Online Purchasing

[NotHisLady]

i think it entirely appropriate because in either case, the person in question is operating with a salient & fundamental deficit of information. willfulness thereof is the only question that still needs to be ascertained.

The parable of the blind men and the elephant teaches the dangers of assuming knowledge you do not have based on some small information you do have. A wise man does not assume a thing to be the same in all facets merely because of the one face that he has seen.
If I visited a place for the weekend and it rained the entire time then went home convinced that it rained there 365 days a year based on my experience I would be making the error that the parable warns us to avoid.
If, on the other hand I simply refuse to leave my house on days when it's raining and proclaim it to be sunny 365 days a year because I've never been rained on then I'm making the error in judgement you are accusing friend Pmann of making.
These are two vastly different things and understanding the difference between them would go a long way toward understanding the issue at hand.

i don't accept that voting with my wallet isn't a workable solution. you appear to be making the argument that a single person's choices don't matter. i don't accept that conclusion, because if everyone made decisions on that basis, there truly is no hope for change. people want to know that their choices may make a difference. it's my hope that by discussing such things that perhaps some people might be influenced to do the same. that's how movements start: one person does something, and then others think it's a good idea, too.

I am most absolutely not suggesting that one person cannot 'vote with his/her' dollar. The fact that one person can influence other people and that movements start that way is a thing well within my grasp. I never suggested such a thing wasn't possible.
What I suggested was that before embarking on such a 'movement' that you take a moment and look carefully at the likely outcomes. Are they in line with the fundamental problem that started the action?
It's all very well to 'do something' when faced with a situation we find distasteful but only an irresponsible or short sighted person will do something only to make themselves feel better. If an action is taken it should be to create a result. My question was what result would the action have. How would it improve the situation.
If 'doing something' actually makes the situation worse instead of better is it still a good and noble thing or, at that point is it just self serving to the point of being destructive?


There are many ways to influence a retailer as a consumer. Pulling your business is only one. I wager there are as many positive as negative levers a consumer can use.
For example--
In the past year and a half (that's about how long I've been doing any amount of shopping from Amazon) every time I receive a package I send a feedback email. I believe I recall one of those articles mentioning that they were pretty frequently read which makes me happy. Mine are usually answered but I had wondered if it was by some intern in a cube. Other than one pair of boots that arrived brown when I'd ordered black and had to be returned I've been pretty happy across the board with my purchases. I make a point of telling them so--I point out if my items were well packed, obviously handled with care, sent in a timely fashion, etc. I always close by saying I appreciate everyone who took part in making that happen.
A company that knows its consumers value the people who serve them frequently, in turn place a higher value on those people as well. It's a small thing but even small things make a difference.
Speaking as a person in retail I promise you 90% of the feedback they get is negative. Most people simply don't bother unless they want to bitch. Take the time to say 'good job' you might find that by showing that YOU appreciate it the companies will come to appreciate it more. Even if they don't then you've made one person's day and that's a good thing.

 

[NotHisLady]

oh, and...

For what it's worth, my dad worked at Walmart for a few years after his 2nd or 3rd retirement (I've lost count. The man can't sit still.) He was in the Dairy section for a while, then in the bakery about twice that long.
According to him, they don't take any crap--if you screw up you're out the door with out much in the way of second chances. They expect people to work hard, use their brains, and get things done without having to be told half a dozen times or having their hands held. It's true that they favor part time over full time but where he was nearly everyone had that as a second job anyway. They get more than a few retirees too. He finally quit because he got sick of dealing with the public but nearly as I could gather as far as jobs went he'd had better but he'd had worse. I got the feeling his coworkers that were less than half his age were struggling more than he was with those few expectations.
I do know people other than him who work there and it ranges from "just a job" to people who really seem to almost love it (go figure) so I have a hard time with that Evil Empire stuff.

 

[silverwhisper]

rainshine quoth:
it's kind of ironic what you're doing here...

you call pmann "dude" like misogynist's call women "dear." you are revealing much more about your character than pmann's or anyone else's.

everyone else has been very respectful of each other's opinions and discussion, except you. you're just behaving like yet another big-mouthed bully with your "style" here, ed. have you thought about a career at say......amazon?

i call a lot of the male posters here "dude", rainshine. i have done that for literally years. your attempting to read some kind of nefarious meaning into it says a lot more about the way you read me than it does about what i actually write.

as for how i respond to people here: i respond to people and their posts on the basis of what they say. if i think that someone is being a butthead, i'm not gonna say otherwise. pmann's a big boy. if he has a problem with me, he can tell me to fuck off himself.

one more thing: it's no secret that there's 0 risk of us forming a mutual admiration society, rainshine. we don't exactly get along. this is not news to anyone who's been here a while.

but here's the funny thing: i actually like pmann. i have no fucking clue if that sentiment is reciprocated or not--and honestlly, i don't fucking care. i view him as a friend, despite what it may look like. and it's b/c i do that i'm familiar with him as i am. if he was just another person on lit, my responses to him would be quite different in character. and because he obviously is fond of you, i am not exactly super-eager to be a dick to you.

that too may be a surprise to you. my rules of engagement are probably not very clear by dint of my not having been very active here in a long time. nevertheless, that's what they are.

so irrespective of our respective poor opinions of one another: i don't harbor any ill will to you. on the contrary, i actually want good things for you & your life. i've stopped engaging things you post because i don't feel i have anything worthwhile to add...unless you are speaking to me, as you are now.

nothislady quoth:
the parable of the blind men and the elephant teaches the dangers of assuming knowledge you do not have based on some small information you do have.

it may surprise you know that i actually do understand the proverb. where you and i differ is with respect to our views re: its relevance. i believe i have explained my reasons for feeling that it is. as i said to rainshine: i view pmann as a friend. and if i think a friend is not considering all sides of something, i'm gonna say so.

nothislady quoth:
what i suggested was that before embarking on such a 'movement' that you take a moment and look carefully at the likely outcomes. are they in line with the fundamental problem that started the action?

[snip]

my question was what result would the action have. how would it improve the situation. if 'doing something' actually makes the situation worse instead of better is it still a good and noble thing or, at that point is it just self serving to the point of being destructive?

there are many ways to influence a retailer as a consumer. pulling your business is only one. i wager there are as many positive as negative levers a consumer can use.

i've dropped out a good bit of your response for purposes of brevity, although by no means am i ignoring it.

of course you're right: positive feedback can be a useful tool for the consumer. if my posts to date suggest differently, i apologize, that certainly wasn't my intention. that's an issue with how i am expressing myself, and of course, that's on me: it's not like anyone is sitting here with a gun to my head, which i readily acknowledge.

ideally, positive feedback does something to effect positive change in a business. like you. i've almost exclusively had positive experiences in my amazon transactions and especially when dealing with a third parties i'm always interested in providing positive feedback, rating sellers appropriately. in the one instance that i recall where things did not happen as i'd hoped (item shipped by USPS that was never received), i communicated with the seller who took steps to address it, even though it was not their responsibility: i was merely hoping to make them aware of an issue.

but if a business behaves in a way that i think improper, i don't give them my money. amazon's commitment to customer service is proverbial & well-known--but the squabble they're having with hachette suggests that this commitment is secondary to their desire to reshape publishing in their image. as someone who loves books and has worked in publishing in the past, the situation angers me.

my concern with what you're saying here however is that you seem to be arguing that patronizing amazon (or any other business that engages in practices of which we disapprove) should not impact our decision to give them our business. as a consumer, the most clear way i can communicate my lack of satisfaction is with my business. businesses very often don't care about their customer dissatisfaction unless it affects their bottom line.

comcast is the second most-hated company in the US. i interview people who are working for them every. single. day. (i'm a recruiter). but unless it affects their bottom line--and it certainly appears not to have thus far--they have no reason to care. i haven't seen an ad campaign by them committing themselves to improving customer satisfaction. and as long as it doesn't affect the bottom line and people still make them profitable, why should they?

ed

 

[NippleMuncher]

It's kind of ironic what you're doing here...

You call pmann "dude" like misogynists call women "dear." You are revealing much more about your character than pmann's or anyone else's.

Everyone else has been very respectful of each other's opinions and discussion, except you. You're just behaving like yet another big-mouthed bully with your "style" here, ed. Have you thought about a career at say......Amazon?

You know, I take no offense to being called "dude", but when the "dear" comes out . . .

 

[NotHisLady]

it may surprise you know that i actually do understand the proverb. where you and i differ is with respect to our views re: its relevance. i believe i have explained my reasons for feeling that it is. as i said to rainshine: i view pmann as a friend. and if i think a friend is not considering all sides of something, i'm gonna say so.

I suppose we shall have to agree that we have different interpretations of that particular lesson. It is one that is open to interpretation so that isn't surprising. It would be useful whether a person were friend or aquaintance really but I still see it as being misapplied. That falls to my own view of it as it was taught to me.

i've dropped out a good bit of your response for purposes of brevity, although by no means am i ignoring it.

of course you're right: positive feedback can be a useful tool for the consumer. if my posts to date suggest differently, i apologize, that certainly wasn't my intention. that's an issue with how i am expressing myself, and of course, that's on me: it's not like anyone is sitting here with a gun to my head, which i readily acknowledge.

ideally, positive feedback does something to effect positive change in a business. like you. i've almost exclusively had positive experiences in my amazon transactions and especially when dealing with a third parties i'm always interested in providing positive feedback, rating sellers appropriately. in the one instance that i recall where things did not happen as i'd hoped (item shipped by USPS that was never received), i communicated with the seller who took steps to address it, even though it was not their responsibility: i was merely hoping to make them aware of an issue.

but if a business behaves in a way that i think improper, i don't give them my money. amazon's commitment to customer service is proverbial & well-known--but the squabble they're having with hachette suggests that this commitment is secondary to their desire to reshape publishing in their image. as someone who loves books and has worked in publishing in the past, the situation angers me.

my concern with what you're saying here however is that you seem to be arguing that patronizing amazon (or any other business that engages in practices of which we disapprove) should not impact our decision to give them our business. as a consumer, the most clear way i can communicate my lack of satisfaction is with my business. businesses very often don't care about their customer dissatisfaction unless it affects their bottom line.

comcast is the second most-hated company in the US. i interview people who are working for them every. single. day. (i'm a recruiter). but unless it affects their bottom line--and it certainly appears not to have thus far--they have no reason to care. i haven't seen an ad campaign by them committing themselves to improving customer satisfaction. and as long as it doesn't affect the bottom line and people still make them profitable, why should they?

ed

I also didn't say a person should or should not buy from any store that they choose. That is a decision made for as many reasons as there are people.
What I did say was that if you announce that you are NOT GOING TO BUY ANYTHING ANYMORE EVER from one place or another because they don't pay their workers enough or don't give them enough benefits, etc the result of your action may not be to improve the situation that inspired it. Don't kid yourself or anyone that you're doing that for the workers that are being mistreated. It may spark fundamental changes in the long term for some worker somewhere eventually but in the short term the people you saw on the news or read about in some article who were being stiffed by their employer are not going to have it better because that company has a drop in sales.
Whatever action you choose be sure that the results will match the cause you set out to improve. If not then at least be honest about the fact that you're just doing it to feel better about where you spend your money.
Forgive me for putting this bluntly but it's getting late, a lot of times people decide to very visibly NOT shop somewhere and are quite vocal about the reason more to make themselves look and feel good than to really DO anything about whatever gripe it is that they have. It's a pet gripe of mine and I have very little patience with it.
I truly wish people would learn to look for ways to do something that would stand a chance of accomplishing something about the thing they are upset about instead of simply pointing out problems to everyone who walks by or making empty symbolic gestures and calling it taking action.

 

[NotHisLady]

You know, I take no offense to being called "dude", but when the "dear" comes out . . .

Depending on the tone I rather like being called dear. It may be the Southern in me. I've been know to smile at sweetheart, sugar, and darlin' too

Definitely all in the tone--I've met gentlemen who can quite make me blush just by calling me 'my dear'

 

[Lord Pmann]

Can we all agree that pmann is adorable?

 

[Lord Pmann]

That might be pushing it.

*puts on most adorable look*

 

[NightL]

Can we all agree that pmann is adorable?

I avoided this thread like the plague. My opinions I have - so what - no one ever wins in such discourse, enlightenment while offered will not be absorbed - battle it out to the weary end after days - the last to stand is no more than the last to stand. Everyone stumbling and stomping off to their corners (yet again).

But in one simple statement there is a shining k̶n̶o̶b̶ star.

 

[imemkay]

Getting back to NippleMuncher's original question:

What kinds of things do you and your spouse buy online? From fad to useful, hobby to necessity, what kinds of things are you looking for?

One thing that I always have to buy online, because I can not find in a brick & mortar is anything personalized.

We always see things like keychains, water bottles, stickers, pencils, signs for the bedroom doors, etc that have kids names on them in stores. Every time Picasso sees a display like that, she looks, and of course, never finds anything with her name on it. Granted, she has an unusual first name, but we can't even find the shortened version of her name (which is actually fairly common).

 

[Lord Pmann]

That's a good point, anything personalised for the Curly Haired Wonder has to be made. Can never find her name in the shops.

Like monogrammed towels?

 

[Lord Pmann]

More like cute books with her name in them.

Monogrammed books?

 

[bailadora]

I don't know how it is in the States, but I am very lucky to have several grocery stores and I keep a close eye to coupons. I also tend to shop at whole sellers, which end up being way cheaper (Adonis baby!)

Farmer's markets is also wonderful. So are co-ops. When I lived in a area that offered it, I used the basket co-op, where every week I got a basket of fresh, organic vegetables. (Sustainable Table, and Local Harvest). Also, check out your local health food stores and community centres/cafes, especially for bulk foodstuff. You'd be surprised at how much cheaper it can be, plus locally sourced, fair trade and many cases certified organic (or at least environmentally friendly). Usually, there is a small annual fee, but often you get a discount on everything, plus a discount on a lot of other things, as they try to foster a community.

With fruits, veggies, meats, and dairy, it is possible to shop socially consciously but it takes a bit of work to dig out the gems. But the advantage is not only healthier and cheaper foods, but these are also good community centres (plus you could also find a great deals on other products and services as well, and discover a lot of up-and-coming artists).

Thanks for the suggestions Breezy. I will definitely look into those links more in depth.

In the past, I used coupons much more than I currently do. This is for a couple of reasons: back home, many of the locations I shopped would double or even triple the face value of the coupon. And if I could combine that when the item was on sale, it meant even more savings. But stores around here don't do that, so I've stopped fooling with coupons because most of them are for products I either won't use, or for a name brand for which I can just as easily find an acceptable alternative with store brand. Another thing I found is that even when on sale, those name brand items that I might consider buying end up being about what I would pay for the store brand. Thus not translating into any real cost savings for me.

Wholesale clubs are another thing that I've, for the most part, stopped patronizing. On the surface, the savings seem so obvious, but what I've found is that in a wholesale club, it is again, all name brand. And when I've taken the time to break things out into price per unit, it comes out to be more than my current purchasing practices.

Produce is one area where I do splurge a bit. A local farming family owns a small store about five miles from my house, where they sell their produce, plus other locally made specialty items. The quality of their produce is heads above what I can get elsewhere, and it's worth it to me to have fruit and veggies in the house that my kids actually want to eat.

We don't have much in the way of health food stores around here, except Whole Foods, and they are way too expensive. Community centers/cafes? I'm not familiar with this. Can you elaborate?

I avoided this thread like the plague. My opinions I have - so what - no one ever wins in such discourse, enlightenment while offered will not be absorbed - battle it out to the weary end after days - the last to stand is no more than the last to stand. Everyone stumbling and stomping off to their corners (yet again).

This makes me sad to hear, Night. I, for one, would be interested in what you have to say. And respectfully, I disagree with you about enlightenment not being absorbed.

There have been many things that have been debated here, where I have not initially agreed with someone, or even been able to begin to wrap my head around where their line of thinking comes from. But what I've found is that sometimes those discussions plant a seed for food for thought, that might later click with something else I'm either reading or that has been put forth by someone else with whom I'm discussing the same topic. For me, it has lead to a few "Oh, NOW I get it" moments. It might not necessarily totally change my opinion, but I think it leads to better understanding of the other person's perspective.

Not that anyone really cares , but it's discussions like this that initially drew me to and kept me coming back to HT. The silliness, the banter, and the general tomfoolery is all well and good, but my own personal opinion is that the boards are leaning too far in this direction these days. I, for one, MISS these kinds of discussion, and have enjoyed the hell out of the conversation that's taken place. And aside from the disagreement between RS and Ed, no one else has really gotten their feathers ruffled. My perception is that, while heated, the discourse has all been pretty respectful and free of grandstanding. We've a bunch of bright, interesting people who hang their hats here, and I personally wish there was more of this type of discussion happening. But maybe that's just me.

 

[NightL]

This makes me sad to hear, Night. I, for one, would be interested in what you have to say. And respectfully, I disagree with you about enlightenment not being absorbed...

But maybe that's just me.

In this little pocket of our world there is beauty and always a reminder to inhale the wonders of life.

thank you bailadora

 

[bailadora]

You're making me blush, Night.

 

[NippleMuncher]

Depending on the tone I rather like being called dear. It may be the Southern in me. I've been know to smile at sweetheart, sugar, and darlin' too

Definitely all in the tone--I've met gentlemen who can quite make me blush just by calling me 'my dear'

That was in reference to pmann calling me dear, sends chills up my spine every time!

I use "my dear" frequently when chatting with my female friends, as a term of endearment.

 

[Lord Pmann]

You're making me blush, Night.

Oh get a room you two. There is no room for public displays of affection here.



Totally kidding. *hopes you realize the irony*

 

[Lord Pmann]

That was in reference to pmann calling me dear, sends chills up my spine every time!

I use "my dear" frequently when chatting with my female friends, as a term of endearment.

What about the other things you ask for that send chills up your spine?!?!

 

[Emerson40]

All who have posted about the warehouse employee, the monolithic corporations, and related issues have all made some great points, and I think in some instances the discussion has become a little blurred. This may be in part because some are presenting their general opinions and putting forth broad arguments to a point that isn't necessarily at odds with the opinions of other’s, but isn’t specific enough in nature, or dealing with a particular issue that, although covered by the brush-stroke of the wide paintbrush that is the general topic, have separate and specific issues that require the precise work of a sharpened pencil. Whether that is due to the original point not being conveyed clearly, or interpreted and taken differently than intended... who's to say.

There are some separate, although related, issues being discussed here, and it is clear that some of the replies are fueled by personal experience, some positive and some not so much so. I would just like to say thanks to those who have shared their personal experiences and stories. There clearly is some opinion and thoughts put forth that have their basis on what has been presented in the media and articles, and I think these personal anecdotes can help broaden perspectives about the subjects being discussed, help others better understand the position and views of others and the other side of things, as well as help gain a better understanding of all the little things that make up the bigger whole. Again, thanks.

Two more quick things:

The word "fair" is tough to use and react to in these type of discussions, for a couple reasons. Mainly, its definition is very personal in that what one sees as fair, another could easily not see as fair at all, and neither as a matter of course would be wrong. Look at any labour dispute. Both sides presenting what they determine is "fair" for all involved, yet both sides are far apart. While some just look at data and available facts, have no personal or emotional horse in the race, and somewhat objectively determine that “A” is fair, others who are closer to the issues, have personal and firsthand experience with not only the direct issues being discussed, but to those that are related and not always apparent to the outsider looking in, can say that “A” is far from fair, and that “B” is more balanced. Neither are necessarily wrong, or less fair. They just differ on what defines fair.

Fair, as determined by individuals, has a lot to do with perspective and point of view.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/3af73cc8f160f5b072c7239e88457d2f/tumblr_mvevnssXTL1sfmw0oo1_500.jpg


The other thing that seems to be happening, strangely so, is that some issues between a few posters have surfaced. Whether these have been known to those involved and going on in the “background” for a time, or are only now being brought into the open, is not really important. One can only hope that as some things come to light here, some differences can be settled, issues resolved, and we all learn a bit more about and from each other. As mentioned in a posting above, these kind of threads - usually derailments of sorts, granted - are a big part of why a good number of folks post and lurk here. I think it is awesome that folks can engage in intelligent discussion, debate, share ideas and thoughts, and we are all the more richer as a community for it. All this in a forum where a thread or two away on these same boards, some folks are collectively fapping their peni and mouth breathing in sync to an exposed nip-pic of an attention-seeking lass, or discussing the best way to grill bacon-wrapped pineapple. What a wonderful time we live in.

Thanks to all who have posted and contributed to this thread so far. Hat tip to the Masticator de la Nipplage, who has been a good sport about the drifts and derailments his wee Online Purchasing thread has taken.

 

[Lord Pmann]

re: joe example: why? you don't get to dismiss it just cuz you don't get it: show your work. you're an engineer: this isn't exactly a foreign concept for you. and as i'm sure you understand, i think you're completely wrong re: the elephant parable. that particular disagreement is at the heart of why we're disagreeing here i think.

Again, you think I dismiss your example because I don't get it. That's not the case. I truly get it. I just think it's a ridiculous example. Joe works for 90 days and is too stressed to concern himself with insurance? Is Joe a fucking moron? What the hell is wrong with Joe? I have a hard time believing someone with a badass name like Joe could be so fucking stupid. It's just a bad example.

I feel like a lot of the points and examples you make just fall flat. I don't necessarily agree (re: this issue) with firebreeze (except on the level of my awesomeness) or Bailadora. However, their arguments are clear and points well made. Yours tend to just be vague talking points. It's like the Sean Hannity of the left. The examples aren't really good and the points are weak.

I'm not saying that to berate you or be a dick. But apparently we don't "get" each other. I just truly can't imagine that someone in their heads thinks the way you do. I don't understand the logic. Even though I disagree with firebreeze, I totally follow her line of thinking. I feel like a tiger (me) trying to talk to a nutria (you). We just don't speak the same language.

I could be wrong, but it seems as if others struggle to see some of your points as well.

What I think is this... You have a very anti-corporate mentality. You mentioned the bailouts somewhere earlier in this thread. I imagine you probably feel that this mortgage/banking crisis was due entirely to the shitty behaviours of businesses and their practice. I can't say for certain that's the case. And you'll probably say that's not so or whatever.

I just think you and I operate on two totally different levels. I fundamentally disagree with you. However, that's not the issue. The issue that causes a road block is the way you get from point A to point B. It's just different than I can understand and, it seems, that the reverse is true.

With all of that said, I am totally with Bailadora. I enjoy these discussions. It makes the forums fun. I like arguing. (Shuddup Rainshine) Some would say I'm stubborn. (Shuddup Rainshine) But I enjoy the banter and the opinions.

I wish we had more conversations like this. Not to make it like the GB. But I feel that we can all discuss this and have a good argument and it's fun.

I'm thinking of starting a thread on the negative effects of denim vests on society. But I don't want everyone to gang up on a certain Australian. She's docile and timid and wouldn't take well to being told denim vests are for The Brat Pack.

 

[Lord Pmann]

i call a lot of the male posters here "dude", rainshine. i have done that for literally years. your attempting to read some kind of nefarious meaning into it says a lot more about the way you read me than it does about what i actually write.

Rainshine was really talking about the condescension of the way you said it. I've got thick skin (I'm as rugged as the hind dick of a mountain), so I didn't cry myself to sleep. But the context was "You fucking idiot, how can you not get this?" Which is okay. But I'd rather you just call me a fucking idiot.

comcast is the second most-hated company in the US. i interview people who are working for them every. single. day. (i'm a recruiter). but unless it affects their bottom line--and it certainly appears not to have thus far--they have no reason to care. i haven't seen an ad campaign by them committing themselves to improving customer satisfaction. and as long as it doesn't affect the bottom line and people still make them profitable, why should they?

ed

Funny story about Comcast... I went to war with them last year. The great Battle Of Comcast et Pmann. Pmann won, but not without his scars. In the end, I emailed over 100 of the top executives (every chairman, Vice President, CEO, CFO, etc) a 4 page letter- a classy pmann style one. Thanks to Rainshine's suggestion, I cc'd Reddit and Facebook. After I blasted this to all of those bastards, I got a call from someone more than willing to help solve my problem. I now pay less than half of what I should be paying.

If anyone wants a good template for a letter and the emails of one hundred Comcast execs, I am your guy.

 

[Lord Pmann]

Oh! Common ground! I like him too. He's a good guy, a wonderful friend and a great human being. GREAT. If only you knew, or took the time too.

Oh stop. (more please)

I'm a big girl, and I'm pretty certain pmann can handle the fact that not everybody loves his friend as much as he does, but I do appreciate the concern.

Actually, I can't handle this. Everyone should love you!!! But not too much fellas. *squints*