, but lots that is insightful and genuinely helpful, too. And he is, IMHO, one of the best poets at Lit. I learn just from reading his poems. I would also say that of Wicked Eve, JUDO, Lauren Hynde, smithpeter, and a few others.

Not meaning to be argumentative, btw--just musing.

 

[paganangel]

Re: Senna and advice

pagan, it's true that most of what SJ said to you was his opinion, though the following general advice from him is certainly true:


great recorded poetry is with us for more than two and a half millenia, a lot of profound fun.

For what it's worth, I liked your poem and think there are some interesting things happening in it. Furthermore, I don't think it's so trite to compare a woman to a musical intrument--there is nothing new under the Sun; if we start restricting ourselves on the basis of trite, we eventually end up with nothing to write about--the trick is to do it in a fresh way.

On the other hand, I find it hard to believe that someone who has written what I think is a pretty smart poem would not see that "f hole" (and yes I know what it is and that it's a legit term), used in the context of an instrument as woman metaphor, has a sexual connotation. I dunno. To suggest otherwise seems glib to me.

As far as SJ's advice, there is plenty of it here on this board free for the taking. Plenty with which I, admittedly, do not agree, but lots that is insightful and genuinely helpful, too. And he is, IMHO, one of the best poets at Lit. I learn just from reading his poems. I would also say that of Wicked Eve, JUDO, Lauren Hynde, smithpeter, and a few others.

Not meaning to be argumentative, btw--just musing.

u don't come off as argumentative at all.

but i really didn't intend the connotation. that's not to say i didn't know it was there afterwards, but i didn't see the poem working with any other term.

"one true sentence, start with that." - ernest hemingway

as fa as his advice, it's just that, he offered none. look at the vry example you yourself offered. that's not advice. THAT'S just musing. and tat's fine too, butdon't try to fool me into thinkng there's anything constructive in his statements.

and it's FINE to see connotation where i don't. hell, YOU might be right and me, wrong!

"trust the tale and not the teller." - i wish i knew who said this.

so far, i've recieved sound advice from everyone but sj, including the "fan club members".
maybe the poem is "junk". just tell me why.

to do otherwise? that's glib.

at least in this post, he comes off as some cheesy highschool kid who isn't near as smart as he thinks he is.

 

[JUDO]

f-holes or Sound Holes - A quick note from the Harvard Dictionary of Music - An opening of various shapes cut in the table of violins and other stringed instruments. Such an opening permits freer movemnent of the central part of the table, thus helping it reinforce the tones produced by the strings. F. Savart's (1791-1841) experiments showed that in violins and violas, the traditional F-shape of the holes is superior to any other shape. In earlier stringed instruments (viols), the holes were in the shape of a sickle or half-moon (also dubbed C-holes), whereas the apertures of lutes and guitars are in the shape of a circle in the center of the sound table. In the latter, the shape and position of the hoels result in the prolongation of the sound, whereas the F-holes of the violins have the opposite effect.

 

[Angeline]

Definitions

re: your comment:

to do otherwise? that's glib.


All are taken from Merriam Webster's Collegiate 10th Edition (standard dictionary and edition for major publishing houses, both popular and academic)


"to do otherwise" is colloquial

Main Entry: col·lo·qui·al 
Pronunciation: k&-'lO-kwE-&l
Function: adjective
Date: 1751
1 : of or relating to conversation : CONVERSATIONAL
2 a : used in or characteristic of familiar and informal conversation; also : unacceptably informal b : using conversational style
- colloquial noun
- col·lo·qui·al·i·ty /-"lO-kwE-'a-l&-tE/ noun
- col·lo·qui·al·ly /-'lO-kwE-&-lE/ adverb


cf. with definition 3 for glib (my intended meaning)

Main Entry: glib 
Pronunciation: 'glib
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): glib·ber; glib·best
Etymology: probably modification of Low German glibberig slippery
Date: 1593
1 a : marked by ease and informality : NONCHALANT b : showing little forethought or preparation : OFFHAND <glib answers> c : lacking depth and substance : SUPERFICIAL <glib solutions to knotty problems>
2 archaic : SMOOTH, SLIPPERY
3 : marked by ease and fluency in speaking or writing often to the point of being insincere or deceitful <a glib politician>
- glib·ly adverb
- glib·ness noun

I don't think your poem is junk at all, but a hazzard of public posting and requests for feedback is definitions from people like me and unsolicited opinions from SJ......

 

[paganangel]

Re: Definitions

re: your comment:

to do otherwise? that's glib.


All are taken from Merriam Webster's Collegiate 10th Edition (standard dictionary and edition for major publishing houses, both popular and academic)


"to do otherwise" is colloquial

Main Entry: col·lo·qui·al 
Pronunciation: k&-'lO-kwE-&l
Function: adjective
Date: 1751
1 : of or relating to conversation : CONVERSATIONAL
2 a : used in or characteristic of familiar and informal conversation; also : unacceptably informal b : using conversational style
- colloquial noun
- col·lo·qui·al·i·ty /-"lO-kwE-'a-l&-tE/ noun
- col·lo·qui·al·ly /-'lO-kwE-&-lE/ adverb


cf. with definition 3 for glib (my intended meaning)

Main Entry: glib 
Pronunciation: 'glib
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): glib·ber; glib·best
Etymology: probably modification of Low German glibberig slippery
Date: 1593
1 a : marked by ease and informality : NONCHALANT b : showing little forethought or preparation : OFFHAND <glib answers> c : lacking depth and substance : SUPERFICIAL <glib solutions to knotty problems>
2 archaic : SMOOTH, SLIPPERY
3 : marked by ease and fluency in speaking or writing often to the point of being insincere or deceitful <a glib politician>
- glib·ly adverb
- glib·ness noun

I don't think your poem is junk at all, but a hazzard of public posting and requests for feedback is definitions from people like me and unsolicited opinions from SJ......

Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary
(it's also fully revised and updated. says so right on the cover.)

glib (glib), adj., glibber, glibbest. 1. readily fluent, often thoughtlessly, superficially, or insincerely so.

 

[Rybka]

An S.J. fan ?

so far, i've recieved sound advice from everyone but sj, including the "fan club members".
maybe the poem is "junk". just tell me why.

I assume I am one of the "fan club members" since I sent you a PM about S.J. which read:

Rybka wrote on 01-06-2003 04:57 PM:
Paganangel,
Consider yourself lucky to have received commentary from Senna Jawa. He is probably the most intelligent of all of the poets who post on Lit, and he is arguably the best. Certainly he is the most worldly. Unfortunately his style is abrupt and his criticism pointed. He seldom qualifies with modifying phrases. You got off VERY easy. That was his version of "goodwill"! SJ is a taste that has to be acquired. Nearly everyone dislikes him at first, but stick around, he will grow on you as your poetic abilities also grow.

I agree that "trite" is trite, but in a sense I enjoy the conundrum there involved.

"f-holes" also have another meaning, and this IS an erotic website. What do you expect the average Lit. reader will think? Your initial lines create an image of the violin as a woman:
"Dark wood curving finely
Cutouts and f holes
Strings to cage and catch me
..."
What other holes does a violin have... and a woman? Maybe you should develop the metaphor, not reject it.

Don't be so sensitive. What happened to "please read, rate, and brutally critique my latest poem"? You are the one who started the thread. - Learn from the responses! Learn to think of your poems objectively. They are not "children" to be protected, but rather just words on a screen. Pretend someone else had written them and then analyze them. - My rule of thumb is to leave a work alone for at least a month, and the come back and reread it. If I still see worth in it, then it may be ready for the light of day.

Regards, Rybka

You replied:

thanks, and i knew i'd hear something like this from someone defending him. the thing is, his criticism was hardly brutal or constructive. i could get it from any high school student.

as far as being abrupt....HA! wait till u get to know me! i make him look like a schoolgirl. i love scathing critism...i hate it when it's pure ego. (think f. murray abrahm in "finding forrester".)

finally, if i'm gonna be abused it's not gonna be by a star wars character.

I would not call myself "a fan", but I have learned to read and consider Senna Jawa's words very carefully. You have to cut away many sharp leaves before you reach the sweetness of the sugar cane.

Can you explain the "star wars character" (sic) reference? I can't find it on any search engine.


Regards,                       Rybka

 

[paganangel]

private message means private...ASSHOLE!

and it was just a joke. his name does sound like a starwars character.

 

[Angeline]

This board paganangel

is a place where people treat each other with civility. I've been posting here for almost a year and have grown as a writer from being part of this community. In all the time I've spent here--and I'm here a lot--I have never seen someone call another person an asshole. And oh yes I've heard the term and I'm very educated, by the way, but grew up poor hearing plenty worse, so don't bother with the dictionary this time. (I'll happily accept that you were not aware of the f-hole connotation, if you'll accept that I intended the meaning of "glib" as defined by both our dictionaries. I'm tired of these semantics anyway.)

You came here asking why everyone hates your poem. You asked people to be brutal. They mostly were not. People here were kind to you, and you got detailed constructive criticism from some of the best writers on the site. Granted you met our resident curmudgeon who was honest in his opinion and, at worst, no more than what you asked for: brutal.

A few of us tried to tell you, jokingly, that Senna is that way with everyone, so don't take it seriously. We also tried to tell you that he knows his stuff. We did this because we are nice people and we wanted to try to make you comfortable here. Maybe you don't want or need that: fine, but unless you want to be no less sophmoric and confrontational than you accuse Senna of being, you should chill and accept what you came for--"brutal" criticism.

I understand your point about private messages, but you totally misinterpreted Rybka's attempt to offer some discreet advice. In the face of such silly blustering as your response, I might have posted it, too. And private is private, but we don't live by the law of omerta here, either.

Epithets may work on the general board or wherever else you'e been, but here they only make people less inclined to help you.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Re: Re: ok, why does everyone hate my poem?

#1. they are called f-holes. get your mind out of the gutter.

About 90% of the USA population in the past 40 years is in that "gutter".

It doesn't matter that you didn't have this association. The author's reading of his own poem is irrelevant. Only the readers's reading counts, and first of all the text as such.

The autor is responsible for each meaning and for every common or reasonable association and echoes of his words and phrases. Like in a criminal case: not knowing law is no excuse. And not realizing a poem damaging association is no excuse for an author.

This unwanted association was the least problem with your poem though.

BTW, in superb poems multiple meaning work harmoniously together. It is one of the aspects of integrating a poem. Boleslaw Lesmian went still further. He introduced many naturally sounding neologisms, sometimes only one syllable long, which would associate with different parts of the poem (in addition to contributing to the phrase in which they had appeared), like in music, when a phrase connects with some distant portions of the piece.

Now, talking about trite junk and poetry's gutter, especially that that "Dr in your face" TheDR4KE has crawled here back from his hole, let me mention that when you feel really, really down about one of your poems you can always count on a miniscule consolation coming from glancing at any of his poems. It is truly unbelievable, you'd think it impossible, but any of his poems is still way worse than your poem, he manages such an incredible feat. You may check for instance his Heavy Life: Resonance. Ugh! -- you see, it's one of the purposes of an open forum to have here everything, and I mean everything, including Dr in your face's ascii polution. I like it about Literotica. It is a tolerant place, extremely so.

Regards,

 

[KillerMuffin]

Calling someone's poetry "Junk" without explanation as to why it's junk or how to improve it is so not good critique. It's called negative feedback and it's total bullshit. It's cruel, it's vicious, and it has absolutely no redeeming value.

A rite of passage my left buttcheek.











The year is still new, 2003, so I will be very gentle.

The 2nd line is interesting, even if "f holes" has a primitive connotation. The first line is ok but it already sounds cliched and not interesting. The rest is junk. (No, I don't "hate it", I just don't care for it).

BTW, the erotic comparison of female body to a musical instrument is horribly trite.

So, yes, indeed, you "don't know dick about poetry" but with a bit of enthusiasm and good will there is nothing to stop you from learning some instead of repeating that phrase. great recorded poetry is with us for more than two and a half millenia, a lot of profound fun.

Regards,

Dickhead

 

[TheDR4KE]

Re: Re: Re: Re: ok, why does everyone hate my poem?

Hehe ... thanks for the chuckle Senna.



By the way ...

It doesn't matter that you didn't have this association. The author's reading of his own poem is irrelevant. Only the readers's reading counts, and first of all the text as such.

The autor is responsible for each meaning and for every common or reasonable association and echoes of his words and phrases. Like in a criminal case: not knowing law is no excuse. And not realizing a poem damaging association is no excuse for an author.

This unwanted association was the least problem with your poem though.

Your logic is very poor this year. Still suffering from the New Year's hangover?

1. The author is also a reader, hence the author's reading also counts.
2. If we disregard 1., the author is a different person from other readers, and thus can not know all the possible ways other readers will interpret the authors poem. Every common or reasonable association? I guess that points the very sharp stick at you for when we read "too much" into your poems in the past -- you should have realised that when you wrote your poetry.

BTW, in superb poems multiple meaning work harmoniously together. It is one of the aspects of integrating a poem. Boleslaw Lesmian went still further. He introduced many naturally sounding neologisms, sometimes only one syllable long, which would associate with different parts of the poem (in addition to contributing to the phrase in which they had appeared), like in music, when a phrase connects with some distant portions of the piece.

blah blah blah neologisms blah blah big words blah blah transmogrify the juxtaposition blah blah I'll compare it to music now because that is clearly a smart thing blah blah blah


In superb critiques the meaning is clear through simplicity, and does not require the critic to try and lend validity to their thoughts by using pompous language.

Now, talking about superb poems and poetry's heights, especially that that "Dr in your fates" TheDR4KE has come here back from his temple, let me mention that when you feel really, really down about one of your poems you can always count on an inspiration coming from glancing at any of his poems. It is truly unbelievable, you'd think it impossible, but any of his poems will leave you feeling wonderful and happy about existence, he manages such an incredible feat. You may check for instance his Heavy Life: Resonance. Yay! -- you see, it's one of the purposes of an open forum to have here everything, and I mean everything, including the Drake's ascii blessing. I like it about Literotica. It is a tolerant place, extremely so.

Regards,

Fixed it for you.

Quack

the D

 

[TheDR4KE]

Hi KM, great to see you.

A rite of passage my left buttcheek.

Lining up for my rite of passage. I'm sure I didn't get it when I first joined.



Quack

the D

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ok, why does everyone hate my poem?

[...] Fixed it for you.

Quack

the D

Pathetic.

 

[TheDR4KE]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ok, why does everyone hate my poem?

...
Particularly funny.

Thanks

Quack,

the D

 

[darkmaas]

This thread kinda pisses me off. Maybe its all the turkey soup I’ve been sucking.

The place has been awash in bad poetry recently. There are many reasons for bad poetry (bad poets, bad hair days, bad brandy....), but there is no excuse for bad manners.

Let us put away the flame throwers for a moment and return to the problem at hand - paganangel and his wretched violin.

I don’t think many people could hate “Stradivarius” in spite of the title of this thread. Even SJ doesn’t hate it. It’s like those lovely posters of big eyed kittens. You wouldn’t want one on your living room wall but it’s hardly worth the effort to mount a serious hate, if your mother-in-law chooses to decorate her home in “nouveau cute”.

If paganangel’s wish was for criticism, he shouldn’t take offense to SJ’s choice of adjectives. Perhaps he would prefer banal or mundane instead of trite. (My fingers are itching to type “lugubrious”, but it sadly doesn’t apply.)

So, my dear paganangel, here is some constructive criticism. In choosing to compare a woman to a violin without being boring, you have taken on a difficult task. But hey, all the easy poems have already been written by a guy called Shakespeare. Give me a reason why I should care about her or the fiddle. Better poets than I have given suggestions above on how this might be accomplished.

Your penance for being rude to poor St. Senna is to write a poem called “Stradivarius Redux” that takes the same theme - woman as musical instrument - and gives me a reason (any reason) to march down and paste a big fat 5 vote it. I promise I will.

Respectfully,

Darkmaas

 

[paganangel]

Re: This board paganangel

is a place where people treat each other with civility. I've been posting here for almost a year and have grown as a writer from being part of this community. In all the time I've spent here--and I'm here a lot--I have never seen someone call another person an asshole. And oh yes I've heard the term and I'm very educated, by the way, but grew up poor hearing plenty worse, so don't bother with the dictionary this time. (I'll happily accept that you were not aware of the f-hole connotation, if you'll accept that I intended the meaning of "glib" as defined by both our dictionaries. I'm tired of these semantics anyway.)

You came here asking why everyone hates your poem. You asked people to be brutal. They mostly were not. People here were kind to you, and you got detailed constructive criticism from some of the best writers on the site. Granted you met our resident curmudgeon who was honest in his opinion and, at worst, no more than what you asked for: brutal.

A few of us tried to tell you, jokingly, that Senna is that way with everyone, so don't take it seriously. We also tried to tell you that he knows his stuff. We did this because we are nice people and we wanted to try to make you comfortable here. Maybe you don't want or need that: fine, but unless you want to be no less sophmoric and confrontational than you accuse Senna of being, you should chill and accept what you came for--"brutal" criticism.

I understand your point about private messages, but you totally misinterpreted Rybka's attempt to offer some discreet advice. In the face of such silly blustering as your response, I might have posted it, too. And private is private, but we don't live by the law of omerta here, either.

Epithets may work on the general board or wherever else you'e been, but here they only make people less inclined to help you.

you obviously haven't been been paying attention.
and who died and left you laurel?

 

[paganangel]

Re: Re: Re: Re: ok, why does everyone hate my poem?

About 90% of the USA population in the past 40 years is in that "gutter".

It doesn't matter that you didn't have this association. The author's reading of his own poem is irrelevant. Only the readers's reading counts, and first of all the text as such.

The autor is responsible for each meaning and for every common or reasonable association and echoes of his words and phrases. Like in a criminal case: not knowing law is no excuse. And not realizing a poem damaging association is no excuse for an author.

This unwanted association was the least problem with your poem though.

BTW, in superb poems multiple meaning work harmoniously together. It is one of the aspects of integrating a poem. Boleslaw Lesmian went still further. He introduced many naturally sounding neologisms, sometimes only one syllable long, which would associate with different parts of the poem (in addition to contributing to the phrase in which they had appeared), like in music, when a phrase connects with some distant portions of the piece.

Now, talking about trite junk and poetry's gutter, especially that that "Dr in your face" TheDR4KE has crawled here back from his hole, let me mention that when you feel really, really down about one of your poems you can always count on a miniscule consolation coming from glancing at any of his poems. It is truly unbelievable, you'd think it impossible, but any of his poems is still way worse than your poem, he manages such an incredible feat. You may check for instance his Heavy Life: Resonance. Ugh! -- you see, it's one of the purposes of an open forum to have here everything, and I mean everything, including Dr in your face's ascii polution. I like it about Literotica. It is a tolerant place, extremely so.

Regards,

see, now was that so hard? thankyou.

 

[paganangel]

Calling someone's poetry "Junk" without explanation as to why it's junk or how to improve it is so not good critique. It's called negative feedback and it's total bullshit. It's cruel, it's vicious, and it has absolutely no redeeming value.

A rite of passage my left buttcheek.

couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[paganangel]

This thread kinda pisses me off. Maybe its all the turkey soup I’ve been sucking.

The place has been awash in bad poetry recently. There are many reasons for bad poetry (bad poets, bad hair days, bad brandy....), but there is no excuse for bad manners.

Let us put away the flame throwers for a moment and return to the problem at hand - paganangel and his wretched violin.

I don’t think many people could hate “Stradivarius” in spite of the title of this thread. Even SJ doesn’t hate it. It’s like those lovely posters of big eyed kittens. You wouldn’t want one on your living room wall but it’s hardly worth the effort to mount a serious hate, if your mother-in-law chooses to decorate her home in “nouveau cute”.

If paganangel’s wish was for criticism, he shouldn’t take offense to SJ’s choice of adjectives. Perhaps he would prefer banal or mundane instead of trite. (My fingers are itching to type “lugubrious”, but it sadly doesn’t apply.)

So, my dear paganangel, here is some constructive criticism. In choosing to compare a woman to a violin without being boring, you have taken on a difficult task. But hey, all the easy poems have already been written by a guy called Shakespeare. Give me a reason why I should care about her or the fiddle. Better poets than I have given suggestions above on how this might be accomplished.

Your penance for being rude to poor St. Senna is to write a poem called “Stradivarius Redux” that takes the same theme - woman as musical instrument - and gives me a reason (any reason) to march down and paste a big fat 5 vote it. I promise I will.

Respectfully,

Darkmaas

thankyou. again, this is the kind of critique i want and need.

one thing though, shakespeare's poetry wasn'teasy...it was just, wel, first. everything since him, is him. he really had a great publicist.

i guess i as just trying to describe watching her play. unfortunatlyit wound up being just musing and not near communacative enough.

 

[Rybka]

...(My fingers are itching to type “lugubrious”, but it sadly doesn’t apply.)...
Respectfully, Darkmaas

Good God! Are you a sub to that crazy Blue squirrel ? Or is your "Rowdy Ted" a lava lamp?

Regards,                       Rybka