Pain Deliverance vs Sadism

[DVS]

I'm sorry guys to keep on harping on this.

DVS I don't know where you are getting your information from. If it is from reading articles on the web I sincerely believe you are misunderstanding what you are reading.
If what you are posting here are your own interpretations, then your perceptions are distorted and simply wrong.

Not only are you describing a somewhat antisocial personality as AA stated in his earlier post, but somewhere along the line you are incorporating traits of the "schizoid" personality.

I like you and mean no disrespect, but you just can't keep posting material that in my opinion, is pure nonsense.

Furthermore: You said,

When I say pure sadist or true sadist, I'm talking about someone who can't or won't socialize with others, purely because he is what he is. If he does interact with society, he's playing a role, and not being himself, because a true sadist has no caring for others.

So what you are saying is that de Sade was an unsociable guy who did not mix with the rest of society. If you know anything about the man and his life it was evident he was not "playing a role" and was truly himself at all times.

Well, we're obviously not talking about the same thing or somehow not making a connection, in the process. I think it's time to just drop it and be done with it. Sounds like a plan to me.

 

[Recidiva]

After reading this thread, pardon me if I missed a nuance somewhere and I'm repeating earlier viewpoints, here's my input.

I think the difference is whether pain is the means or the end.

A good partner will deliver pain if needed. This isn't just D/s, this is even in vanilla relationships. Not if wanted, but if needed, for some reason, which the pain will reveal. It's a means to an end. It doesn't have to be passionate or sexual. Of course it can be, but it doesn't have to be. It's a tool. Like a mom spanking a child, sometimes it might be required based on the mom or the child...if the mother thinks spanking the kid will steer them away from bad behavior and reinforce good, even if she hates doing it, she'll spank her kid "in hope" of a learning process. It's done to deter bad behavior and steer them toward better courses of action. The kid might hate it, might resent it, and it might actually reinforce the bad behavior in rebellion, so it's not a definite solution. It often creates fear and in this case the fear's supposed to act like a fence keeping the person away from the behavior because of the painful consequence. But if the pain never works, a good parent/partner/teacher, will move along to some other means...reward, negotiation, something else, if the pain has a negative effect instead of positive.

Sadism has pain as the end in itself. There's no reason. It's just there for its own sake. It can be cloaked in any number of justifications, but all paths will lead this way for a sadist.

Pain can fulfil many, many needs. There's an old Chinese proverb "Beat your child every day, if you don't know why, the child does."

There are many people that feel cleansed from pain and feel they've accomplished something. Even if it's not anything other than a ritual, and the pain doesn't create any balance other than giving a burden to, or taking a burden away, from a person, it's a universal solvent. It's transforming and transmuting. Whatever you're feeling will be replaced by the pain, which means the pain will have power over what might be troubling you. Your troubles or lack of troubles can be replaced by something more real, something more imminent, something internal that you can focus on acknowledging or denying. It blots out the internal horizon and there's nothing but itself and the person in pain's reaction to it, which can vary immensely from horror to ecstasy. Depends on your brain, choices, and nervous system.

Even a person who doesn't enjoy pain will use it if required, at least once, if it's seen to be a reasonable solution to a problem. Having a partner (or a parent or a teacher) who backs away from pain is not necessarily a good thing. How would you learn if you don't respond to other, gentler means of correction or perception?

Check closely how pain is used. If the pain inflicter has a bunch of tools, uses them expertly, and pain is one of them among equals (insight, patience, pleasure, honesty, strength, vulnerability, tenderness, intimacy) great. If, however, they have one tool, a pain hammer, that they're just going to slam down in all situations, then that's a fixation for the wielder, and they're best suited with someone who is fixated on being wielded upon.

There's an exchange taking place, and they don't always mesh. A sadist might just inflict pain on the willing because they're, well, willing. No court dates. A submissive has their own reasons for pain which they may never be able to articulate or understand, especially if a complicated issue is given a simple and wrong reason by both. They'll think they understand it, so they'll just submit to it without resolution of any issue attached to them. No thought. No change. When a partnership isn't there to explore issues, but to embody one, there won't be any progress and very little intimacy, only a dramatization of the pain principle. Since neither understand either why they inflict or like to be inflicted upon, they won't get to use any other of the tools together unless they understand the first one that brought them together.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Damn...Diva I missed you.

After reading this thread, pardon me if I missed a nuance somewhere and I'm repeating earlier viewpoints, here's my input.

I think the difference is whether pain is the means or the end.

A good partner will deliver pain if needed. This isn't just D/s, this is even in vanilla relationships. Not if wanted, but if needed, for some reason, which the pain will reveal. It's a means to an end. It doesn't have to be passionate or sexual. Of course it can be, but it doesn't have to be. It's a tool. Like a mom spanking a child, sometimes it might be required based on the mom or the child...if the mother thinks spanking the kid will steer them away from bad behavior and reinforce good, even if she hates doing it, she'll spank her kid "in hope" of a learning process. It's done to deter bad behavior and steer them toward better courses of action. The kid might hate it, might resent it, and it might actually reinforce the bad behavior in rebellion, so it's not a definite solution. It often creates fear and in this case the fear's supposed to act like a fence keeping the person away from the behavior because of the painful consequence. But if the pain never works, a good parent/partner/teacher, will move along to some other means...reward, negotiation, something else, if the pain has a negative effect instead of positive.

Sadism has pain as the end in itself. There's no reason. It's just there for its own sake. It can be cloaked in any number of justifications, but all paths will lead this way for a sadist.

Pain can fulfil many, many needs. There's an old Chinese proverb "Beat your child every day, if you don't know why, the child does."

There are many people that feel cleansed from pain and feel they've accomplished something. Even if it's not anything other than a ritual, and the pain doesn't create any balance other than giving a burden to, or taking a burden away, from a person, it's a universal solvent. It's transforming and transmuting. Whatever you're feeling will be replaced by the pain, which means the pain will have power over what might be troubling you. Your troubles or lack of troubles can be replaced by something more real, something more imminent, something internal that you can focus on acknowledging or denying. It blots out the internal horizon and there's nothing but itself and the person in pain's reaction to it, which can vary immensely from horror to ecstasy. Depends on your brain, choices, and nervous system.

Even a person who doesn't enjoy pain will use it if required, at least once, if it's seen to be a reasonable solution to a problem. Having a partner (or a parent or a teacher) who backs away from pain is not necessarily a good thing. How would you learn if you don't respond to other, gentler means of correction or perception?

Check closely how pain is used. If the pain inflicter has a bunch of tools, uses them expertly, and pain is one of them among equals (insight, patience, pleasure, honesty, strength, vulnerability, tenderness, intimacy) great. If, however, they have one tool, a pain hammer, that they're just going to slam down in all situations, then that's a fixation for the wielder, and they're best suited with someone who is fixated on being wielded upon.

There's an exchange taking place, and they don't always mesh. A sadist might just inflict pain on the willing because they're, well, willing. No court dates. A submissive has their own reasons for pain which they may never be able to articulate or understand, especially if a complicated issue is given a simple and wrong reason by both. They'll think they understand it, so they'll just submit to it without resolution of any issue attached to them. No thought. No change. When a partnership isn't there to explore issues, but to embody one, there won't be any progress and very little intimacy, only a dramatization of the pain principle. Since neither understand either why they inflict or like to be inflicted upon, they won't get to use any other of the tools together unless they understand the first one that brought them together.

 

[Recidiva]

Damn...Diva I missed you.

Yaaay! Missed you too!

 

[cati]

Just perfect.... thanks.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Another interesting thread which some might like to add their thoughts to.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

Wowsers.. I can't believe I missed this the first time around.

I'm a "BDSM sadist" - I enjoy it when my partners enjoy the pain I inflict.

I'm a "pure sadist" - Because I really don't give a rats ass if they like the pain I inflict. All I want and need is their consent. If they enjoy it it just means I can play that much harder before I have to stop.

I'm not a sociopath, however. I ENJOY being free to do what I want and so I only select willing victi... volunteers. I do not want to spend time in a small confined space with a 6'6" 280 lb gorilla named "Tiny" who IS a sociopath. I don't inflict great bodily injury or death on my victi... er.. uhhh volunteers, but it is not because I have any great care or concern for their happiness or well being.

I don't do it because I want to remain free to continue inflicting pain on others. The more pain I can inflict, the better I like it. Sex is a pleasant release but cutting someone and watching their blood flow... OMG, now THAT is a power rush...

I'm a "nice sadist" because it ensures me a constant supply of repeat customers and the reputation that proceeds me allows me a steady supply of new customers if I want them. Did I mention that I'm a LAZY sadist. Why stalk my prey? By being "nice" they walk right up to me and step on the cross or lay across the bench or sit in my lap...

 

[AvaAdore]

How about this for sadism? The PYL isn't inflicting pain without a care for what the pyl is feeling - instead, they go out of the way to do things the pyl specifically doesn't like.

For example, the pyl hates anal sex. It's not a hard limit, but the pyl just hates it. It fuels the PYL's desire to do it, just to make the pyl uncomfortable for the PYL's sexual satisfaction. And if the pyl liked anal sex, the PYL wouldn't want to do it.

I think that is sadism, as compared to "deliverance of pain".

(Sorry for the heavily overused pyl/PYL - I didn't want to be ambiguous)

 

[catalina_francisco]

How about this for sadism? The PYL isn't inflicting pain without a care for what the pyl is feeling - instead, they go out of the way to do things the pyl specifically doesn't like.

For example, the pyl hates anal sex. It's not a hard limit, but the pyl just hates it. It fuels the PYL's desire to do it, just to make the pyl uncomfortable for the PYL's sexual satisfaction. And if the pyl liked anal sex, the PYL wouldn't want to do it.

I think that is sadism, as compared to "deliverance of pain".

(Sorry for the heavily overused pyl/PYL - I didn't want to be ambiguous)

LOL, this is F's style on a daily basis...I get it done in a way which appeals to me on a rare special occasion as a reward.

Catalina