Plausibility?

[lazyhobo]

In a fantasy, the writer has a duty to set the rules of his world from Harry Potter to Star Trek. Of course, they have the omnipotency to change the rules but need a reason.

In 'real-life' fiction, especially erotic, rules fly out of the window. We are all complicit in taking for granted that condoms and birth-control issues are not needed, just as precautions before anal sex are irrelevant. Is that plausible?

I think PL comes closest with 'self-consistency' within a story - heck, Patricia Cornwell throws consistency out of the window between books but not within them.

Forgetting the 'plausability' of bathroom breaks, sleep, washing and eating - ignored (I hope) unless relevant - from Greek tragedy to Dan Brown and Harlan Coben, the concept of 'suspension of disbelief' has been key to keeping the unlikely plot rolling without extraneous detours.

I read Stieg Larsson not because he's plausible but because he's a page-turner.

I have no liking for scouries' writings as I find them childish and 'implausible' but you must admit that he's targeted the G-spot of incest readers. Implausibility abounds and, inadequate writer that he is, he avoids the preamble to jusify why two people from the same family want to have sex.

We all suspend our disbelief when confronted with a gripping plot. Knowing that 'House' was ridiculously implausible, I watched every episode avidly.

To summarize, forget this nonsense but write directly for the audience you want to read you. That's what Shakespeare, Twain, Dan Brown et al, did.

One person's 'implausibility' is anothers's exciting read.

I've read a lot of stories, played alot of games and even watched alot of films / movies / television shows, where throughout a certain time, someone does not ever, take a bath / shower, doesnt go to the toilet. Sometimes they dont eat in the period.

I've also read stories, (Graphic novels, stories with pictures) Where it includes a girls first time, they are virgins, and yet, theres no breaking of a hymen or any blood. Now I know that that sort of thing isnt everyones cup of tea, but they claim to be a virgin, yet none of that happens, and no reason why not. Sometimes I've read a story where she claims to be a virgin but broke her hymen in another way, say during masturbation. But the point remains, they took out something that always made me stop enjoying it, to think, "Hey, thats not right!"

Its these sorts of things, the things that make you have to stop and think about whether that is right or not, has the story gave any reason / rule as to why it did or didnt happen like this? that have the potential to spoil a good story. (Im not saying spoil it overall, perhaps just for a short time, but spoil non the less)

In a condition like that, you may wish to consider voicing a word.

 

[OX2]

Back to the original topic and question, If an editor can fix my grammar and tenses and a few inconsistencies then that's what I'm asking the editor to do. A few comments here or there to direct things would be OK. If they decide to change my whole story, premise, characters and world, then they might as well just take my idea and write their own story.

Sometimes people need to be told they suck at something. People keep telling me I have a talent. I really don't see it as all that. But they continue to encourage me. I would rather have a bold correction then a filmy half truth or encouraging pat on the ass with a gold star for participation.

After quite a few great reviews and comments from my friends and others over one of my stories, My best friend's wife told me she hated it because the characters weren't fucking soon enough. She didn't have the time for plot, character or scene development, she just wanted to read people fucking.

So there it is, I guess, you write for your self, you make it at least believable to yourself, and if you're editing, tell the truth but let it go if the Writer doesn't see it your way.

 

[sr71plt]

Reading through this thread again, I wonder if the OP meant 'self-consistency' when the word 'plausibility' was used?

That certainly seems to be what several other contributors want.

I think "self-consistency" (or "internal consistency") is a good term for what an editor should be looking for and marking.

 

[OX2]

For clarity's sake it's spelled E.D.I.T.O.R not R.E.V.I.E.W.E.R

 

[Bramblethorn]

We all suspend our disbelief when confronted with a gripping plot.

To a point, but suspension of disbelief doesn't come for free. The more leeway you want, the more you have to work for it and the more you have to give in return.

Want your hero to ride to Baghdad on a horse? Sure, whatever. Want them to fly to Baghdad on a magic carpet? Going to have to earn it. There are plenty of ways an author could make it work, but if they just write "Ali went down to the market and bought a magic carpet" readers will feel cheated.

Mostly when an author deliberately introduces something unrealistic, they already have a payoff in mind, so it's not likely to be a problem. But when they do it by accident or through ignorance, there's no payoff.

e.g.: in "Hunt For Red October", Tom Clancy introduces a fictional submarine drive. That drive serves as a major plot element for the book, gives plenty of people motivation - it earns its keep.

But in later novels, he starts printing bullshit about quantum computing and epidemiology. Not because it's important to the story, just because he couldn't be arsed getting it right. That's where my suspension of disbelief starts evaporating.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Back to the original topic and question, If an editor can fix my grammar and tenses and a few inconsistencies then that's what I'm asking the editor to do...

For clarity's sake it's spelled E.D.I.T.O.R not R.E.V.I.E.W.E.R

"Editor" covers a very wide range of things. It's entirely appropriate for a content editor to provide feedback similar to what a reviewer would give: "this character isn't believable, and the story would flow better if you got rid of this side plot". What you're describing there is a copy editor.

If you only want a copy editor, that's fine - but don't get the idea that "editors" in general have no business poking their noses in the creative process.

 

[OX2]

"Editor" covers a very wide range of things. It's entirely appropriate for a content editor to provide feedback similar to what a reviewer would give: "this character isn't believable, and the story would flow better if you got rid of this side plot". What you're describing there is a copy editor.

If you only want a copy editor, that's fine - but don't get the idea that "editors" in general have no business poking their noses in the creative process.

I agree with that point, but there has to be a point for an editor where he/she is changing and re-writing so much that a story no longer looks like what the author wrote. At what point, which I think was the reason for this thread, is the editor pushing his own bias instead of just "editing" a story?

 

[lazyhobo]

I agree with that point, but there has to be a point for an editor where he/she is changing and re-writing so much that a story no longer looks like what the author wrote. At what point, which I think was the reason for this thread, is the editor pushing his own bias instead of just "editing" a story?

An Editor's job overall, is making that story the best that he can. If he has to -Suggest- or -Make- changes, he does.

If its a story, that was so bad that by the time the editor has finished, its basically his story, then the writer needs to get more experience writing so that it doesnt happen. You cannot blame an editor if he makes too many changes, because hes doing what he should.
-----

When editing a story, I first weed out the grammatical mishaps and then any serious plot inconsistencies. Then comes the elephant in the room or the dreaded P.

95% of the stories I get are seriously lacking in realism or plausibility. They become strange sexual fantasies where the sequence of events fails to make sense. Real world principles take a flight out the window.

When I point this out, some authors reply with "well it's erotica, so the sex is all that matters" or "it's just fantasy, no need to impose realism". Others, though, improve it based on my suggestions.

So I ask the more experienced editors, readers and writers here- am I putting too much emphasis on "a real story"? Should I limit my editing to the point where I don't try to make rational sense out of it?#
----
Theres the post, It wasnt pushing forward his own bias, it was, should I make suggestions that May improve the story. Which is the job of an editor.

 

[OX2]

An Editor's job overall, is making that story the best that he can. If he has to -Suggest- or -Make- changes, he does.

If its a story, that was so bad that by the time the editor has finished, its basically his story, then the writer needs to get more experience writing so that it doesnt happen. You cannot blame an editor if he makes too many changes, because hes doing what he should.
-----

When editing a story, I first weed out the grammatical mishaps and then any serious plot inconsistencies. Then comes the elephant in the room or the dreaded P.

95% of the stories I get are seriously lacking in realism or plausibility. They become strange sexual fantasies where the sequence of events fails to make sense. Real world principles take a flight out the window.

When I point this out, some authors reply with "well it's erotica, so the sex is all that matters" or "it's just fantasy, no need to impose realism". Others, though, improve it based on my suggestions.

So I ask the more experienced editors, readers and writers here- am I putting too much emphasis on "a real story"? Should I limit my editing to the point where I don't try to make rational sense out of it?#
----
Theres the post, It wasnt pushing forward his own bias, it was, should I make suggestions that May improve the story. Which is the job of an editor.

I agree. But I think you do owe it to an Author to tell him it's rubbish too. Editing is a fine line to walk between, "do I just not like this writer's style or is this some crap.?" I hand it to you editors that do that well. I read and edit crap all day and sometimes, when I've seen something three or four times, I just need to sit back, look at intent and if I am pushing a bias, then make a decision of weather to ok it or send it back again, it helps if by then I can go face to face with a writer and coach/mentor them a little too. This usually helps.

 

[sr71plt]

I agree with that point, but there has to be a point for an editor where he/she is changing and re-writing so much that a story no longer looks like what the author wrote. At what point, which I think was the reason for this thread, is the editor pushing his own bias instead of just "editing" a story?

A professional editor doesn't "change" or "rewrite" anything (except when the writer is in a for-hire situation, such as a newspaper writer, fully subject to whatever the editor wants to do with the piece). For something like the erotica stories here (or mainstream books), the editor makes suggestions or gives notes without erasing the original. Then the author reviews and either the author decides what suggestions to suggest/reject, or the author comments on any suggested changes he/she doesn't agree with, and whoever is cleaning up the manuscript imposes the decisions indicated.

 

[lazyhobo]

A professional editor doesn't "change" or "rewrite" anything (except when the writer is in a for-hire situation, such as a newspaper writer, fully subject to whatever the editor wants to do with the piece). For something like the erotica stories here (or mainstream books), the editor makes suggestions or gives notes without erasing the original. Then the author reviews and either the author decides what suggestions to suggest/reject, or the author comments on any suggested changes he/she doesn't agree with, and whoever is cleaning up the manuscript imposes the decisions indicated.

As said here, Editors, we dont change anything except grammatical and spelling mistakes. Any content changes are suggestions, that the author may or may not listen to.

If a change has been made, and I mean a big one, that basically says "this is now my story, not yours" its still the authors decision to allow it. If he does accept the change, even if its less of his story, then thats his choice and he cant complain later.

If he says no, wanting to keep the peice original, thats fine, in the end it wont become the Editors Piece.

Point is, we can never really change anything, we suggest alternatives and the author decides. If it does end by the story being more out work than his, he has to accept that first.

 

[Bramblethorn]

95% of the stories I get are seriously lacking in realism or plausibility. They become strange sexual fantasies where the sequence of events fails to make sense. Real world principles take a flight out the window.

When I point this out, some authors reply with "well it's erotica, so the sex is all that matters" or "it's just fantasy, no need to impose realism". Others, though, improve it based on my suggestions.

So I ask the more experienced editors, readers and writers here- am I putting too much emphasis on "a real story"? Should I limit my editing to the point where I don't try to make rational sense out of it?#

I think it depends on whether the author cares (something you should find out as soon as possible before you put effort into the editing!) For my part I appreciate it when authors and editors make the effort to create credible characters and plots, but each to their own.

 

[lance gt]

Aren't plausibility and realism, as subjective to the readers concept of them? What one reader would consider plausible, another won't. What one thinks is real, another won't. There's a point in plausiblity when it fails, but it's different for everyone, depending on the factors used.
If the majority of readers say it's plausible, it gets taken as such and debates form, by those who aren't convinced by it.

 

[lazyhobo]

Aren't plausibility and realism, as subjective to the readers concept of them? What one reader would consider plausible, another won't. What one thinks is real, another won't. There's a point in plausiblity when it fails, but it's different for everyone, depending on the factors used.
If the majority of readers say it's plausible, it gets taken as such and debates form, by those who aren't convinced by it.

Yes and by that logic, A lot of people would find magic and spells, wizardly and mythical creatures as Implausible and unrealistic, but did that make the writer of Harry Potter feel the need to remove them out? No, because that would just ruin the whole premise of the story.

Bottom line : A story is the Writers own world, what he puts in there is law. If he makes a mistake regarding his own rules, then hes made a mistake, tell him about it. Worrying about wether people will agree with a certain rule or not is too much worrying about because we dont know, and you cant cater to the needs of everyone.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I can hear the Olympian tectonic plates crashing.

I think I agree with sr that our chase round expressions like plausible, realistic, self-consistent et al, really comes down to the discipline of "internal-consistency".

As sr said, when he writes GM he expects readers to be on board with the fictional premise of the genre. The same goes (on lit at least) for cats such as T/S, LW, even male-dominated Lesbian.

There is little here that is plausible or realistic, but then the readership demands a certain style in each category. Just like Dan Brown stories that require a reader to make quantum leaps to avoid the pond of reality (which we do), lit readers do the same, provided 'internal-consistency' is upheld.

To the OP I would say, look to sr's 'internal-consistency' definition rather than shadowy concepts of 'realism' and 'plausibility'.

 

[TimothyM]

OK, if we accept the definiton given by sr and elfin (which I agree that we should), then we are back to the question which began this thread:
Should an editor point out such internal inconsistencies / plausibility problems?
Yes I think he or she should for the following reasons:
1. Most likely the inconsistency was an honest mistake by the author, who will be grateful for the chance of correcting it. I know I would.
2. If the editor does not point it out, some nitpicking reader (like me is sure to comment on it, and if the problem is something glaringly obvious and silly, I might even ridicule the story - or even worse the author.
3. Inconsistencies or lack of plausibility within the chosen premises of the story can rip the reader out of the nice fantasy we were enjoying - and nothing will make me leave a story faster.

So I think editors are not doing their job properly, if they do not point out such things, unless of course the author asked only for spelling and grammar corrections beforehand.
Giving suggestions for improvement or trying to influence the content of the story is something totally different. This should only be attempted if the author has specifically asked for it.

 

[sr71plt]

Should an editor point out such internal inconsistencies / plausibility problems?

Yes, I think that's basic to their function. (I try to mark them as "seemingly inconsistent," though. I try to leave the decision on whether or not to change anything to the author beyond the points where I'm working with a publisher's "this way or the road" editorial guidelines.)

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I've had a long-running disagreement with sr because I believe he doesn't address the basic issues of newbie story writing, plausabilitity and, with the advice he gives, he encourages lazyhobo's mistaken view of ignoring the rules of writing.

 

[sr71plt]

Is there an English translation for that (or even anything that relates it to the discussion or anything I've posted here)?

I think we often disagree, Elfin, mainly because you are a muddleheaded dingbat and because you are obsessed with me. But that's just my opinion.

 

[lazyhobo]

he encourages lazyhobo's mistaken view of ignoring the rules of writing.

Can I get a copy of this book called "THE RULES OF WRITING"?? Because now that I know I have mistaken them, reading these rules may help me out a great deal.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Can I get a copy of this book called "THE RULES OF WRITING"?? Because now that I know I have mistaken them, reading these rules may help me out a great deal.

OK, racing off a response on the hoof now looks silly.

I meant, given the CMS, a good dictionary, thesaurus, grammar and dialogue guides, a writer should be able to have a good stab at copy editing. That is, surely, the low level of editing.

I think what irritated me a tad was the acceptance that new fiction writers should be encouraged to believe that their first attempt is the precious thing they created and has to be protected but rather a work in progress that needs to be examined rationally and fixed. Every writer does that.

Story mechanics are vital but often not understood by new writers. What I think of as 'developmental editing' - which is completely subjective - looks at scenes, coherence, whether conflict is just argumentative, structure, building tension/expectation and superfluous characters.

A writer surely should surely expect an experienced editor here to go beyond the low level of copy editing and evaluate whether the story works 'on the page'.

That's not appropriating ownership, just evaluating the skeleton.

There's no reason why writers can't learn to self-edit with some coaching from a good editor.

 

[lazyhobo]

OK, racing off a response on the hoof now looks silly.

I meant, given the CMS, a good dictionary, thesaurus, grammar and dialogue guides, a writer should be able to have a good stab at copy editing. That is, surely, the low level of editing.

I think what irritated me a tad was the acceptance that new fiction writers should be encouraged to believe that their first attempt is the precious thing they created and has to be protected but rather a work in progress that needs to be examined rationally and fixed. Every writer does that.

Story mechanics are vital but often not understood by new writers. What I think of as 'developmental editing' - which is completely subjective - looks at scenes, coherence, whether conflict is just argumentative, structure, building tension/expectation and superfluous characters.

A writer surely should surely expect an experienced editor here to go beyond the low level of copy editing and evaluate whether the story works 'on the page'.

That's not appropriating ownership, just evaluating the skeleton.

There's no reason why writers can't learn to self-edit with some coaching from a good editor.

Im sorry but I dont quite understand, again, where is said rules of writing? and using that post you just gave, can you specifically point out where I have a misguided view of something?

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

Im sorry but I dont quite understand, again, where is said rules of writing? and using that post you just gave, can you specifically point out where I have a misguided view of something?

The following sites cover punctuation and grammar
http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/department/docs/punctuation/node00.html
http://www.correctpunctuation.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.grammaticallycorrect.co.uk/
http://www.askoxford.com/betterwriting/?view=uk
http://www.writing-world.com/fiction/dialogue.shtml

For more general advice I use Fowler's Modern English Usage to be found at http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780198610212.do#.UAZoGpHvDHc

The "CMS" before which these Americans kneel and worship is the Chicago Manual of Style at http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/home.html.

 

[oggbashan]

If the reader can suspend disbelief and maintain that suspension throughout, then I think that the story is plausible.

For some cultures, the idea of fiction is just incomprehensible. They cannot suspend disbelief at all.

For most of us, we were brought up with fiction, even fairy tales. We understand that fairies aren't real, but as a child we could enjoy stories beginning 'Once upon a time...'.

Some stories are just so badly written that the reader cannot suspend disbelief at all.

Some badly written (in a technical sense e.g. grammar, spelling) stories have a premise that encourages the reader to suspend their disbelief because the story hits the particular fantasy of the reader e.g. almost anything written as fan-fic when the author knows the characters and scenarios reasonably.

That also works for particular fetishes. Just mention that fully fashioned 10 denier stockings feature in the writing and some readers would read the reported discussions of Congress to find the references.

But some authors start OK and then blow it. An example is the Lensman novels of E E (Doc) Smith. At first the suspended disbelief is easy, but as the series develops it turns into a childhood war game "I've got a gun."; "I've got a bigger gun."; "I've got artillery."; "I've got bigger artillery." as Doc Smith invents a new weapon to defeat the enemy every time. It works for a while and then the reader knows that a new super-duper atomic gizmo will come along in time to save the world, worlds, civilisation...

Plausibility is a major factor in the art of story-telling. Some writers can write good, grammatical English but can't tell a story. Story tellers who are good at telling the story can make many technical mistakes in their English but still attract an audience.

The ideal, of course, is a good story-teller who can write good English. It is easier to teach a story teller to write better than to teach a good writer to tell stories.

 

[lazyhobo]

The following sites cover punctuation and grammar
http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/department/docs/punctuation/node00.html
http://www.correctpunctuation.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.grammaticallycorrect.co.uk/
http://www.askoxford.com/betterwriting/?view=uk
http://www.writing-world.com/fiction/dialogue.shtml

For more general advice I use Fowler's Modern English Usage to be found at http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780198610212.do#.UAZoGpHvDHc

The "CMS" before which these Americans kneel and worship is the Chicago Manual of Style at http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/home.html.

I wasn't asking for links to improve my punctuation and grammar, I was asking Elfins reference for the rules of writing so I could see where he / she felt I had a misguided view.