Power

[Guest]

.So putting you in the hot seat EKVITKAR...(as an example)I am a young inexperienced new Dom, and I am asking you to teach me...mentor me if you will...I think I have confidence, and ability and know I have a degree of willingness, not completely sure what you mean by control....As my teacher or mentor how can you be sure the confidence the ability and the willingness is the kind your talking about?
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It may be ok to say...."you either got it or your don't" when it comes to being or not being a Dominant person by nature, but this answer just does not cut it when we are talking about being a Dom or a Domme.
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I know I am being a pain in the ass...I am like the kid who just keeps asking why...why...why... but when you consider how a person thinks about power, and how that effects so many aspects of what it means to be a Dom/Domme, and you also consider how it will impact those who become that person's future submissive(s), I think it is worth the effort. I mean after all were just talking about human beings here right?

*grin* And to think, I stopped a nostagic bout of Ultimate Doom to look at the board....

Hmmm How bout we start this book one chapter at a time - Just the way you would talk to someone else about it?
(Also that makes it easier for people to tell me I'm full of shit- in detail)

I don't think I've ever told anyone "You've either got it, or not.".
Except...When talking about the actual desire itself.
Otherwise youre just copping out. You do either have the desire or not.. If you have the desire ... Then perhaps the other parts can be aquired.

{And RJ, You might be a pain in the ass, but then at least you're one that asks good questions..*shrug* I've been called a pain in the ass..Doesn't bother me a bit}

IMHO..I guess the place to start is sort of in reverse order.
Because it all devolves back around, sooner or later, to -
Control.
If you can't control yourself, how do you expect to control anyone else?
Responsibility
Inner-Strength
Position
Taking Charge -
Respect
Accountability
The Human Will
All the above have to do with control..Either control of the self, or control of the situation. Though they do have other aspects to them as well.
First one has to control the self.

 

[RJMasters]

I don't like where this is going.

I don't like the idea of making some magic woo woo litmus test for people, are you a Dom/me what is a Dom/me?

If you are certain you are one, you are. Whether you're any good or not is up to other factors.

You know, when I started this game I was 23, I had a flogger and a dress mannequin and some totally unearned bravado. I don't apologize for that girl one bit today. Fake it till you make it has a LOT of validity, a LOT. As long as you begin to break free of faking it. It is like being onstage, it *is* like learning to golf, it is like any of those things. You are going to improve.

I am a responsible, fair, kind person who believes in karma. Those fundamentals are not going to be obscured in my D/s baby steps, they are just not always going to be the main driving force.

What's power?

To me, as a woman, as the person I am, it was a decision to deserve. A decision to feel entitled, and not like the world's bitch out to make friends at any cost.

Woah Netzach,

Hey I am not trying to make a litmus test here at all...nor do I see this as any magic dust.

I'm not sure what to make of your fake it till you make it comment...trying to see the positive side of it, the word perseverance comes to mind.

The fact is Netzach this discussion is more about dispelling the fantasy magic dust concept of power. All I am doing is bringing back to real and saying that there are things, real down to earth things which when added together is what brings about power. Things like a person being who they are at an honest level. People who are confident in who they are. People who are repsonsible and know what they want.

What submissive would submit to a person who is faking, inexperienced, not responsible, self-proclaimed, disrespectful, and feels they are not accountable to anyone but their own lustful apitities?

A person can't just snap their fingers and say trust me and that makes it so. Trust is "EARNED" and with that comes respect. And where trust and respect are present it allows another person to give themselves to you by their choice. To give you the reins and withhold their will and let your take control.

This discussion Netzach is about what was done to "EARN" that trust. It is not about making up a litmus test of any sort. So let me post this list of words again...and you tell me that they have nothing to do with earning a person's trust and respect.

Realness - A submissive is attracted to a person who is not faking but is real. They aren't trying to roleplay an image, they are in fact a dominant person who knows what they want.

Knowledge - A submissive doesn't want to place themselves in the hands of a person who doesn't know what they are doing or have some kind of knowledge where they are going.

Responsibility - To be a Dom or a Domme requires responsibility. When someone places themselves under your control, you are responsible on a number of different levels.

Earned - Nothing can replace the personal knowledge of experience. The victories and failures alike and determination. The time and effort and everything else that is invested to become the person where you stand. The trusts you have kept faithfully, the respect and honor that is given to you by those who have watched you and the decisions you have made.

Inner-Strength - The things you believe in and stand for as a person.

Position - To be called Dom or Domme is a position of trust. It is not a position you take lightly by those who call you such. Not everyone calls you this only a select few and by them doing so you take that position of authority accepting the prevlidges, duties and responsibilities of that position.

Taking Charge - or another word is "Control" - One who is not afraid to make decisions. One who is willing to act, initiate and dominate. One who understands that to control another they first should be in control of themselves.

Respect - To have a respect for themselves and for those in thier charge. They hold themselves accountable and treat others with dignity.

Accountability - To be honest, respectful and responsible first to themselves and then to those in their charge. There is no room for inflated egos.

Prudence "and/or" wisdom - A Dom or Domme should use wisdom and prudence as they make decisions. Try not to let their good judgement be clouded.

The "Human Will" - perhaps the place where the origin of power can be found.


When a Dom or Domme displays Realness, Knowledge, Responsibility, Inner-Strength, Respect, Accountability and Wisdom, it is then they Earn the Trust and Respect neccessary for another to willfully choose to place themself under their Control and give to them a Position called Dom or Domme.

A submissive using their will to submit to another and a Dom or Domme using their will to accept everything that goes with that submission. And if power does originate from the human will, then that is two people exchanging power.

There is nothing anywhere that says you must have all of these nor hold any of these by a certain measure or you cannot be a Dom or Domme, but I think it is important for those who are Doms or Dommes to be seeking to grow in these areas of their lives, and for those considering to become a Dom or Domme to understand that these things are part and parcel to being one.

because the true power of a Dom or Domme is not that they dress up in leather or can use a whip or flogger effectively or make a person cum 10 different ways.

It is the power of who they are as a person which attracts those around them and allows others to trust, respect and honor them.

I think when you put the above and combine it with the below, you end up with something a little more substantial and helpful than fake till you make it...and though that may have been your path it does not need to be the path others have to follow.

Confidence (justified)
+
Ability (demonstrated)
+
Willingness (inherent)
+
Control (exercised)
=
Power

So if you want to call that a litmus test then go for it. I don't see it that way.

 

[RJMasters]

*grin* And to think, I stopped a nostagic bout of Ultimate Doom to look at the board....

Hmmm How bout we start this book one chapter at a time - Just the way you would talk to someone else about it?
(Also that makes it easier for people to tell me I'm full of shit- in detail)

I don't think I've ever told anyone "You've either got it, or not.".
Except...When talking about the actual desire itself.
Otherwise youre just copping out. You do either have the desire or not.. If you have the desire ... Then perhaps the other parts can be aquired.

{And RJ, You might be a pain in the ass, but then at least you're one that asks good questions..*shrug* I've been called a pain in the ass..Doesn't bother me a bit}

IMHO..I guess the place to start is sort of in reverse order.
Because it all devolves back around, sooner or later, to -
Control.
If you can't control yourself, how do you expect to control anyone else?
Responsibility
Inner-Strength
Position
Taking Charge -
Respect
Accountability
The Human Will
All the above have to do with control..Either control of the self, or control of the situation. Though they do have other aspects to them as well.
First one has to control the self.

I'm with ya...(I was responding while you posted this...)

I have to agree that if you are going to talk about power....then "control" is probably the central key.

I agree that control of self is important before they should be able to control another....

So question 1 is:
How does one be self-controlled?

Question 2 is:
Can those same things, which a person does to be in control of themselves, be also used in a simillar way in the control of another?

 

[Netzach]

I'm saying no one springs out of the Dominant womb fully formed. If you think that no-one will or should submit to someone who's imperfect, whose confidence is not established, who doesn't know exactly who they are yet, whose motives are not purely altruistic, well I don't think anyone would wind up doing D/s. What if you make a mistake? Welcome to the world of humanity. What if you flub around in the kiddie pool for a while and decide what you actually like, what actually turns you on? Again, I think this makes you a richer person.

I think that we err on the side of stalling novice Dom/mes if anything, sometimes, as a general thing. I wish I'd been a bit MORE risk-taking in my early 20's, a bit less concerned with outcomes and being universally stamped with the "safe player" seal of approval.

After all, one can be trustworthy, honest, self-posessed, in control and utterly boring beyond belief with no ability to inject magic or interest into a scene or a sex life.

And scenes and sex life are the crux of it for me. Everyday reality has that flavor, but it's not the same as creating that space, creating the zany sacred reality of the zone.

However, that's very subjective, and there's always someone out there for everyone's tastes.

I think people trust me because I am remarkably candid, not too terrificly judgemental, I've put in the technical time on the SM learning curve and I admit when I don't know what the fuck I am doing, I am discreet and I am loyal, I like to laugh and I listen to people very earnestly when they come to me hoping to be listened to.

Are those part of power?

My power, yes. I don't think it holds for everyone else. Power, as I've been saying, is a remarkably individual thing.

Woah Netzach,

Hey I am not trying to make a litmus test here at all...nor do I see this as any magic dust.

I'm not sure what to make of your fake it till you make it comment...trying to see the positive side of it, the word perseverance comes to mind.

The fact is Netzach this discussion is more about dispelling the fantasy magic dust concept of power. All I am doing is bringing back to real and saying that there are things, real down to earth things which when added together is what brings about power. Things like a person being who they are at an honest level. People who are confident in who they are. People who are repsonsible and know what they want.

What submissive would submit to a person who is faking, inexperienced, not responsible, self-proclaimed, disrespectful, and feels they are not accountable to anyone but their own lustful apitities?

A person can't just snap their fingers and say trust me and that makes it so. Trust is "EARNED" and with that comes respect. And where trust and respect are present it allows another person to give themselves to you by their choice. To give you the reins and withhold their will and let your take control.

This discussion Netzach is about what was done to "EARN" that trust. It is not about making up a litmus test of any sort. So let me post this list of words again...and you tell me that they have nothing to do with earning a person's trust and respect.

Realness - A submissive is attracted to a person who is not faking but is real. They aren't trying to roleplay an image, they are in fact a dominant person who knows what they want.

Knowledge - A submissive doesn't want to place themselves in the hands of a person who doesn't know what they are doing or have some kind of knowledge where they are going.

Responsibility - To be a Dom or a Domme requires responsibility. When someone places themselves under your control, you are responsible on a number of different levels.

Earned - Nothing can replace the personal knowledge of experience. The victories and failures alike and determination. The time and effort and everything else that is invested to become the person where you stand. The trusts you have kept faithfully, the respect and honor that is given to you by those who have watched you and the decisions you have made.

Inner-Strength - The things you believe in and stand for as a person.

Position - To be called Dom or Domme is a position of trust. It is not a position you take lightly by those who call you such. Not everyone calls you this only a select few and by them doing so you take that position of authority accepting the prevlidges, duties and responsibilities of that position.

Taking Charge - or another word is "Control" - One who is not afraid to make decisions. One who is willing to act, initiate and dominate. One who understands that to control another they first should be in control of themselves.

Respect - To have a respect for themselves and for those in thier charge. They hold themselves accountable and treat others with dignity.

Accountability - To be honest, respectful and responsible first to themselves and then to those in their charge. There is no room for inflated egos.

Prudence "and/or" wisdom - A Dom or Domme should use wisdom and prudence as they make decisions. Try not to let their good judgement be clouded.

The "Human Will" - perhaps the place where the origin of power can be found.


When a Dom or Domme displays Realness, Knowledge, Responsibility, Inner-Strength, Respect, Accountability and Wisdom, it is then they Earn the Trust and Respect neccessary for another to willfully choose to place themself under their Control and give to them a Position called Dom or Domme.

A submissive using their will to submit to another and a Dom or Domme using their will to accept everything that goes with that submission. And if power does originate from the human will, then that is two people exchanging power.

There is nothing anywhere that says you must have all of these nor hold any of these by a certain measure or you cannot be a Dom or Domme, but I think it is important for those who are Doms or Dommes to be seeking to grow in these areas of their lives, and for those considering to become a Dom or Domme to understand that these things are part and parcel to being one.

because the true power of a Dom or Domme is not that they dress up in leather or can use a whip or flogger effectively or make a person cum 10 different ways.

It is the power of who they are as a person which attracts those around them and allows others to trust, respect and honor them.

I think when you put the above and combine it with the below, you end up with something a little more substantial and helpful than fake till you make it...and though that may have been your path it does not need to be the path others have to follow.

Confidence (justified)
+
Ability (demonstrated)
+
Willingness (inherent)
+
Control (exercised)
=
Power

So if you want to call that a litmus test then go for it. I don't see it that way.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Almost every thing I've read in this thread says 'SAFE, SANE AND CONSENSUAL' to me. (do you hear that reverb?) And in all honesty, I'm tired of that discussion. I don't believe in SSC anymore than I believe in using safewords.

They are all just bogus words and phrases to make us appear more respectable and conscientious to the rest of the world.

It's all bullshit. We're all in this for whatever kind of kinky, perverted fun we, as individuals, can get.






But then again, what the fuck do I know?

 

[RJMasters]

This I can agree with.. though I don't necessarily feel that either respect or trust/trustworthiness go part and parcel with power.

Just my .02 cents. Interesting thread, thus far, RJ.

Glad you joined the discussion and find it interesting...

To respond...

Firstly, I have to say that I don't think you can teach someone to be trustworthy. That's a character trait. You have it, or you don't. It's like the desire to cheat.. you may not always be cheating, but you're always thinking about it.


hmmmm...well I kinda see what you mean, but have to tell ya my mom did a pretty good job teaching me lying was wrong with a broom stick when I was young. Part of telling the truth is part of being trustworthy...so I guess I don't agree with this completely. I do agree that a person has to choose to be trustworthy...and by making a choice to be so, I think effects the type of Dom or Domme they are and also effects weather or not others are willing to give any control to them through submission. That is why I think it does have a relationship to power. Since we are talking about a submissive using their will to make a choice of consent to submit, I think a person wanting to be a Dom or Domme should then understand that.

You see.... I see this as a logical progression. A new person trying to understand what it means to be a Dom or Domme often come with all kinds of misconceptions...of course I use the "I am a Dom get on your knees and suck it bitch" as an extreme example, but we have seen that. I am sure that you would agree with me that approach is not going to cut it.

The new person who is honest about understanding what it means to be a Dom or Domme will then ask, if that is not what being a Dom or Domme is about, then what is? How do I get a submissive to submit to me?

The answer is of course you don't, they either choose to or they choose not to, it is not something that can be forced, however what we can tell you is that one of the things which help a submissive to choose to submit is trustworthyness. So if your honest about wanting to be a Dom or a Domme, one place you can start is by asking yourself how trustworthy are you. If you find that the answer is to date, you have been less of a trustworthy person that you know you should be, then use your will...and begin to choose to be a trustworthy person. If you don't want to do that, then you should ask yourself why would anyone want to choose to submit to you?

And that's kinda how I see this.


Power exchange is just a general term, meant to include any and all levels of exchange of control between a Dominant and a submissive... it is not particular, nor does it in any way define what happens between us.


Well I agree it is a general term, and I don't think we are going to cover every aspect and as you said it varies differently from couple to couple. But I do think there is value here in focusing on some things that are common.

I guess you could swap out the word power with some other words we have been discussing...for example

Power exchange
Control exchange
Respect exchange
Accountability exchange
Trust exchange


etc...you get the picture.

Anyways thanks for your .02 cents. I certainly have not arrived or mastered any or all of these areas. I am a work in progress to be sure.

 

[RJMasters]

I'm saying no one springs out of the Dominant womb fully formed. If you think that no-one will or should submit to someone who's imperfect, whose confidence is not established, who doesn't know exactly who they are yet, whose motives are not purely altruistic, well I don't think anyone would wind up doing D/s. What if you make a mistake? Welcome to the world of humanity. What if you flub around in the kiddie pool for a while and decide what you actually like, what actually turns you on? Again, I think this makes you a richer person.

I think that we err on the side of stalling novice Dom/mes if anything, sometimes, as a general thing. I wish I'd been a bit MORE risk-taking in my early 20's, a bit less concerned with outcomes and being universally stamped with the "safe player" seal of approval.

After all, one can be trustworthy, honest, self-posessed, in control and utterly boring beyond belief with no ability to inject magic or interest into a scene or a sex life.

And scenes and sex life are the crux of it for me. Everyday reality has that flavor, but it's not the same as creating that space, creating the zany sacred reality of the zone.

However, that's very subjective, and there's always someone out there for everyone's tastes.

I think people trust me because I am remarkably candid, not too terrificly judgemental, I've put in the technical time on the SM learning curve and I admit when I don't know what the fuck I am doing, I am discreet and I am loyal, I like to laugh and I listen to people very earnestly when they come to me hoping to be listened to.

Are those part of power?

My power, yes. I don't think it holds for everyone else. Power, as I've been saying, is a remarkably individual thing.

Prolly right Netzach in all you just said. And yes it is an individual thing. The things I pull out of that last paragraph...you are candid a form of honesty, you have spent the time to learn...hence you have knowledge and experience...discreet and loyal...forms of trustworthiness.

Teaching someone this doesn't imply they cannot be a Dom or Domme or that they should remain idle. But I can see how it would be helpful for those looking for answers and possible a direction to walk towards and grow in.

 

[Netzach]

Almost every thing I've read in this thread says 'SAFE, SANE AND CONSENSUAL' to me. (do you hear that reverb?) And in all honesty, I'm tired of that discussion. I don't believe in SSC anymore than I believe in using safewords.

They are all just bogus words and phrases to make us appear more respectable and conscientious to the rest of the world.

It's all bullshit. We're all in this for whatever kind of kinky, perverted fun we, as individuals, can get.










But then again, what the fuck do I know?

Thank you for calling it like it is, although I don't see SSC as bogus, just limited and not intended to be used the way people use it.

When I have a newbie looking to me for education, I tend to ask what their turn-on is and then I try to arm them with the information that will allow them to make it happen assuming it's not underage, doesn't have fur or feathers, and is competent to say "yeah let's do that."

If you are looking to get into a heavy objectification scene, a lot of chitchat may get in your way. I think respect is important, but sometimes that means respecting the fetish more than the person, if that makes sense. I think casual and spontaneous interaction does not always mean cheap and easy -- that's an imported morality from the vanilla world that I personally reject. Some of the most profound times I've ever had have been with people whose last names I do not and will not ever know.

I think it's fine if we pursue our own ends, that said, no one should poke out an eye.

 

[RJMasters]

Almost every thing I've read in this thread says 'SAFE, SANE AND CONSENSUAL' to me. (do you hear that reverb?) And in all honesty, I'm tired of that discussion. I don't believe in SSC anymore than I believe in using safewords.

They are all just bogus words and phrases to make us appear more respectable and conscientious to the rest of the world.

It's all bullshit. We're all in this for whatever kind of kinky, perverted fun we, as individuals, can get.






But then again, what the fuck do I know?

I have never kept it a secret that I am a safe, sane and consentual kinda guy. I believe in the common sense of it.

I agree kinky perverted fun is a motivating factor...question though, with whom would you consider having this fun? My money is on a person that you have some trust or respect for.

And you know a fucking lot.

 

[RJMasters]

Thank you for calling it like it is, although I don't see SSC as bogus, just limited and not intended to be used the way people use it.

When I have a newbie looking to me for education, I tend to ask what their turn-on is and then I try to arm them with the information that will allow them to make it happen assuming it's not underage, doesn't have fur or feathers, and is competent to say "yeah let's do that."

If you are looking to get into a heavy objectification scene, a lot of chitchat may get in your way. I think respect is important, but sometimes that means respecting the fetish more than the person, if that makes sense. I think casual and spontaneous interaction does not always mean cheap and easy -- that's an imported morality from the vanilla world that I personally reject. Some of the most profound times I've ever had have been with people whose last names I do not and will not ever know.

I think it's fine if we pursue our own ends, that said, no one should poke out an eye.

Again would agree, but would also make a distinction on what the goal is...if it is pursuing kink and fetish fun...or a long term relationship.

I am sure you do not apply the same thinking to your SO as you just described above. Nothing wrong in onetime scene events that happen and your right it doesn't always mean cheap or easy.

But if the goal is more long term, I think the nature of that kind of relationship brings with it a different focus.

 

[sunfox]

Glad you joined the discussion and find it interesting...

To respond...

Firstly, I have to say that I don't think you can teach someone to be trustworthy. That's a character trait. You have it, or you don't. It's like the desire to cheat.. you may not always be cheating, but you're always thinking about it.


hmmmm...well I kinda see what you mean, but have to tell ya my mom did a pretty good job teaching me lying was wrong with a broom stick when I was young. Part of telling the truth is part of being trustworthy...so I guess I don't agree with this completely. I do agree that a person has to choose to be trustworthy...and by making a choice to be so, I think effects the type of Dom or Domme they are and also effects weather or not others are willing to give any control to them through submission. That is why I think it does have a relationship to power. Since we are talking about a submissive using their will to make a choice of consent to submit, I think a person wanting to be a Dom or Domme should then understand that.

I lie at times, and yet am considered to be extremely trustworthy by everyone who knows me. I won't lie to my friends (though sometimes I think they wish I would ), but I will lie -for- them, or for people that I love. Someone that I loved enormously didn't always tell me the truth, but I trusted him implicitly despite that shortcoming.

The truth is part of trustworthiness, but it is not, by a long ways, the sum total of the whole, and a broomstick can't give you what you don't already have the seeds of inside you anyway. Mom could have whacked you till you were 40, and if you were a person who liked to manipulate and trick people, you'd just be a whole lot better at hiding it.

I don't disagree that a Dominant needs to work towards their submissive's trust.. but I don't agree that having a merit badge in trustworthiness is going to make it happen.

You see.... I see this as a logical progression. A new person trying to understand what it means to be a Dom or Domme often come with all kinds of misconceptions...of course I use the "I am a Dom get on your knees and suck it bitch" as an extreme example, but we have seen that. I am sure that you would agree with me that approach is not going to cut it.

I don't think there is a way to understand what it means to be a Dominant, not completely. Because depending upon their personality, and their future submissive's personality, it can become nearly anything. Each person's journey to achieving Dominance in a way that they see it is going to be different in part, if not entirely, from the next person's.

Who are we to say that the next person who comes along wanting to know what it means to be a Dominant, isn't the type of person to whom 'get on your knees and suck it, bitch' would hold appeal? And who are we to say that his/her future submissive wouldn't love that about them?

The new person who is honest about understanding what it means to be a Dom or Domme will then ask, if that is not what being a Dom or Domme is about, then what is? How do I get a submissive to submit to me?

The answer is of course you don't, they either choose to or they choose not to, it is not something that can be forced, however what we can tell you is that one of the things which help a submissive to choose to submit is trustworthyness. So if your honest about wanting to be a Dom or a Domme, one place you can start is by asking yourself how trustworthy are you. If you find that the answer is to date, you have been less of a trustworthy person that you know you should be, then use your will...and begin to choose to be a trustworthy person. If you don't want to do that, then you should ask yourself why would anyone want to choose to submit to you?

And that's kinda how I see this.

It seems a given to me that being untrustworthy in a sort of relationship where one of the pair has to allow you to use a flogger/whip/crop/clamps/insert painful object here on them, or tie them up, would not go over well. If that is a piece of shocking news to a prospective Dominant, then they'd best not mind it if I snicker at them very rudely for a very long time.

It's a matter of maturity, understanding that trust, respect, and communication are important in any relationship one wishes to cultivate, be that a D/s relationship of any sort, a friendship, or a vanilla relationship. If the Dom/me is immature, any amount of power or trustworthiness won't matter in the end.

 

[Netzach]

Again would agree, but would also make a distinction on what the goal is...if it is pursuing kink and fetish fun...or a long term relationship.

I am sure you do not apply the same thinking to your SO as you just described above. Nothing wrong in onetime scene events that happen and your right it doesn't always mean cheap or easy.

But if the goal is more long term, I think the nature of that kind of relationship brings with it a different focus.

I don't apply the same thinking to my SO. But when you say "kink and fetish fun" you are missing the kind of connection I am talking about.

You are missing the kind of meaning that having your fist up a total stranger can hold, in the right context. You're missing the feelings of bond, mutual transgression, love of the same thing, worship of the same leathery God.

I think most people outside of a very tight knit leather family/community aren't going to understand exactly what I mean, but those who are in such a community almost always will.

Some of the scenes I've had with the people I don't know much about have been better than some of the scenes I've had with my SO. I didn't pick him because he's the perfect SM partner for me-- I picked him because he's the perfect partner for me. Ice dancers don't always marry their pair, either.

Anyhow, I do think that power ought to entail some sense of accountability. I've given up saying I'm SSC -- I play like a person who belives in karma. Often that's more stringent.

However, I don't think that that accountability, that moral imperative, that confidence, that conscientiousness are in the definition of power. Part of my power is an unholy persuasiveness, and that can certainly be used for evil ends as well as good. I'm quite the saleswoman.

Plenty have risen to power in the world who have little of any of the above. To say that someone is weak and insignificant when they have bad qualities and great power is to ignore a dragon in your midst.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I have never kept it a secret that I am a safe, sane and consentual kinda guy. I believe in the common sense of it.

I agree kinky perverted fun is a motivating factor...question though, with whom would you consider having this fun? My money is on a person that you have some trust or respect for.

And you know a fucking lot.

Yes, SSC is all common sense and that's why I think it's all bogus lip service. And I don't want to get into a conversation about SSC because not only am I tired of it but it's not the obvious topic. (Although it is the underlying one.) And it goes without saying, because to begin with, no one gives a damn, but I don't run with scissors.

The bulk of this conversation is about ethics, morals and maturity.... which is what SSC fundamentally is. You either have it or you don't.

So to answer your question... if you (rhetorically) don't have the level of ethics, morals and maturity that meets mine, I can't trust and respect you and we won't be playing. That's how it works.

 

[lorddragonwolf]

Yes, SSC is all common sense and that's why I think it's all bogus lip service. And I don't want to get into a conversation about SSC because not only am I tired of it but it's not the obvious topic. (Although it is the underlying one.) And it goes without saying, because to begin with, no one gives a damn, but I don't run with scissors.

The bulk of this conversation is about ethics, morals and maturity.... which is what SSC fundamentally is. You either have it or you don't.

So to answer your question... if you (rhetorically) don't have the level of ethics, morals and maturity that meets mine, I can't trust and respect you and we won't be playing. That's how it works.

tag your it.

 

[A Desert Rose]

tag your it.

Of course I am. You make it so.

 

[rosco rathbone]

They are all just bogus words and phrases to make us appear more respectable and conscientious to the rest of the world.

It's all bullshit. We're all in this for whatever kind of kinky, perverted fun we, as individuals, can get.

*sound of nail being hit on head*

 

[rosco rathbone]

And scenes and sex life are the crux of it for me. Everyday reality has that flavor, but it's not the same as creating that space, creating the zany sacred reality of the zone.

This whole thread is about the basic Richard49 breakdown...BDSM as "scenes and sex life" versus BDSM as traditional male dominant relationship/ display of traditional values & character.

 

[robynwildchild]

yes interesting post

what is power.
by definition:
1.The ability or capacity to perform or act effectively.
2. A specific capacity, faculty, or aptitude.

its a long definition i picked up the ones i felt that qualified simplictically..

power is what energy we hold and share that regulates our daily acitivies..
it comes from what we decide to carry out and how certain our decisions are that lead to the goal.. the more goals you meet the more power you hold. the ways we gain more power are and have been lucritive over the centuries.. using amoral ways to achiveive goals.. murder, deception, manipulation, abuse and torture.

one thing is certain, actions always increase our powers that be. inaction is the enemy. if you can think of someone who has ever had absolut power over you they were active and you were passive. they covered their identity with secrecy or deception.. creative people are highly powerful because they create what they want infront of them on many level.
power is a force that is ruled by the laws of cause and effect.

~damn now i gotta go buy this book i wanted to read a couple months ago.. thanks for reminding me!

 

[Netzach]

This whole thread is about the basic Richard49 breakdown...BDSM as "scenes and sex life" versus BDSM as traditional male dominant relationship/ display of traditional values & character.

Yuh huh. An interesting line in the sand, I would not have articulated it that way, but you are perceptive, perhaps. And maybe that's why I have a very strong itchy reaction when we talk about power in fixed, logical, quantifiable terms.

As much as I'm the top in my personal life I find myself more aligned and more in tune with people who do not have power in a sociopolitical sense.

So what creeps me is not so much that we identify honesty, thought, confidence etc. in people who have power, but in the scary flip side that we begin to infer that people IN power therefore have honesty, thought, confidence, good intentions etc. Which more often than not is not the case.

 

[catalina_francisco]

When I read the first part of your post you seem to focus on "powers" that you refuse to give "ackowledgement/consent to" and because you refuse to acknowledge such, you also give no creedance to those Dom/mes who would use such displays of power in order to prove they are a Dom/me. As you stated this is more of trying to maintain an image rather than actually being a Dom/me.

I don't think you discount these things as "power" but that using money or brute-force to prove Dom/me-hood doesn't work.

I think it is sad when people think these are things to use to lure a submissive....it displays IMHO, a lack of confidence in themselves and low self esteem at the least. And yes, I do discount these things as 'power' in any form. Yes, they can give people, governments etc., power over others, but that is not power as such IMO. I guess it comes back to my spiritual and philosophical view of life in that I see money as usually a false sense of power, and most definately find few, if any loud and showy people who exhibit power despite their personal view they do. In reality, I don't think anyone can have power another does not allow them to have for whatever reason.

Some important refrences you made to power:

I am with someone who is real

The authenticity and realness of the power is directly related to the realness of the person themself. As you mentioned that "this power" finds its source within the Dom/me.

True for the most part. F has had an interesting, if not easy life, and this has served to shape him into the individual he is today with a depth of understanding many of us do not have because we have had a very different life. So then the power he has is related to his ability to overcome and to survive, and his own spirituality, and my interpretation and appreciation of that.

I took charge of my own destiny by going back to complete my education

Knowledge is power/empowering.

Self knowledge is more empowering than anything that can be learned from the classroom or workplace. Without that knowledge and empowerment I would never have taken the steps I did.


"Taking charge" is another important thing you mentioned when you said I took charge of my own destiny....to me this is like what you said earlier in your post......not afraid to take responsibility

Assuming or taking on responsibility IMO is a critical aspect of understanding the nature of power and how it is used.

Taking charge of one's own life is the key to survival, and not becoming dependent simply because you have no other choice, or feel you have no other choice. Too many times people mistake submissives for people who need another to direct their lives because they are incapable, and too many times people identify themselves as submissive simply because they want another to take responsibility for them and their life.

In case anyone missed it, Cat provided a very good example of what it means to obtain power. The goal was - not to be dependant upon anyone or anything, which required her to overcoming defeceincies in her life. The path she took was to return to school and get a better education, "In order to be in a "position" of empowment". It required taking on responsibilities and facing challenges, which in the end "Earned" her freedom and power, to which I say well done Cat

TY, though I felt I was empowered before the education and career. They were just necessary to provide for myself and my children's future in a commercial sense. The responsibilities and challenges had already been a mainstay of my life and had actually made my study a lot easier because I didn't have to open a text book to know how to survive in adverse situations, and as such applied a lot of life skills to my work which gave me the edge others craved but couldn't get from reading and attending lectures and seminars...lol, had to be some compensation for going through one challenge after another, right?!!

Power comes in many forms, but most people do not truly possess it, but are often possessed by it in it's many illusionistic states.

Catalina

 

[Marquis]

So what creeps me is not so much that we identify honesty, thought, confidence etc. in people who have power, but in the scary flip side that we begin to infer that people IN power therefore have honesty, thought, confidence, good intentions etc. Which more often than not is not the case.

That sounds like democrat lies to betray the president in this time of war.

 

[sunfox]

That sounds like democrat lies to betray the president in this time of war.

You don't want to get me started on that subject.

 

[RJMasters]

This whole thread is about the basic Richard49 breakdown...BDSM as "scenes and sex life" versus BDSM as traditional male dominant relationship/ display of traditional values & character.

Well now that you mention it...BING! Give that man a cigar.

I think its fair to say that me and Richard share some similar views that there is a difference between D/s and BDSM. I think the differences of focus and approach are signifigant.

When I read Net's fake it till you make it philosophy and many of your posts RR, such as to ADR's comment in this thread - "its all about the kink"....I realize that both of your views and approach to the lifestyle are quite different in how I view things.

I have never walked the paths either of you two have nor based on what I have read would care to, though I have learned to expand my views and at least can appreciate where you two come from and why. On the surface...there is an appearance that is not returned.

For me D/s relationships are not created because of sexual kink commonality(sometimes they can and do). The way "I" see things, Sexual Kink has is proper place within a D/s relationship. I never would respect the kink over respecting a person. I might respect a kink because I respect the person that desires it. Sexual experience is only a small part of an overall realtionship between a dominant and their submissive. And that is why I hold a distinction between D/s and BDSM as one seems to focus on the sexual expeience where the other is more about the inner dynamics of overall relationship building.

I don't see the need to be critical of either approach...do you?

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

So what creeps me is not so much that we identify honesty, thought, confidence etc. in people who have power, but in the scary flip side that we begin to infer that people IN power therefore have honesty, thought, confidence, good intentions etc. Which more often than not is not the case.

That's exactly what I was thinking

~anelize

 

[RJMasters]

Oh for fuck's sakes! Someone just shoot me now plz.

Posting to Lit is like pissing in the wind...its only fun or worth it if your into watersports.