Pain Deliverance vs Sadism

[Kajira Callista]

ahem
I have read the entire Thread and may I ask the following .........

What about the Sadist then enjoys inflicting pain that takes place at an intellectual and emotional level . That is quite content using 'it' as an ongoing modus operandi between actual 'hands on deliverence' of pain. Partnered within a compliant/responsive/service orientated submissive or alternately a submissive with masochistic tendancies/having the ability to endure this form of pain and deriving some pleasure from the ongoing distress ?

I sooooooooo shouldn't look in here when I am working.....oops

i do believe that emotional is included under the term sadist.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

i do believe that emotional is included under the term sadist.

Totally agree KC..........

Nor am I saying that physical deliverance of pain is without varying degrees of emotional / intellectual pain for some. We are all individuals I would be very surprised to hear that there was uniformity of experience. In fact its safe to say from reading opinions on the Board thats quite unlikely.

I do believe however there are nuances enjoyed by some Sadists that are completely devoid of physical hands on expression . Almost say like a tactical game of chess perhaps.

Blushing Bottom asked in her initial post "if there is indeed a difference between Dominants who enjoy the expression of pain deliverance and sadism". I'll admit at first I had some difficulty understanding the question. After reading the posts it seems to me that the term in the case of this Thread 'pain deliverance' alludes to physical punishment.

At one stage I was thinking about using the term 'mind fuck' though I am not sure it covers this , I think perhaps the expression of Sadism I am referring to goes a bit deeper. I am certain within my own experience that there are in fact Sadists that can be sated in their desires to large degree in this manner long before any physical expression takes place.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

What about the Sadist then enjoys inflicting pain that takes place at an intellectual and emotional level. That is quite content using 'it' as an ongoing modus operandi between actual 'hands on deliverence' of pain.

Sounds like my kinda people. The board has mentioned mindfucks before, and what you've described certainly fits in at that level. Now, twist in the wind a little further. Find that chink and exploit it. Show your partner the abyss. Get him/her writhing in agony/pleasure/humiliation all at the same time. The cream that rises to the top is the stunned look on the face and sound of your partner's voice in a barely audible whisper that says "i can't believe i just did that."

Ambrosia is the realization you can get them to do it again.

 

[DVS]

DVS stated that...but there is a difference between a true sadist and one who participates as one in a BDSM scene. They both enjoy inflicting pain for sexual stimulation but the true sadist will go much farther into the extreme than the BDSM version will...even to the severe mutilation and/or death of his victim.

DVS I beg to disagree...

I quickly went to each of the websites you posted and no-where did I find any reference to a true-sadist mutilating and/or killing his victim. Where is the pleasure when the "sadist" has killed his victim, since he is no longer getting the desired response from his prey.

I can only conclude that you were referring to instances of "sexual homicide" with evidence of torture... even then the individual would not be classified as a sadist but a "criminal psychopath" with sadistic tendencies... coupled with an antisocial personality disorder. I could also add one or two more pathologies to that list.

The extreme aspects of a sadist's desires may cause illegal practices, but he is still a sadist. The desire for more and more sexual gratification can cause a sadist to inflict more and more pain on his victim, to the point of mutilation and even death. It's the sexual need to be satisfied that is driving him...the resulting death of his victim is simply a bi-product.

You are correct, he is no longer getting the desired response from his victim. And, I know someone playing in a scene would not go that far to satisfy his desires. But, the true sadist has no regard for his victim's welfare.

Some people may engage in sadistic acts with consenting partners for many years without ever actually injuring anyone. Other sadists may need to increase the severity over time. These sadists may eventually seriously injure or kill someone.

Sadists dare to mix love with cruelty. The practice was recognized as a sexual perversion by Krafft-Ebing in 1898 consisting of strong impulses to coitus, coupled with prepatory acts of maltreatment, even murder (necrophilia, then called "lustmurder") which occurs primarily because of an inability to be satisfied with coitus. Most sadists like torture more than they like sex, and it is customary to refer to the three D's of sadism in this regard -- Dread, Dependency, and Degradation -- or in other words, the desire to create fear in the victim, make the victim completely helpless (dependent on the sadist), and humiliate the victim.

Sexual sadists who come into contact with law enforcement will tend to use certain over-the-counter tools, such as vice-grips, screwdrivers, etc., and will keep such devices in a common tool box. There will usually be post-mortem evidence of genital mutilation and/or evisceration. Sexual sadists who do not come into contact with law enforcement will tend to use custom-made, store-bought tools.

Behavior at the time of the offense will often involve forcing the victim to crawl or keeping the victim in a cage. Other activities that may occur include: restraint, blindfolding, paddling, spanking, whipping, pinching, beating, burning, electrical shocks, impaling, rape, cutting, stabbing, strangulation, torture, mutilation, and killing.

One of the signature aspects of sadism is anger, but this should be at least as evident as sexual gratification. The intention is to hurt, degrade, defile, or destroy the victim. Sexuality and power are accompanied by anger in the service of sexual gratification. By contrast, an anger-retaliatory rapist is just interested in anger, not so much sexual gratification. However, for a sadist, the aggression is eroticized. They take pleasure in the torment, anguish, distress, helplessness, and suffering of their victims.

It's important to note the difference here between a sadist and a psychopath. A psychopath will usually choose victims that are closer to them in terms of age, appearance, and occupation. They will then expect these people to love them, and a psychopath loves to hurt the ones who love him. A sadist, by contrast, typically chooses victims who are different from him in terms of age, appearance, and occupation. They want to symbolically destroy those groups of people, almost like a missionary serial killer. It's sometimes said that a psychopath is both sadist and masochist. A sadist is never a masochist. Psychopaths ignore their victim's suffering. Sadists relish their victim's suffering. People who experiment and go both ways with Bondage & Discipline (B & D) or Sado-Masochism (S & M) are probably not sadists, nor are they psychopaths. Harmless sex play is covered under fetishism.

 

[Caitlynne]

Sounds like my kinda people. The board has mentioned mindfucks before, and what you've described certainly fits in at that level. Now, twist in the wind a little further. Find that chink and exploit it. Show your partner the abyss. Get him/her writhing in agony/pleasure/humiliation all at the same time. The cream that rises to the top is the stunned look on the face and sound of your partner's voice in a barely audible whisper that says "i can't believe i just did that."

Ambrosia is the realization you can get them to do it again.

*sigh* This is true from the other side too. The realization that you would do it again for him. That recognition is a moment of pure submissive ecstasy.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Yes, I do believe we are getting where I want to be. The physical aspect of pain is only the tip of the iceberg. Being myself more of a cerebral kind of gal I understand that well. I can tolorate a vast amount of physical pain but a mental mind fuck, if delivered with finesse and at the correct moment, can bring me to my knees with tears in my eyes, and believe me I rarely cry.

Just a couple of short weeks ago I was whipped severly for reasons I'll not discuss here but let it suffice to say I carried the results of that whipping for nearly 3 weeks. I know there are those of you who may think thes excessive and think the Dom a "true sadist" but let me say to those who may judge that I asked for the severity when he asked if I had had enough while weilding a cane and I, so into the sound of it wooshing through the air said "no."

When finished with his handiwork I was walked to a mirror and directed to look at my battered bottom. I was shocked by what I saw and amazed that I was able to stand in position and make almost no sound as I was thrashed so. Not only that but I obviously enjoyed it as I was more than slightly aroused. But there were no tears, no begging for cesseation, no regrets.

But later the next day while engaged again with him in a D/s mode he did something to me I'll not divulge but the act immediately brought me to my knees sobbing. The act was purely a mental mind fuck and he admitted doing it to show me he could reduce me to a level of submission I never dreamed of. And yes AA I did say to him "I don't believe you just did that to me" and when he said " yes and I'll do it again" my only yesponse was "Yes Sir."

Now we discuss in detail every session afterward and when I pouted a little and complained about the condition of my bottom 3 days after the whipping he chuckled and said "You make me out to be some sort of sadist or something." It was that comment which caused me to wonder if there was a difference between the Dom and rthe Sadist as asked. He says he is not a sadist and only gives me what I want and what he thinks I need. I asked him what if any pleasure he derives from the expression of pain and he responded "it is not delivering the pain which excites me but the knowledge that you submit to it." I'm sorry to say I don't believe him. I've seen the look on his face when he whips me or pinches the clamps on my nipples. I've heard his breath pull sharply across his teeth when he runs his hand over my welted bottom he just used his cane on. He enjoys the hell out of it. Leaving me thinking there may be no difference, merely degrees as mentioned as I know that this Dom is not one for lying but doesn't realize there is no difference.

Thank-you everyone who posted here. I really do seek enlightenment when I pose such questions.

*sigh* This is true from the other side too. The realization that you would do it again for him. That recognition is a moment of pure submissive ecstasy.

 

[cati]

Yep there are those as well...smiles

 

[CharleyH]

I have wondered several times if there is indeed a difference between Dominants who enjoy the expression of pain deliverance and sadism. There have been those who tell me there is a major difference but none of the explainations regarding the differences had enlightened me.

So I wonder in my ignorance if there are those of you out there who believe there is a difference and can explain it to me.

Thank-you for any efforts made.

Simply stated: an expression of pain is cordial, respectful and safe - sane and consensual. Sadism is not. Sadism is disrespectful to any masochist because quite frankly, a sadist does not want someone to enjoy their pleasure in the first place. They want to enjoy theirs.

And that's it in a brief nut shell.

 

[CharleyH]

i do believe that emotional is included under the term sadist.

Challenge: what part of sadism denotes anything emotional?

 

[Kajira Callista]

Challenge: what part of sadism denotes anything emotional?

pain can be very emotional for some...dont you agree?

 

[cati]

Ahh DVS I knew you would mention the "sexual sadist"

In my opinion that is unfortunate term coined by the law enforcement officials et. al. I still disagree with you. The information you have cited defines a sexual psychopath with sadistic tendencies. I don't give a hoot what the "so called" experts say.

 

[cati]

I do agree with what Rebecca stated in her AHEM post as well as KC's...
in that emotions do have alot to do with sadism. But I will think a bit more on that subject as well.
A "mindfuck" for me, entails a bit more than what AA has described.

 

[High-Tied]

A "mindfuck" for me, entails a bit more than what AA has described.

Such as dangling a carrot?

 

[AngelicAssassin]

A "mindfuck" for me, entails a bit more than what AA has described.

It can, and i think Etoile described one with her daddy that left Etoile shaken not stirred for quite a while. As long as you're (general you) ready to deal with the consequences you can take a mindfuck as far as you wish. As for the quibbling concerning what constitutes a sadist, i prefer the general definition here: sadist. Despite the running joke,

M: Hurt me.

S: No.

i think folks get their knickers twisted over how the person on the receiving end feels. Whether the receiver bears the pain as a non-masochist, or bawls through multiple orgasms as a total painslut makes no difference. The sadist derives pleasure through the application of physical and/or mental/emotional cruelty.

 

[cati]

For anyone interested. I found a site that explains my postion more fully.

http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/serialkillers/18.htm

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Pain deliverance taken to the extreme...cruelty?

Perhaps so long as one remembers that a little pain is necessary otherwise we becone complacient and unfocused. Lives become chaos...a little more pain can be enlightening and a lot more, sensational.

Whether the receiver bears the pain as a non-masochist, or bawls through multiple orgasms as a total painslut makes no difference. The sadist derives pleasure through the application of physical and/or mental/emotional cruelty.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Context of Non Physical Displays of Sadism

Its my opinion that it pays to remember that without some form of compliance from the submissive/slave/consensual partner the Sadist can fail to exist at times. Whether there is any inherent care on the Sadists part or indifference for that matter to the pyl can I believe become irrelevent. Sadism applied is only as good as the pyl that makes themself available for it to occur. So would that in fact then mean the Sadist is oblidged by desire to care to some degree if only for the opportunity to perpetuate in the first instance ?

A note on degrees of "tweaked mind fuck" . Once again the outcome of pain deliverence/emotional/intellectual/combined is once again in the court of how receptive/sensitive the pyl concerned is. Not to say that a less aggressive approach equals a weak pyl for that matter. Degrees of sensitivity of perception also can come into play.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

For anyone interested. I found a site that explains my postion more fully.

http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/serialkillers/18.htm

Thanks cati for the link and yes I am interested ALWAYS. I had a brief look at the link and I want to give the reading 100% of my attention. There will be peace and quiet here in a few hours and I look forward to doing so then

 

[DVS]

For anyone interested. I found a site that explains my postion more fully.

http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/serialkillers/18.htm

Cati, I thought you shared KC's belief that emotion plays a large part in the mindset of a sadist, where I do not believe this is so. I feel any emotional feelings would be only on the part of the victim.

Keep in mind I am talking about the true sadist, and not someone who will play sadist in a BDSM scene with his partner. While I do believe they share some sadistic traits, as I feel I do, I don't feel they (nor am I) are "true" or "pure" sadists.

Again, I feel a true sadist will have no regard for his victim, but only enjoys it when they feel the pain he inflicts. The sadist enjoys the infilction of pain and the torment and anquish it causes to his victim. It is said a sadist could not enjoy beating a dead body, because the dead body can not feel pain.

True, the SEXUAL sadist might have an imotional connection within himself because his purpose for inflicting pain has a sexual connection. But, it is small in relation to his deisre to inflict pain. And, because of this, it would be impossible for him to have an emotional relationship with his victim.

The true saidst couldn't enjoy a session with limits, safewords, or any of the SS&C boundaries that are necessary in a BDSM relationship. In fact, his imotional relationship is with himself while he inflicts pain on another. He must have complete and total control in his existance...never caring about the welfare of another and thus could not be trusted to follow safety guidelines.

In comparison, the BDSM sadist will have many of these traits, but must adhere to SS&C guidelines, where concerns for the welfare of his "victim" are a necessary limit to his sadistic desires. Because he must live in society and relate to other humans in social and sexual relations, he must follow the limits society puts upon him.

Although he must follow these limits, he often seeks out the more masochistic partners who have few limits, if any, so he may closer satisfy his sadistic pleasures. Even though the BDSM sadist has very similar traits to the pure sadist, the difference is his connection with society and a possible emotional relationship with a masochistic sexual partner. These two extreme personalities share a similar desire and feed a similar need. It's a unique partnership where the desire to inflict pain meets the desire to receive pain.

We will sometimes hear of women being killed in "sadistic" ways, because the true sadist exists in our society.. And, because he exists, there will always be the chance he will take on the role of the BDSM sadist in his desire for yet another victim to satisfy his ever increasing sadistic needs.

An unsuspecting submissive will be his next victim. Sadly, she trusts him when he says he will adhere to her sexual limits and safewords, only to become a statistic of the true sadist in his search for satisfaction.

 

[cati]

DVS... I agreed with Callista in so far as the emotions are those experienced by the masochistic bottom during a BDSM scene. In BDSM play the "true sadist" as you call him, knows what he is capable of, people know what he/she is capable of doing to them, and as far as I know, choose their play partners selectively, ie. the "true painslut". But here I may be wrong.

Again, the "physical" sadist acts out of purely selfish desires and becomes sexually aroused vis a vis the infliction of pain. The pain he inflicts need not be of a sexual nature, but his sexual "arousal" is paramount.
I believe that a sadist is capable of inflicting mental and emotional pain as well. Should we then call them "cerebral" sadists?

I think I am a bit confused by the term "true" sadist. You mean the "pure" sadist to be an individual who suffers from no other disorder or pathology?

A sadist is a sadist is a sadist. A sadist by any other name still carries the same underlying "paraphilia which defines his activity".

The mistake is made by those who wish to colour him (the sadist) in various shades of grey to explain away the activities carried out by sexual serial killers, lust murderers and any other sexual deviant who might fit "the bill".

"Sadist" is not an umbrella term to be used to encompass all types of sexually based violent crime.

I think that was my point, it just takes me a while to spell it out.
DVS

 

[DVS]

DVS... I agreed with Callista in so far as the emotions are those experienced by the masochistic bottom during a BDSM scene. In BDSM play the "true sadist" as you call him, knows what he is capable of, people know what he/she is capable of doing to them, and as far as I know, choose their play partners selectively, ie. the "true painslut". But here I may be wrong.

Again, the "physical" sadist acts out of purely selfish desires and becomes sexually aroused vis a vis the infliction of pain. The pain he inflicts need not be of a sexual nature, but his sexual "arousal" is paramount.
I believe that a sadist is capable of inflicting mental and emotional pain as well. Should we then call them "cerebral" sadists?

I think I am a bit confused by the term "true" sadist. You mean the "pure" sadist to be an individual who suffers from no other disorder or pathology?

A sadist is a sadist is a sadist. A sadist by any other name still carries the same underlying "paraphilia which defines his activity".

The mistake is made by those who wish to colour him (the sadist) in various shades of grey to explain away the activities carried out by sexual serial killers, lust murderers and any other sexual deviant who might fit "the bill".

"Sadist" is not an umbrella term to be used to encompass all types of sexually based violent crime.

I think that was my point, it just takes me a while to spell it out.
DVS

I agree with you in many ways, here. Even the so called experts have a problem with who is a sadist and who isn't. And, when I say pure sadist or true sadist, I'm talking about someone who can't or won't socialize with others, purely because he is what he is. If he does interact with society, he's playing a role, and not being himself, because a true sadist has no caring for others.

He only exists for his own urges and because those urges are so extreme, he is limited to no relationships at all, or only short lived encounters where he happens to meet someone like him. I don't see the true sadist as being very social at all, because he knows he would be an outcast to most of society.

When I say BDSM sadist, I consider them to be interacting in society, living with others and having relationships. But, I also feel there are some of these BDSM sadists that are closer to the true sadist and either just go through the motions of being a member of society because he must, or even has a second, secret life where he can be who he really is. Society can be very unforgiving to someone that's different. In the eyes of many vanilla people a sadist is a very sick indivicual. You couldn't begin to get them to understand that there are women out there who enjoy being treated that way...of course they are also sick.

I feel I could be more sadistic with a woman who wished me to be. But, I think I've been almost endoctrinated away from being too sadistic, because the few women I meet aren't masochistic. And, even being how I am, I'm sure I've scared more than one woman off. Yes, I'm aware of this...and although I don't feel like one, I'm sure there are BDSM sadists out there who feel like an outcast, or someone who isn't really understood for who they really are...almost like a gay person who fears coming out of the closet.

I do think there are variants of sadists, but I also know some sickos are labeled sadist just because a vanilla society doesn't understand.

A sadist enjoys inflicting pain and that isn't seen by most of society as a healthy mental mind.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

I'm talking about someone who can't or won't socialize with others, purely because he is what he is. If he does interact with society, he's playing a role, and not being himself, because a true sadist has no caring for others.

He only exists for his own urges and because those urges are so extreme, he is limited to no relationships at all, or only short lived encounters where he happens to meet someone like him. I don't see the true sadist as being very social at all, because he knows he would be an outcast to most of society.

Whoa pardner, what you're describing now is a sociopath, click me.

and their lack of empathy when others are suffering.

 

[DVS]

Whoa pardner, what you're describing now is a sociopath, click me.

Well, yes and no. It depends on the type of sociopath. Some have traits like a sadist and some don't. Psychopaths are the same way. Many are very similar to each other. Well, I mean they have very similar traits.

I don't mean all sadists are sociopaths or phychopaths. But, some are. We could get pretty deep in this, you know. And, depending on what the experts say, and unfortunately, depending on which of those experts you listen to, all of these variants can seem pretty dicey.

I think your link references the common sociopath, which is the most common subtype. I'm talking about the pure sadist who is not affected by any other abnormalty, and he is kind of close to the agressive sociopath.

 

[cati]

Sorry double post.

 

[cati]

I'm sorry guys to keep on harping on this.

DVS I don't know where you are getting your information from. If it is from reading articles on the web I sincerely believe you are misunderstanding what you are reading.
If what you are posting here are your own interpretations, then your perceptions are distorted and simply wrong.

Not only are you describing a somewhat antisocial personality as AA stated in his earlier post, but somewhere along the line you are incorporating traits of the "schizoid" personality.

I like you and mean no disrespect, but you just can't keep posting material that in my opinion, is pure nonsense.

Furthermore: You said,

When I say pure sadist or true sadist, I'm talking about someone who can't or won't socialize with others, purely because he is what he is. If he does interact with society, he's playing a role, and not being himself, because a true sadist has no caring for others.

So what you are saying is that de Sade was an unsociable guy who did not mix with the rest of society. If you know anything about the man and his life it was evident he was not "playing a role" and was truly himself at all times.