On Writing: Foreign languages in an English story

[Wolk]

Most certainly agreed. This is what I ment in my original post in this thread: words new to the reader, be they from a foreign language or the native one, can and should be introduced. However, they should be introduced in reasonable quantities and be sufficiently explained by the circumstances, by being similar to words the reader already knows, or by some other means. It enriches the reader's vocabulary and makes the experience more enjoyable on the whole.

The objection I have is to using foreign words excessively or without proper explaination, especially when the reader would miss crucial information by not understanding them.

 

[evelyn_carroll]

We are agreeing violently

Actually, if you look at my writing on this site, you will see that I am rather parsimonious with foreign words; just enough to suggest what the Immoral Bard calls 'a local habitation and a name' I hope.

Respect
Evelyn

 

[slyc_willie]

Non-English in English

One of my stories (Full Service) included dialogue between English and Spanish speakers, and at one point, one of the characters speaks Spanish to the other. I do this by writing the words in English, but with < > just after and before the quotes. For example:

"<Who the hell do you think you are?>" she yelled in Spanish.

"<I think I'm a guy talking to an idiot,>" I replied calmly

I have seen this device used in both online and hardcopy publications, and it works well. Whenever the reader sees a quote with < > included, they know that the characters are speaking a foreign language, while not being left out on what is being said.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Mlle: You forgot to mention that Burgess also included a glossary at the end of "Clockwork Orange" that was several pages thick. Even so, he did a very horrorshow job with the slang.

I recenty read Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose", set in an Italian monastary in 1312. Great chunks of text are in Latin with no translation. Okay, I'll let him get away with that, but then the very last sentence in the novel, the one that finally explains the name of the book, is in Latin and indecipherable to me. That just seems rude.
---dr.M.

I should start this by saying that in my opinion The Name of the Rose is the finest novel of the twentieth century, in any language. It isn't an east read and it isn't intended to be an easy read. If you do not have very wide learning then there are a lot of references in the novel that you simply will not pick up. Eco expects - demands - something of his readers. I like that. Great literature should be demanding, should stretch you, should be uncomfortable.

Even in less elite work it's reasonable for a writer to expect the audience to be reasonably educated. For example, Dorothy L Sayers does similar things: a critical point in the plot of The Nine Taylors is given in French with no translation. If you read French, you understand it; if you don't, you can find out; and if you can't be bothered to find out, go and read Agatha Christie.

 

[SimonBrooke]

You've seen these stories. Characters are either multilingual or they meet other characters who speak a foreign language. Perhaps the conversation is not being carried out in English despite the fact that this is an English narrative. What to do? I am, of course, talking about language that hasn't crossed over into English as cliche, like cest la vie or carpe diem has. I'm talking about foreign language that a non-speaker would most likely not know, like j’espere.

Strunk and White are pretty adamant about this. Don't use foreign words. Others aren't so immobile on the issue.

One solution is to use a language which is totally incomprehensible to your POV character. For example, this, from a novel I'm currently working on:

/-----
"My lord, do you see the guard across the square?" In the market
square there was a little moonlight. "That is the man who came to my
aid."

Darogan looked. "The guard yonder?" Karae nodded. He called "Ho!
Guard!"

Across the square, the guard looked round sharply, and came over.
"Lord calls?"

Darogan made a weird clicking, hissing sort of sound in his
throat. Kiara looked at him. The soldier replied with a longer, more
complex clicking noise. Darogan laughed.

"Noble stallion, I do not in truth speak your language, beyond the
simplest things"

The soldier shrugged. "Speak common little." He grinned again. "Hear
much."

"I believe I have to thank you." Darogan spoke courteously. "How best
may I return your goodness?"

The soldier nodded to Karae. "Girl. Beat less."
\-----

or again

/-----
"Say it again" Karae pleaded. "Say it slowly."

They were sat around the kitchen table in the house in the Street of
the Hide Merchants, sharing a meal of cheese, fruit, and crackers. The
noon sun shot short shadows to the floor.

The soldier-slave grinned. "tX'oi'v'd".

"Khoivit", tried Karae.

"tX'oi'v'd", said Darogan. "You don't say the syllables, you breath
them. And it isn't 'K'. When you say 'K' your tongue goes back against
your palate. It's 'tX' - your tongue goes forward against your
teeth. tX'oi'v'd."

"Tkoivit... I can't! My mouth doesn't work like that!"

Both men laughed at her. "Comrades say 'Coiremheadh'. Easier?"

"Coiremheadh. Yes", Karae grinned, "I can say that".
\-----

By using another language that the POV character can't even pronounce or distinguish words in I think (hope) I'm able to give a good sense of the exoticism and foreignness of Coiremheadh and his people without either having to fully work out the details of the language or to worry about whether readers can understand it (the language is assumed to be quite like Xhosa) .

 

[Mesachie]

Pleasing whom?

What the diversity of opinion. Which is very good in its own way. Including foreign languange, untranslated, is a way of limiting your readership to a more select few. If that is what you want, then have at it.

I think that untranslated foreign language in a story is crap for the most part. It is a pretention. People that want to indulge in it shouldn't publish publically or expect popular support for it (even Eco). They should print privately and send their work to those that they know will appreciate their richer stew of language.

If the foreign word, phrase, or sentence's meaning becomes obvious by context, then it is not such bit of merde, eh? But if it isn't then either it needs to translated somehow to keep the story moving or it really is just a bit of Scheiße bobbing in story's stream!

Please note that this is just my opinion as a reader. I think that using foreign language in a story is a worthwhile technique for "popular" writing when used appropriately.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Un puex severe, n'est pas?

I think that untranslated foreign language in a story is crap for the most part. It is a pretention. People that want to indulge in it shouldn't publish publically or expect popular support for it (even Eco). They should print privately and send their work to those that they know will appreciate their richer stew of language.

I think you're going ridiculously over the top, here. People with narrow education and limited cultural background aren't going to enjoy Eco for a whole hill of reasons, of which his use of 'foreign' languages is but a minor one (remember that he is, after all, Italian, so English is a 'foreign' language to him). But even if the ill-educated cannot fully appreciate his work, there are millions who can and do, and the idea that the greatest novellist of the twentieth century should apologetically hand out his work in private editions because hoi polloi find him a trifle over the heads is ludicrous. Remember, there are things which are simply much more effectively said in foreign languages: quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

 

[Mesachie]

Not really

I can understand your viewpoint. I have mine. No, I don't think the world is much smaller if we couldn't read Eco. Yes, I know he is Italian. His command of english is fine, his authoring skills are impressive. I have read TNOTR twice, I believe. I am lining up on Foucault's Pendulum in the very near future.

Sorry, I just completely disagree with you about the use of foreign language in a story, about Eco's effectiveness when using such a ploy, and that any one author, save perhaps Shakespeare, is essential to the human endeavor.

I don't mind at all that you see it differently. One of us may be deluded. We can cherish, quietly, our own perception of which one that is.

"tizzum stick papeh mitlite pelton la lang, yaka wawa mesachie yiem"

 

[Lascivious8]

I think the English language can sometimes be foreign in some books. It is fine to be a genius, but to use some obscure word is just arrogant. If the average person has to get a dictionary out, the author has failed in my opinion. If they can imply or explain what the meaning is, that is fine.
I am also working on a story where the lead character goes to a foreign land to escape his normal life. To emphasis how out of his element he is, I want everyone around him to speak a different language. Then I can introduce an interpreter/guide who meets him later on. The interpreter can then explain what other people are saying and the customs as well. I will drop a few foreign lines unexplained but imply the meaning.
Hopeful it comes across as him feeling more at home in this foreign land as he understands it better. Hopefully a few phrases stick in the readers mind long after they finish reading as well.
It also means I would have to do some research and learn part of the language first. Are there English-speaking people on the foreign language sites? Could they possibly assist me?

 

[SimonBrooke]

Language conveys character

I think the English language can sometimes be foreign in some books. It is fine to be a genius, but to use some obscure word is just arrogant. If the average person has to get a dictionary out, the author has failed in my opinion. If they can imply or explain what the meaning is, that is fine.

Look, this is ridiculous. Yes, a large proportion of the population are ill-educated and inarticulate, with the range and flexibility of vocabulary of a pre-pubescent imbecile; but these people are also and increasingly barely literate. They are not the audience for written works.

Language expresses character. Here is a character of mine, holding a conversation:

"Consider Cain and Abel. Whom did they marry?"

"Their sisters?" asked Becks.

"'Women from the surrounding country', according to the text."

"But there can't have been any!"

"Precisely. On the internal logic of the text, either Jaweh must have created wives for them - and it is not stated that he did - or they must have married their sisters. No other conclusion is possible. A child can see the flaw in this narration. And yet the authors felt that such a union was so strongly transgressive that they elided it in this curiously clumsy manner."

"But it wasn't just the Jews who had taboos against incest," said Marco. "Consider Oedipus and Electra."

"Nowhere in the sources is it suggested that Electra had coition with Agamemnon. On the contrary, she was a child when he left to go to war; and on his return was absent from Mycenae. Consequently it is impossible that they could have had an incestuous relationship. The earliest source to state that Oedipus engaged in coition with Jocasta is Sophocles' relatively late narrative. In the earlier accounts Oedipus' sin was patricide, not incest; and even in Sophocles' account patricide is still the principal offence."

"So are you claiming that in classical Greece incest wasn't seen as taboo?"

"I claim nothing at all. I was merely indicating that the Electra and Oedipus narratives do not in themselves provide evidence to support the hypothesis advanced. In any case, whether or not incest was considered prohibited in ancient times should have no bearing on whether we anathematise it now."

"Why not?"

"If there is a rational basis for the taboo against incest per se, it must be seen in the propensity to homozygosis..."

"I'm sorry?" said Becks.

"Inbreeding," said Marco.

"Precisely. You must recall that in the classical period procreation was not merely the inevitable, but also the desired and intended consequence of most heterosexual congress. Sexual liaisons and relationships entered into for either companionable or purely recreational purposes would primarily be homosexual in nature, I believe."

"So was there any taboo or prohibition against homosexual liaisons between close relatives?" asked David.

"Now that is a most interesting question, to which I confess I do not know the answer. I might offer it to my graduate students as a subject for enquiry... No. I do not know. Interesting."

You can immediately pick out what the Professor says, because she speaks a very characteristic English. You can tell she's not a native speaker, because her English is exaggeratedly correct. You can tell she's highly educated, because she uses a lot of complex words. All this is character.

I don't care that the reader doesn't know what 'homozygosis' means. I had to look it up myself, to check it. 'Homozygosis' is a word the Professor would use. By using it, I tell you something about who she is.

 

[Lascivious8]

Easy there big fella. I didn't even take much notice of your previous posts. I don't know if you are the foremost authority on who reads books. If you are then I apologise for my opinions, they were not a personal attack.
I understand that there is an articulate audience out there who like big words and know several languages. In my humble opinion if you reach a larger audience and can bring them into your story then you are successful. If you leave a lot of readers closing the book half way through, you have failed in my opinion.
I agree that a lot of people are ill-educated but that doesn't make them imbeciles. I have an IQ of over 125 but never received a great deal of formal education? Does this mean my type should never learn and be involved in literature?
I think if you are writing in any form, even a textbook you should care about the reader. My whole point was that I believe anything foreign to the reader should be ok as long as the meaning is implied or stated. Maybe a little less confusion? Valid point do you think?
Yes I know you want to correct my grammar. Maybe you can give me some advice. It would be like doing a bit of charity work in the slums. Just kidding, don't take me too seriously.

Look, this is ridiculous. Yes, a large proportion of the population are ill-educated and inarticulate, with the range and flexibility of vocabulary of a pre-pubescent imbecile; but these people are also and increasingly barely literate. They are not the audience for written works.

Language expresses character. Here is a character of mine, holding a conversation:



You can immediately pick out what the Professor says, because she speaks a very characteristic English. You can tell she's not a native speaker, because her English is exaggeratedly correct. You can tell she's highly educated, because she uses a lot of complex words. All this is character.

I don't care that the reader doesn't know what 'homozygosis' means. I had to look it up myself, to check it. 'Homozygosis' is a word the Professor would use. By using it, I tell you something about who she is.

 

[JPMMURPHY]

Language, in dialogue, is just like the shabby old couch, white, fluffy clouds, and cool, clear water running, tantalizingly, over her breasts. It’s (in my humble opinion) an extender of a characters personality, as well as, the rest of the props and sets in the story.

Multi-lingual and multi-cultural is a fact of life. Foreign language (to the READERS point of view) should be self evident in meaning, translated if important, or just hung out there in a snippet with the sole purpose of adding depth.

One of the realities of globalization is that people really do sit around, over their supper table, and carry on conversations in more than one (or even two) languages. Cocktail parties really do host conversations that might, or might not, be in a language an English only speaker understands. That doesn’t mean the English only speaker isn’t included, it just makes for really interesting moments of interaction.

Okay, bash away, I’m a glutton for punishment...

Y’all. (would that be a foreign language????)

 

[cloudy]

Language, in dialogue, is just like the shabby old couch, white, fluffy clouds, and cool, clear water running, tantalizingly, over her breasts. It’s (in my humble opinion) an extender of a characters personality, as well as, the rest of the props and sets in the story.

Multi-lingual and multi-cultural is a fact of life. Foreign language (to the READERS point of view) should be self evident in meaning, translated if important, or just hung out there in a snippet with the sole purpose of adding depth.

Yes.

I've used Creole in one of my stories, simply because the story was set in the Garden District of New Orleans, and the two female protags are both from very old, very distinguished Creole families. I used a mourning song in Creole, and just a couple of words here and there. Every comment I received on my use of the language was positive.

In another story, a character has a very brief conversation in Chicasaw:

She boldly raised her eyes to his, "Chi hohchifo nanta?" she called back, her voice strong and unwavering.

He answered, "Who I am is not important - my message is."

Y’all. (would that be a foreign language????)

Um......no.

 

[OrcHippie]

I personally wouldn't be bothered with foreign languages, either in my own stories or others. I'm fluent in French, English and Spanish (and extremely basic Mandarin), but any other ones wouldn't bother me at all; foreign scripts, such as Chinese, Korean or Arabic would, though, because I don't have a pronunciation key with me and I like to at least think I know how to pronounce the words I'm reading. It's easier to do that then to have the inconvenient fact that, for example, a rural Russian beauty speaks perfect English, and yet has never left her hometown. But that's just me, I like languages.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Here's the way I'm using foreign language in a current project;

"I so crave it, (placeholder for the Ojibwe words I am waiting for)"

"What?" Jamie isn't sure if he heard those liquid syllables aright.

Charlie repeats himself; "Means please... an' you're pretty."

As the passage goes on, Jamie gets used to hearing this incomprehensible language from the guy, but I don't actually use many more actual words. The story is from Jamie's POV, and since he doesn't understand it, why would we?
Later he nags Charlie to find out why the guy babbles in an Indian tongue in bed, which brings up some past history, which sets the stage for a motivation and some action later on.
I also like the idea that he is reticent in English, but what his first lover taught him to say is perfectly filthy. (Cloudy promised me it would be)

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Here's the way I'm using foreign language in a current project;

As the passage goes on, Jamie gets used to hearing this incomprehensible language from the guy, but I don't actually use many more actual words. The story is from Jamie's POV, and since he doesn't understand it, why would we?
Later he nags Charlie to find out why the guy babbles in an Indian tongue in bed, which brings up some past history, which sets the stage for a motivation and some action later on.
I also like the idea that he is reticent in English, but what his first lover taught him to say is perfectly filthy. (Cloudy promised me it would be)

I've tried to write bits of Lakota into Montana Summer....

“I will miss you, Hinhan Gleška you were my tunksila,and my hunka ate. You showed me the Lakota ways, and helped teach me the language. You never tired of my incessant questions.” Will paused, the tears in his eyes burned. “You welcomed a lost boy into your village. You welcomed him into your lodge. I am a better person for having met you.”

Will touched the Spotted Owl’s forehead with his hand. He leaned forward and kissed him gently on the cheek. “I just want you to know that I loved you as much as any boy could love a father. I will look for the day when we can hunt together again. Hoakicipapi Hinhan Gleška.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I've tried to write bits of Lakota into Montana Summer....

“I will miss you, Hinhan Gleška you were my tunksila,and my hunka ate. You showed me the Lakota ways, and helped teach me the language. You never tired of my incessant questions.” Will paused, the tears in his eyes burned. “You welcomed a lost boy into your village. You welcomed him into your lodge. I am a better person for having met you.”

Will touched the Spotted Owl’s forehead with his hand. He leaned forward and kissed him gently on the cheek. “I just want you to know that I loved you as much as any boy could love a father. I will look for the day when we can hunt together again. Hoakicipapi Hinhan Gleška.

yeah, like that! The words are understandable because of the context, and their full emotional content is very readable- more important to the flow of the story than the actual meanings, in your case and mine.

(Still waiting to hear from Rez Girl, arrgh)

 

[Penelope Street]

I've used Creole in one of my stories, simply because the story was set in the Garden District of New Orleans, and the two female protags are both from very old, very distinguished Creole families. I used a mourning song in Creole, and just a couple of words here and there. Every comment I received on my use of the language was positive.

I think I remember that story and it worked for me!

I've used snippets of foreign languages in two posted stories. In one story, a character slips into her native French when she becomes excited. It doesn't so much matter what she says, the point is she's aroused. I used an online translator to generate the foreign language for both stories- so I suspect those who speak French or Italian were probably more confused than those who don't.

Including huge sections of a story that are unintelligible to the target audience seems counter-productive, at best.

I could see how slyc_willie's method would work for dialogue that must be understood.

"<Who the hell do you think you are?>" she yelled in Spanish.

"<I think I'm a guy talking to an idiot,>" I replied calmly

Wouldn't it still work without the brackets, especially is we added something like 'in the same tongue' after 'calmly'?

 

[drksideofthemoon]

yeah, like that! The words are understandable because of the context, and their full emotional content is very readable- more important to the flow of the story than the actual meanings, in your case and mine.

(Still waiting to hear from Rez Girl, arrgh)

Thanks, I use "Lakota Dictionary: Lakota-English / English-Lakota" compiled by Eugene Buechel and Paul Manhart. It has a bit of a grammar lesson in the front. I try not to go overboard, and hope that I don't insult anyone that can actually speak and read the language.

 

[Otto26]

Including huge sections of a story that are unintelligible to the target audience seems counter-productive, at best.

Unless, of course, your target audience likes that sort of thing. I write for me, and I like that sort of thing. But I grew up overseas and deciphering languages I only know a smattering of is an old, familiar habit. I always include a glossary at the end of the story which directly translates any phrase I use. I think the following scene (still first draft) is perfectly intelligible even if you don't know what any of the foreign language words mean.

Robert turned away from the balcony where he had watched the rented car pull out of the village.

"Tell the boys I'm in the mood for hand to hand practice," he said in a clipped voice.

"Mi petegas vi, sinjoro, fiki mi," Sara said.

"Volas sucxi via kacego," Sonia whispered.

"I said..." Robert began angrily.

"Better us, sinjoro," Sara interrupted him in a patient tone of voice, "We'll enjoy your frustrations. You might hurt someone in this mood."

"Ni petas," Sonia continued.

Robert growled in frustration and drew back his hand. Sara and Sonia remained still, waiting for the blow to fall, but it didn't. Forcing every last ounce of air out of his lungs, Robert exhaled and lowered his hand with visible effort.

"Rampuj al mia lito, sklavinoj. Jam nun," he ordered.

"Jes, sinjoro," Sara and Sonia replied.

They both turned and crawled to the bed and up on to it. Robert was upon them a moment later. He flipped Sara onto her stomach and shoved his hand between her thighs, lifting her ass into the air. His free hand fumbled with his fly, pulling his cock out and placing it against Sara's sex. He thrust hard into her despite the fact that she wasn't yet well lubricated and she hissed in pain and bit down on the thin comforter that covered the bed. He pulled out almost all the way and then pushed deeply into her, again and again. She was wet now and pushing back against him each time he pushed into her. Sonia had positioned herself behind Robert, kneeling slightly behind him. One hand unbuckled his pants, loosening them sufficiently to allow her to slide her hand down the crack of his ass and lightly grasp his balls. Carefully she caressed them and pressed her breasts against his back and her lips and tongue against his neck.

"Pli, pli, pli," Sara moaned repeatedly until he reached down and pulled her upright by her braided hair. Then she came, gasping her pleasure and trying to maintain her motions even as she felt her control over her body slipping away.

Robert came then, stimulated by the spasms of her sex and Sonia's fingers kneading his balls. He slammed his hips forward, slapping loudly against Sara's ass and jetted into her.

Sara, breathing deeply, ground her ass against his belly and squeezed with her vaginal muscles. Robert released her hair and placed his hands on her ass, abrubtly pushing her forward and off of his cock. Turning, he pulled away from Sonia and pushed her down onto the bed. He stepped onto the floor and rolled Sonia onto her back; hands upon her legs he pulled her to the edge of the bed and spread her legs wide. She reached down to open her cunt to him and he rammed home into the soft pink wetness of her. He released her legs and ran his hands roughly up her body, squeezing her full breasts.

"Sara, tenu sxia brakoj super sxia kapo," he ordered.

Sonia quickly threw her hands above her head, where Sara grasped the wrists and pulled back. Robert rolled a nipple between his finger and thumb and Sonia gasped, arching her back and pulling her knees back towards her chest. Robert frowned and pinched hard.

Of course, if I'm wrong it's better to find out now, before I submit the story.

 

[Penelope Street]

Including huge sections of a story that are unintelligible to the target audience seems counter-productive, at best.

Unless, of course, your target audience likes that sort of thing. I write for me, and I like that sort of thing. But I grew up overseas and deciphering languages I only know a smattering of is an old, familiar habit. I always include a glossary at the end of the story which directly translates any phrase I use. I think the following scene (still first draft) is perfectly intelligible even if you don't know what any of the foreign language words mean.

Well, needles beneath the fingernails isn't counter productive either, if you like that sort of thing.

Seriously though, if a section of a story is perfectly intelligible even if you don't know what any of the foreign words mean, then it's not a huge section of a story that is unintelligible, is it?

And Sara is still with Robert? She so needs to get a clue!
Let me guess, "Mi petegas vi, sinjoro, fiki mi" doesn't mean "I need some space, like about a thousand miles"

 

[Otto26]

Seriously though, if a section of a story is perfectly intelligible even if you don't know what any of the foreign words mean, then it's not a huge section of a story that is unintelligible, is it?

Touche.

And Sara is still with Robert? She so needs to get a clue!
Let me guess, "Mi petegas vi, sinjoro, fiki mi" doesn't mean "I need some space, like about a thousand miles"

She had that, but she went back to her 'addiction'. Damaged characters are so much more fun to write.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Here's how my little exercise came out;

Note; these are more or less actual words, but they do NOT mean what Charlie claims they do ; they are still placeholders untill i get something more actual)

"Christ almighty, Charlie," he says when he can speak again, and Charlie responds in his incomprehensible lingo, catches the quizzical look, and grins, shakily.

"I said tis ye, Jamie, ye're so..." He goes pink; "I c'd do it over and over w'ye, I rec'n..."

"Fuckable," Jamie supplies, and giggles. Charlie's blush becomes rosier.

"Ye talk mighty profane."

"It's from living on the ship, mate, you get used to it— 'sides, what else c'n you call it? Fucking's fucking." And Jamie squirms against the big body that holds him, remembering just what kind of fucking he'd given, and taken, moments ago.

"Ishichigey," Charlie says.

"An' what's that mean?" Jamie is hypnotised by the Adam's apple adorning the strong neck. He puts his mouth over it, and feels Charlie's voice vibrating on his lips: "What we done."

"Ishichigey means fucking?"

"Reckon so," Charlie admits, and Jamie is thoroughly entertained by the flush that races over his chest.

"You said a lot of that zargon,” he says mischievously. "What else is there?" He winds his fingers into the springing curls, when Charlie tries to turn his head away. How can so randy a creature be this shy? "C'mon, teach me."

"Nagamo ne besho ninoondey minikwey nini awey,” Charlie says through the sweetest grin that Jamie's ever seen.

"Now, tell me what you said," he demands in great glee.

"Nagamo well, that means my prick. An' nini awey that's what I call you, like— "

"What do you call me?" Jamie asks, and Charlie looks a little perplexed.

"Dunno, rightly, 's just th' one you... want to see, more'n anyone..."

"Sweetheart, mate, lover," says Jamie, and he's looking straight at Charlie.

"Yehh...” Charlie says on one of his sighing notes. "An' besho... that's thissere." His hand slides down Jamie's back to the cleft of his buttocks, and strokes the pucker there, making Jamie hiss and tighten his hands momentarily. "Ninoondey minikwey means I'm happy, but more like... " he takes Jamie's hand and places it on his breast, over his strong, steady, thumping heart. "An' that's all what I said then."

"Oh, Charlie." Jamie, still ringing from their recent lovemaking, is overcome with the romanticism of the halting declarations. His thumb strokes over Charlie's face, making Charlie turn into the caress, lashes fluttering, while he mulls these words over. Then the import comes to him, and he chuffs with laughter. "Y' know what you said, mate, you said that you love t' put your cock up my arse and bugger me blind."

Charlie stiffens in prudish shock, and then his grin widens impossibly more. "Naw, that'd be— " and another little spate of words tumbles from his lips. Then he owns Jamie once more, with his arms and hands and his kiss.

and then later;

"Nay, Jamie, don't, for if they saw ye— an' saw me— " Charlie's head emerges from his shirt; "I fear they'd surely know."

"Aye,” Jamie agrees. "They'd know, nini awey." Charlie grins. "Did I say it aright?" Jamie asks, and Charlie mutters; "Close enow."

 

[king_wesley]

I would say foreign languages can be used in the following instances:

1) They are phrases most people know like 'Mon Dieu'.

2) The idea is that it is meant to be unintelligable, like if a character arrives at Tokyo airport and asks somebody for directions they could reply "Sumimasen, Watashi wa Eigo o wakarimasen."

I would say that this usage requires the writer to know the language so that it does read naturally to a reader familiar in given dialect (I doubt my Japanese above qualifies in that respect).

3) The foreigner understands English but cannot speak so dialogue is pretty much explained by the English speaker but this should really only be a very short dialogue.

Basically if the foreign language dialogue is integral to plot or atmosphere then English should probably be used. Then again there are a lot of medical or sci-fi dramas or books which use language I don't understand but they are said in such a way that the meaning is clear.

 

[snake307]

I ran into this problem.

In my story, which isn't posted yet, my hero found himself in France, not speaking French, and joined the Foreign Legion. I had done some research into the Legion at one time, and knew they taught the recruits French, and how they teach it. When the heroine questions him the following conversation takes place in America many years later.

You see La Légion Étrangère is a National Mercenary group, commanded by French Officers, never Legionaries. Legionaries are never allowed over the rank of sergeant, and never allowed to be promoted to Corporal during their first tour.

“You speak French Fluently?” Sherri asked in College French.

“Yes, I speak, and read it at the level of a high school boy, but write at a much lower level.” he replied in French. In English he said “If you like we can do the rest of this in French, but I prefer English.

She nodded, he had understood and spoken like a Frenchman would, not an American schooled in French by some language instructor who had never left the country before.

I did it that way to show two things. A Frenchman speaks French differently than someone who has learned French, say at a University. I learned Spanish in high school, and on the streets of Los Angeles, and the two were not compatable. The native Spanish speakers who learned it abroad didn't speak it like we did in LA. It was painfully apparent when you hear someone speak, if they learned it in the nation in which it's spoken, or if they learned it in school.

American English is readily apparent and different from the British, or the Aussies or Canadians, or any other nation. I for one have tried to say Arse, but I just can't do it without breaking out laughing. It sounds fine with british accent behind it, but we Americans just can't pull it off.