Poetry

[Tzara]

Dunno if I can spell that. Is it ok if I just call you PP?

It is what I seem to produce.

 

[Tzara]

About some of the previous conversation, let me try and clear something up. I am not saying, at least I hope I am not saying, that unless you know lots and lots and lots about poetic form and metaphor and metrical terminology and etc. etc. etc. that your poems will suck and you are a bad writer. What I thought I was saying is something like the more you know about your craft, the better. It helps you understand why some things work and others don't. It aids you in discussing work with your peers. It is the toolkit of your profession—not that poetry is a profession, but you know (I hope) what I mean.

Do you need a college degree in writing? Of course not. What matters is a desire to learn as much about writing as you can. Maria mentioned enjambment for example. Before I came here, I had never heard the term before. So, I learned something that I now can use (though perhaps not well). What I'm saying—the more you know about technique and form and tools, the more options you have when writing. I think it helps you analyze your own and others' writing and gives you more ways of thinking about fixing things that just don't seem to work. Knowledge—it's a good thing.

I would also agree with Erin that the "big breakthroughs" in art are where artists change or alter accepted standards. But I would also argue that those who make these breakthroughs virutally always are very very skilled and knowledgeable about the traditions and commonly accepted "rules" of their art. Composition students study counterpoint and harmony. Art students paint nudes and still lifes. Poets often write form poems as training.

Do they have to? No, but poets certainly study other poets. Ezra Pound served as William Butler Yeats' secretary. E.E. Cummings wrote Shakespearian sonnets. You do things like this to build your facility and technique.

And, as I said before, knowledge of technique does not a great (or even decent) poet make. You still have to have whatever it is that makes it art. That probably isn't something you can learn. But without the technique, you may not have the skills to translate your vision into something that communicates itself to people.

Hey! How'd I end up standing on this soapbox? *steps down, embarrassed*

Anyway, something like that thing, sorta.

 

[TheRainMan]

Well, I don't know what to say.. I mean, I know the proper labels for poems and everything but I just don't care about them.. Everything to me is free style. I mean, If I happen to write a sonnet.. I don't look at it as sonnet.. I look at it as poetry. Just another poem i wrote... Is that bad?

i don’t much care about labels either . . . so no, i do not think that is bad.

structuring poetry by limitation and rule nowadays seems sort of like building a factory to produce transportation items and then manufacturing buggy whips. you can sell them in Amish country, and maybe a few other places. but not many.

good poetry is certainly about craft, as Tzara says, and to craft a good poem takes a certain amount of accumulated knowledge. quite a bit, I think.

and Tzara also makes a great point that i agree with wholeheartedly, that good writing is intuitional. i’m not sure where that intuition comes from, how much is natural and how much is learned, but i know it’s there.

i am a strong proponent of free verse. to such an extent that i think messing around with form poetry has entered the realm of nothing more than fooling around for one’s own amusement. i do concede that the rigidity of meter and sound may perhaps add to one’s intuitive powers down the road. maybe, maybe not.

not mine, though -- i know what a sonnet is, what one looks like, how to write one. for me, that knowledge is useless (for some others, it may be quite helpful).

poetry has evolved, and sonnets and their cousins reside in the language zoo. they look sort of like those that stare at them from the future, but have longer arms, more hair and love bananas.

i say don’t worry about it. read a lot of poetry, as much as you can (all kinds, including sonnets and other form poetry), let your mind soak up what it can, and then write. and see what happens.


as far as titles go, i think they are useful, if for no reason other than clerical. i know a modern poet who titles every poem with an asterisk. how he finds anything among the thousand ***’s is beyond me.

 

[EriAliSaa]

I would also agree with Erin that the "big breakthroughs" in art are where artists change or alter accepted standards. But I would also argue that those who make these breakthroughs virutally always are very very skilled and knowledgeable about the traditions and commonly accepted "rules" of their art. Composition students study counterpoint and harmony. Art students paint nudes and still lifes. Poets often write form poems as training.

Do they have to? No, but poets certainly study other poets. Ezra Pound served as William Butler Yeats' secretary. E.E. Cummings wrote Shakespearian sonnets. You do things like this to build your facility and technique.

I will concede this point. But sometimes greatness happens without much if any training at all, though it is extremely rare and I can't say i have ever heard of any poet doing it.

That said, I have a bit of a pet peeve about poetic snobs. I had a teacher once that said i didn't have the capacity in me to write at all. He told me I would never be a poet or much of a writer.

He was a snob to the highest degree. He only grudgingly discussed the Ray Bradbury classic Fahrenheit 451... not thinking much of him or the book. It was only part of his class because it was part of the curriculum. He often mocked me for everything I would read, including C.J. Cherryh, Piers Anthony, Marion Zimmer Bradley, and a man he was sure was the literary version of the anti-Christ, Douglas Adams.

He also had very little use for Emily Dickinson, and was less than complementary of her work.

Tzara It is not how you represented yourself, so much as the subject that you stood near is my version of a red cape. I hope I have not given you the impression that I am dead set against you and everything you stand for.... or near. You've a valid point even if a tad harshly delivered.

I hope this does not make me a bit of a.... whatever it may make me in your eyes and know that I chuckled a couple of times.... I refuse to admit to giggling.... when perusing your responses before I replied in a more serious tenor than I may have intended.

 

[EriAliSaa]

Hey! How'd I end up standing on this soapbox? *steps down, embarrassed*

Whoa there! Not so fast. While you are up there how about a bit of a show? Maybe dance for us a bit?

Sorry. Must be the Don Giovanni Avatar. He is.... wow!

 

[Tzara]

I will concede this point. But sometimes greatness happens without much if any training at all, though it is extremely rare and I can't say i have ever heard of any poet doing it.

That said, I have a bit of a pet peeve about poetic snobs. I had a teacher once that said i didn't have the capacity in me to write at all. He told me I would never be a poet or much of a writer.

OK. We agree on this. You had a stupid teacher.

He was a snob to the highest degree. He only grudgingly discussed the Ray Bradbury classic Fahrenheit 451... not thinking much of him or the book. It was only part of his class because it was part of the curriculum. He often mocked me for everything I would read, including C.J. Cherryh, Piers Anthony, Marion Zimmer Bradley, and a man he was sure was the literary version of the anti-Christ, Douglas Adams.

He also had very little use for Emily Dickinson, and was less than complementary of her work.

So he was an idiot. Teachers often are.

One of the formative events of my life was in fifth grade. I had been given some Hardy Boys books as gifts and really liked them. I went in to my school library and asked if there were any there. The librarian looked at me and announced something like "Those books are junk. You shouldn't read them. Read these" (she listed several) "instead."

Man, was I pissed, though I eventually ended up reading some of the books she recommended, and liked them. (Voracious reader, y'know.) But that slamming something I liked, however in her eyes it was justified (and, later, I agreed with her) was unconscionable.

Reading of itself is good. We can argue merits later. Writing, of itself, is good and ditto.

Tzara It is not how you represented yourself, so much as the subject that you stood near is my version of a red cape. I hope I have not given you the impression that I am dead set against you and everything you stand for.... or near. You've a valid point even if a tad harshly delivered.

I hope this does not make me a bit of a.... whatever it may make me in your eyes and know that I chuckled a couple of times.... I refuse to admit to giggling.... when perusing your responses before I replied in a more serious tenor than I may have intended.

But, oh my dear, I am draped in red cape and standing, muscularious legs aspread, atop The Firmanent of Poems, ready to defend Truth, Justice, and Good Taste!

Hey. Make fun of me. Berate me. Disagree. I like debate.

How I make up my mind, not that I ever do.

 

[Tzara]

i am a strong proponent of free verse. to such an extent that i think messing around with form poetry has entered the realm of nothing more than fooling around for one’s own amusement.

Well, yeah, TRM, but I think it still has value. I may want to debate you on this.

You're too smart, though, for me to do this off the cuff. I need to load some paintball magazines first.

Or I could just bluff.

 

[Maria2394]

Well, yeah, TRM, but I think it still has value. I may want to debate you on this.

You're too smart, though, for me to do this off the cuff. I need to load some paintball magazines first.

Or I could just bluff.

or, you could stand on a bluff.
wearing nothing but that cape
and let the wind whip it up around your musclarious legs

 

[Tzara]

or, you could stand on a bluff.
wearing nothing but that cape
and let the wind whip it up around your musclarious legs

Or I could stand in the buff,
wearing nothing, but escape
the wind whipping my muscularious legs?

Pretty bold talk, I must say, from Ms. Tree Climber.

 

[EriAliSaa]

But, oh my dear, I am draped in red cape and standing, muscularious legs aspread, atop The Firmanent of Poems, ready to defend Truth, Justice, and Good Taste!

Hey. Make fun of me. Berate me. Disagree. I like debate.

How I make up my mind, not that I ever do.

I am having a bit of trouble reconciling that you use a phrase like The Firmament of Poems and Good Taste in the same sentence. Same paragraph.... same page.

Firmament? Really?! You trying to force people to scramble for their dictionaries.... or just been dying to use the word and this grandiose theme was the best you could manage to fit it in? I hate to say it might end up very anti-climatic because it is just not a word you can easily relate to like muscular thighs or taut round buttocks. Not that I am sure you mentioned either.... but you really ran the poetic bullfighter theme aground with firmament

Sorry hon couldn't resist the easy lampooning

 

[Tzara]

I am having a bit of trouble reconciling that you use a phrase like The Firmament of Poems and Good Taste in the same sentence. Same paragraph.... same page.

Firmament? Really?! You trying to force people to scramble for their dictionaries.... or just been dying to use the word and this grandiose theme was the best you could manage to fit it in? I hate to say it might end up very anti-climatic because it is just not a word you can easily relate to like muscular thighs or taut round buttocks. Not that I am sure you mentioned either.... but you really ran the poetic bullfighter theme aground with firmament

Sorry hon couldn't resist the easy lampooning

I should say instead firm, ahem?

Sorry, but that seems suggestive:

I am but artist, and naïve.
Not bullfighter, but bull, ici.
My buttocks taut, for all to see,
if they but want to. May not though—

grieve.

 

[TheRainMan]

Well, yeah, TRM, but I think it still has value. I may want to debate you on this.

You're too smart, though, for me to do this off the cuff. I need to load some paintball magazines first.

Or I could just bluff.

nah, no debate. it's a boring topic. i say whatever a poet thinks might help, try it. what have you got to lose but time?

but a paintball fight! i think i'd like to try that . . . those little fuckers look like they might hurt something fierce, though.

 

[SeattleRain]

Darling Anna!!

Have you purchased any new power tools since you moved?

ohmygod how did you know?

My husband bought me little powered hand drill. I have not used it yet.... I need some lessons. I mainly like to watch. A power tool voyeur.

 

[Maria2394]

ohmygod how did you know?

My husband bought me little powered hand drill. I have not used it yet.... I need some lessons. I mainly like to watch. A power tool voyeur.

a LITTLE hand drill...oh no, that willnot do!! You deserve a large drill, one with multiple heads and a battery pack, one that can drill holes for locks and for hinge bolts, one that can alternate as a screw driver as well..you need a grinder and a bandsaw, you need to come work with me!!

our business sign, I see it now

sisters wid tools

i miss you crazy woman, sweet crazy poet woman

 

[EriAliSaa]

If I was ever given a power tool that sort of stuff.... I beat the giver to death with it. Not be mean.... but the only "power tool" I want would not be used for fixing locks or drilling hinges.

 

[Maria2394]

If I was ever given a power tool that sort of stuff.... I beat the giver to death with it. Not be mean.... but the only "power tool" I want would not be used for fixing locks or drilling hinges.

well, sweet thang, thats your perogative!!

me and anna tho, we like to make things. I tell you what I hate though, is getting a kitchen appliance as a gift, makes me wanna chokle the giver with the flippin cord.

I have spent enough of my life cooking and cleaning and now my kids are grown and I want to build things! tear things down, make them shiny and new and if nothing else, I get to put on some PPE and make one helluva mess

 

[EriAliSaa]

well, sweet thang, thats your perogative!!

me and anna tho, we like to make things. I tell you what I hate though, is getting a kitchen appliance as a gift, makes me wanna chokle the giver with the flippin cord.

I am with you and my kids are toddlers still. Worst gift ever.... a vacuum. Like I don't know how to buy a vacuum? Invent me a riding vacuum and we'll talk.... but don't buy me something to clean with. Cooking stuff is ok if I don't have it. I like to cook. I liked to cook even when I was single, and the years it was just two of us. I liked to bake too much in fact. Always had a ton of sweets around for the holidays.

But never cleaning stuff.... unless someone is buying me a maid. One with a nice firm ass, long flowing hair, lean muscular arms, tanned, wearing almost nothing.... oh and the less he says the better. I know that is supposed to be the pool boy... but I don't have a pool

 

[Maria2394]

I am with you and my kids are toddlers still. Worst gift ever.... a vacuum. Like I don't know how to buy a vacuum? Invent me a riding vacuum and we'll talk.... but don't buy me something to clean with. Cooking stuff is ok if I don't have it. I like to cook. I liked to cook even when I was single, and the years it was just two of us. I liked to bake too much in fact. Always had a ton of sweets around for the holidays.

But never cleaning stuff.... unless someone is buying me a maid. One with a nice firm ass, long flowing hair, lean muscular arms, tanned, wearing almost nothing.... oh and the less he says the better. I know that is supposed to be the pool boy... but I don't have a pool

I heard that!!

gimme a pool AND a pool boy, or just a yard boy with huge biceps that only speaks Italian. I can figure it out....

 

[EriAliSaa]

I heard that!!

gimme a pool AND a pool boy, or just a yard boy with huge biceps that only speaks Italian. I can figure it out....

Demand a pool and then get a pool boy? Jeez I am blonde. I never even thought of it that way. I always make things more difficult than they have to be. Thanks hon, I will have to demand a pool immediately.... or just settle for the down payment of a pool boy

 

[champagne1982]

A more cost effective way of getting what you want would be to get a cabana and a kiddie pool... The boyz will come.

 

[beautyandwine]

I think Tzara said it well. The more I learn, the more I play, I think (hope) the better my writing gets. Of course, that said, I still look at my own poetry and try to figure out just what is missing. What is it that makes a poem spectacular on its own, and how can I pull that into every piece. It's easy to tell who's been writing for a long time, it clearly shows. Sometimes it seems that the metaphors are deeper, or there is never excess wordage. It just leaves me pondering what it is that pulls us in to any individual poem (and I dare say that there is no magic answer to this). But what makes our favorite poets are favorites? Is it their voice, that intuitive sense that just "gets it", or is it a skill that any of us can learn? Reading more is a humbling experience.