Poor Taste

[Lauren Hynde]

Eve, sugar!

Please write the cool poem and don't mind me... It's 4 a.m. here so I guess I don't need to tell you how tired I am... I share your pain

 

[Senna Jawa]

Senna Jawa, are you being facetious?

Superficially, Collins' text opposses the standard treatment of poems reduced to "what author wanted to say?". Perhaps it's smoothly written, may be, but there is nothing to it, BS and junk, some distasteful matter in a cheap color candy wrap. No poetry. He is admiring his belly button or rather worse, his "poetic mind". It is pityful, pathetic. Not pretty. Just business advertisement and selfabsorption. If U r not alergic to BS, fine (I am). In a poem it is especially revolting, repulsive. Ok, it's ok, this text is no poem after all, no big deal, not much harm done. Just one more text bitching about this oh, how horrible, horrible, unjust world, while he, the author is sooo sensitive and wonderful. And that horrible world is treating him sooo bad, that he , sooo sensitive, can't help it but has to cry. Poor, poor Collins, "they" r beating HIS POEMS with a hose. Forget it.

(BTW, I am "he", check my profile

Regards,

 

[karmadog]

I suspect Collins wrote this while teaching a freshman English class. Poor bastard.

 

[Angeline]

Poetry Bashing

At the risk of being set upon by "real" poets, I admit that I love Collins' poem. I like clarity in writing: that happens to be my taste, and I find Collins' poem to be deceptively simple. Sometimes simple is profound, even! I have no problem with obscurity, either in content or form, and I leave it to those writers who work their words in that way to greater effect than I could ever achieve. Still, to condemn a writer for choosing a content or form one finds too easy or too self-aggrandizing seems narrow-minded to me. There should be room for all of us under the old poetry big top. Besides, sometimes candy colored paper is just pretty. Sometimes just pretty is just right.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

cheap color candy wrap

My shoes are completely covered with ornaments, festoons and puncture marks. Work made by the hands of a shoemaker that has not been paid accordingly. I go look for the shoemaker and I tell him: "You are charging thirty crowns for a pair of shoes. I will give you forty." With this I raise this man to a blissful height, and he will repay me with work and materials that, in quality, have no relation with the extra pay. He is happy. Few times happiness arrives at his house. In front of him he has a person that understands, cherishes his work and that doesn't doubt his integrity. In his imagination he already sees the finished shoes. He knows where to find the best leather, he know which worker to give the work to, and he knows the shoe will have festoons and puncture marks, as many as an elegant shoe must have. And now I tell him: "But I have one demand: The shoe must be completely smooth." With that I push him from the highest of heights to the a bottomless pit. He will have less work, but I have taken all the joy out of him

Adolf Loos, Ornament and Crime (1908)

What kind of a shoemaker are you, Senna Jawa?

 

[JUDO]

Please remember that others are allowed to possess their own opinions here. If this debate goes any closer to suppressing the other's opinion than it has already, it should stop.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

sorry, J

It wasn't my intention to deprive anyone of their belives, just want people to see the 2 sides of the issue. But in any case, your right, this thread isn't the right place for this. This thread was supposed to answer one simple question: ask the poet for an explination. yes or no? That has been answered already.

 

[Angeline]

I read these posts to my dear friend who uses the nickname Thoreau. Here is his response.

Nothing saddens me more than to witness the closing of the American mind. If there is one truth in this world, it is that art in all its forms is a personal matter. If I look at art strictly from my own vantage pont, I miss out on the creative genius that fused the world in a different light from my own. No poet worth his ink would ever read another's work without seeking to find that person's voice. Individuality is our guide; it makes us writers and brings life into the soul. If all you see is your reflection in the mirror, then you are missing the point and you diminish us all.

O wet pet. I like that.

 

[karmadog]

Waaah Wahhh Waaah

Jesus Christ!

Y'all are taking this shit way too seriously. I read once that one of the ways to tell if a man is enlightened is by his sense of humor, I think that no artist is worth a fuck if he or she can't laugh at him or herself first, and with others second (whether they know they are laughing or not).

Eat and digest. Might give you gas, but farts are funny.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Don't try to act cool, kd...

If we all tryed or best not to step on each other toes there would be no need for these forum. I'm all for having a sense of humour and I can relax just as much as the nest girl, but I wont be all smiles and pretend i'm OK with it all when I'm not. Frankly I would prefer if everyone did the same, even if that means hurting someone at times...

 

[Angeline]

They're Just Opinions

and really that's all they. Even the poetry newbies on this board are entitled to them, even when they differ from the mainstream. I respect the right of anyone who posts here to express their opinions and to express their poetry however they want. I even accept that it's all poetry, whether it's a form that personally appeals to me or not. And I don't have to stretch my belief system to feel that; I just do.

How is that a) wrong or b) evidence of my lack of humor? Please explain. I thought it was just self-expression. I certainly didn't intend anything personal by it.

Since I have been posting here, I have received email from other posters telling me that what I write isn't poetry because it doesn't rhyme, because it doesn't make the reader work to understand it. This morning I see that almost every poem I have here has had a significant drop in its rating as if someone had gone through and methodically given them low ratings. (I have over 20 poems posted, so I doubt it's a coincidence.) Now, if you ask me, that's taking it too seriously!

 

[Lauren Hynde]

not bad...

Well, at least the only poems of mine that took some kind of a plunge this last few hours were the ones on the top list, but it's good to know difference of opinion is so well respected amongst my fellow authors... I was under the childish impression we were all in the same boat...

 

[Galahad]

Re: Poetry Bashing

. . . There should be room for all of us under the old poetry big top. Besides, sometimes candy colored paper is just pretty. Sometimes just pretty is just right.

In my quest for simple truth and beauty, I aspire to clarity. Sometimes my grail seems hidden beyond a distant, dusty horizon. Angeline reminds me that beauty is everywhere, if only I take the time to see.

 

[Star At Sunrise]

Flame War!!!

Wow! A flame war! I just wish it wasn't going on between people that I like!

It's funny because everyone has a valid point. Maybe the mistake is that we're trying to debate something that is inherently subjective; i.e. what we like or don't like about a particular poem. It's bound to get to a personal level, because some works of art just strike a deep chord inside you, and to hear them criticized hurts. Even more so when the poem in question is your own.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Not at all, Star

No matter who wrote the poem, and what individual oppinion each one has of it, to hear a critique, good or bad, it's always rewardind. Just don't deny its EXISTENCE as a poem, or it's lacking of meaning just because you can't see it, or you because you THINK you see it and don't like it... that's not critique, it's just pretention.

 

[JUDO]

I really believe that this is a dangerous conversation. Not too long ago, I witnessed a similar discussion just about sink this board (no kidding). This was before a lot of you were participating (in fact, all of you having the conversation in this thread).

So, while everyone has their opinions, there is no room for hurting someone.

Please use discretion and full explanations of your feelings and thoughts instead. Doing that can be a lot of effort and trouble. If you are not willing to be clear to everyone (See? That's difficult.) then please back off and do what you can to keep the peace.

Take care.
- Judo

 

[Angeline]

Judo, I agree with you--some of the statements in this thread have gotten personally ugly and that is abhorrant to me. I hope that any I have made here have not been seen as personal insult; they really were not intended that way. We need to respect each others' differences and not attack, but then that's what I thought some of the more recent statements--at least mine--on this thread were attempting to do. It's good to have discussions about our different understandings of poetry--maybe we can come to understand each other better that way. Maybe we can learn to look at something we had not previously understood in a new light. These are good things, no? New understandings are generally born of controversy. And I do think we can have differences and even some controversy without hurting each other.

Just for the hell of it, I skimmed through some of the other threads on this board and guess what I found? This kind of personal flaming occurs in lots of places. To wit:

"This statement is arrogant and foolish perhaps an attempt at humor?
One does not lose appreciation of one style of art because you learn to appreciate another. Certainly the impressionist and cubist have something as worthwhile as DaVinci?

Western and eastern poetry are not in conflict and while you may feel the eastern style superior I suggest
you are influenced by your love of complexity. Comparing squares to circle is a foolhardy task.

Forgive the opinion, I fear it is the use of “U” for you in your writing. It would appear that some aspect of western pop culture has influenced you deeply. Unfortunate that is the slang of teenagers."


"This is not poetry! A mere collection of words put together with the consumate skill of the famous poker playing dog. I see he has learned to type as well as paint. Perhaps this is available in velvet? "


"Male insecurity?
Hmmm, UP dude, you sound like you're just a little bit threatened by strong, independent, "ballsy" women like KillerMuffin. Personally, I think she's cool."

These are all personal, potentially hurtful statements made by posters on other threads. I point this out only because I want to reiterate my point that we all do this on occasion. No it isn't ok. We all have different views of what constitutes poetry. You don't have to like what I like--I hate the idea of a vanilla world--but at least let's respect each other's right to have different opinions, and do so without getting nasty about it.

Judo, I have great respect for your opinion, and have observed you to be equanimous in these matters. I won't beat this horse anymore, but I do want to feel comfortable about coming on here and expressing my differences respectfully.

Thanks for listening.
Angeline