Peter Joseph's Zeitgeist

[Mac98]

never mind.
if i say anything or even continue to read these posts i'm just going to get annoyed.

Sorry, I personally find it interesting to hear other people's opinions on the world...

 

[sugaredwalls]

Sorry, I personally find it interesting to hear other people's opinions on the world...

Kudos, this is about the best thread going in this forum!

 

[sugaredwalls]

Sorry, I didn't think the NYT, 7/15/1009 was a link... my bad. But I would still like to know what studies or experiments they conducted that brought them to this conclusion... it'd be interesting to know...

But say I accept defeat on this one... could we not say, still, that perhaps violence has just been replaced with corruption and disregard to other human lives. For instance, instead of the canadian government (or US for that matter) going out and killing all aboriginals, they take away every liberty and all their land, give them low income jobs in poor parts of the country where education and activities are kept to a strict minimum.. the end result is: Highest rate of suicide in american history. Kids as young as 8 years old (yes, 8 years old) are taking their lives... so technically, they weren't murdered, they weren't killed by the hands of someone else... but...

And that's my argument for the sake of the debate...

I wouldn't accept defeat just yet, we do live in a much more violent society and the methods to deliver the violence are just getting more and more sophisticated.

And what you describe is exactly what we did to Native Americans in this country. Statistically, they have a very high suicide rate compared to other races.

 

[Mac98]

"Violence is just getting more and more sophisticated"

Great quote... sums up what I'm trying to get across.

It's sickening in a way. The US is as careless towards their people as any other country (in exception to a few, I admit). We slap on a sticker saying "free" "democratic" "liberty" over dictatorship and controlled masses. We aren't free to do anything... we get to vote who'll be in charge of the nation between 2 people... every FOUR years... we don't even get to vote on that person's decisions once he's in power. We don't physically kill, silence people, we just find loopholes to make sure we auto-destruct ourselves. It's just like you said, "the methods to deliver the violence are just getting more and more sophisticated". Truer words, sugaredwalls...

 

[sugaredwalls]

This I will tell you and you may part ways with me here....

Every since we elected a black president in this country, the crazies have gone around the bend. Nuts with guns coming out of the woodwork. Paranoids afraid of getting their guns taken away, so they are stockpiling. Already, racial violence, a shooting in a Holocaust museum, a disgruntled man angry at women, shooting people in a gym, later to find his blog full of racial hatred as well. People getting hopped up on pundits like Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and then going out to do recon missions and yet again, stockpiling arms.

And the irony? When people questioned our government for going to war, killing people needlessly and sacrificing soldier's lives...they (myself included in the they) were seen as unpatriotic, traitors and terrorist sympathizers. Unbelievable right? But, now with crazies going off with untruths about health care reform, teabag parties calling for a revolution, quoting Thomas Jefferson by saying "the tree of liberty has to be watered with bloodshed." Threats of violence against the government....these things are seen as our God given American Rights. Perpetrating violence? When did that become an American value?

IMO, that's just plain nutz!!!!

Oh and I didn't even mention the rise in underground militias, check this article out. A lengthy 3 pages but very eyeopening and enlightening. Well worth the read.

Ginning up the hate and violence

 

[Mac98]

It's sad, most of these people are either uninformed, misinformed or just straight off whacko. I think it is important, however, that people rebel when their needs aren't being met (which they haven't for too long... and when we were on the brink of equality and peace, our president was assassinated: JFK). The thing, though, is that it's not by blowing up buildings filled with civilians or shooting innocent people that you'll make a difference, it's by uniting together and DEMANDING a change.

Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Bolivia (and the water privatisation story)... those are major influences and role models for what revolution should be. Violence is never a way. Unless you have every single person in the nation to rise up against the government, there's no way your petty crimes'll make a difference. In fact, that's all they ask for, for you to strike first.

To me, the answer is simple. Boycott. You want to stop paying for the stupid decisions your "leader" makes, you wanna' stop consuming the garbage we're force fed all day? Then it's simple. Just, as a nation, boycott. Don't go to work, don't consume, don't buy at ALL... within a month, the whole system'll collapse and they'll have absolutely no cure for it but psychological manipulation... which is where your will power comes in.

Unfortunately, none of us are disciplined or willing to do any of that. Instead, we'd rather plant explosives, shoot our brothers and scream YEEHAW! And vive la revolucion (even though most people no nothing about the meaning behind it).

It's sad, it's not the way, and its end result is fuck all.


Non-violent protest is usually the only way and works quite well if you stick by it. However, this most certainly means you'll be assassinated.

 

[JohnMBrowning]

And away we go.

 

[Mac98]

And away we go.

You mean that in what sense?

 

[sugaredwalls]

Non-violent protest is usually the only way and works quite well if you stick by it. However, this most certainly means you'll be assassinated.

Now why am I thinking of Tiananman Square?

Unfortunately what you say is true, the non violent ones are usually the first ones assassinated.

 

[Mac98]

Now why am I thinking of Tiananman Square?

Unfortunately what you say is true, the non violent ones are usually the first ones assassinated.

It's to keep hope and determination at a minimum. To invoke despair in everyone. I'm not afraid much of dying, it wouldn't stop me from spawning a revolution, no. What WOULD stop me would be the fact of putting all that energy, sacrificing my life to this to have no end result. Doing it for nothing scares me more than dying for it...

 

[sugaredwalls]

It's to keep hope and determination at a minimum. To invoke despair in everyone. I'm not afraid much of dying, it wouldn't stop me from spawning a revolution, no. What WOULD stop me would be the fact of putting all that energy, sacrificing my life to this to have no end result. Doing it for nothing scares me more than dying for it...

You're making me think of Afghanistan. Ten years fighting the Russians, now over five years fighting off the Taliban. It's not right to let tyranny and violence continue to rule but it seems so futile at times, like this country is just destined to fulfill it's prophecy of being a violent and hopeless nation.

At some point in time, I guess we can hope people will figure out there's a better way.

 

[Mac98]

You're making me think of Afghanistan. Ten years fighting the Russians, now over five years fighting off the Taliban. It's not right to let tyranny and violence continue to rule but it seems so futile at times, like this country is just destined to fulfill it's prophecy of being a violent and hopeless nation.

At some point in time, I guess we can hope people will figure out there's a better way.

For someone who didn't enjoy "Zeitgeist", you sure seem to look towards a Venus Project - like future...

 

[sugaredwalls]

For someone who didn't enjoy "Zeitgeist", you sure seem to look towards a Venus Project - like future...

Meh, just common sense really. Violence begets violence and throw some extreme poverty in for good measure....and you have a country in total disarray.

 

[Mac98]

Meh, just common sense really. Violence begets violence and throw some extreme poverty in for good measure....and you have a country in total disarray.

Whenever power and money is present, equality and peace can be forgotten. That's why, to me at least, the Zeitgeist movies are so important. They not only wake people up to what's going on and how deep up our asses we're being fucked, but it offers a solution. Finally.

For or against, there's no denying that the Venus Project sounds like more than a beautiful way of living.

Great discussion we've been having here!

 

[sugaredwalls]

Whenever power and money is present, equality and peace can be forgotten. That's why, to me at least, the Zeitgeist movies are so important. They not only wake people up to what's going on and how deep up our asses we're being fucked, but it offers a solution. Finally.

For or against, there's no denying that the Venus Project sounds like more than a beautiful way of life.

Great discussion we've been having here!

Yes, very good discussion!

As I said, I didn't watch all of the Zeitgeist movies but out of curiosity, did they say anything about a war on drugs? Boy, if there was ever a more useless and futile war, it would be that one. Simple fix though, decriminalize drugs and almost all the crime from it is removed.

 

[Mac98]

As I said, I didn't watch all of the Zeitgeist movies but out of curiosity, did they say anything about a war on drugs? Boy, if there was ever a more useless and futile war, it would be that one. Simple fix though, decriminalize drugs and almost all the crime from it is removed.

They mention it briefly, I believe, but I may have just heard it in a Peter Joseph interview. I still suggest rewatching the first one and then watching the second one. Perhaps you don't agree with the 9/11 information given, but I think it's important for everyone to at least be aware of the problem and then be aware of that problem's solution (which is offered in the 2nd movie). I watched both movies again (AFTER creating this thread) and it's both demoralizing to see how clueless and stubborn everyone is, yet refreshingly hopeful to see what the world could be like if we just all said "No! I'm a human Being Goddammit, my life has value!" (William Beale, from "Network").

If not for us, then for future generations.

 

[Mac98]

Another fun fact about the war on drugs.. We're the number 1 consumers of drugs on the planet... drugs makes up an important part of our economy. We make deals with countries (like Peru, for example) to ship drugs in, in exchange for other services.

 

[sugaredwalls]

It was a couple of years ago when the Zeitgeist docs were circulating online, someone from a political forum I post at had posted them. When I get time, I'll have to go back and watch again or at least watch more carefully.

Another area besides drugs is energy dependence. Oy vey, read Thomas L. Friedman's book Hot, Flat and Crowded and never realized how important creating green technology and energy independence is to our national security.

Completely off topic but did you see What The Bleep Do We Know?

A whole other ball of wax but it may be something that interests you because it's another alternative way of looking at our life, why things happen and why we do the things we do. Lol, I'm always the skeptic but it was definitely interesting. If you have already seen it, wouldn't be surprised.

Not sure if you can view it online, you may have to rent the DVD.

 

[Mac98]

I have it . I've watched it more than once, and find some stuff I had missed the first times watching it. It's mind boggling and almost hard to grasp the first time watching it because it obviously demands an open mind and lots of imagination.

It just goes to show, though, that we're not at all as smart as we claim to be. There's so much out there we have yet to discover...

 

[sugaredwalls]

Check this out Mac, think you will find it very interesting but not at all surprising.

Still looking for answers about 9/11

 

[Mac98]

I think it would be a great thing if the case was re-opened... it would also be fun, while their at it, to re-open the Kurt Cobain case and the JFK one .

This being said, who will be in charge of the new investigations? Most probably not NY street pedestrians. I think it's a nice dream, but I wouldn't be surprised if they just come up with some other bogus excuse. We'll see.

 

[sugaredwalls]

"Independent investigation" , lol, that leaves a wide berth of who would actually investigate. I was sort of surprised at how many people were on board with re-investigating though.

And speaking of Kurt Cobain, there was a flap about him recently because of a dedication plaque of a quote of his that's supposed to go in a park in his hometown. People complained because it has the word "fuck" in it. Don't know what became of it but I'm sure google will tell you.

 

[Mac98]

It's good news, though, that some people understand and realize exactly what's going on with the whole 9/11 thing.

As for KC, I'll check that out lol. Just goes to show that some people are WAY too uptight...