Precision or pedantry: who, whom, whoever, whomever

[Pure]

i believe no white person has ever learned quechua. though some believe they have, it turns out--happens in other languages-- they're speaking a kind of 'baby talk' designed by that Native People, to be learnable by an idiot.

 

[Guest]

good points dr.

as i said, the word 'whom' virtually disappears in colloquial speech, so the questions are for the literati and obsessive compulsives. issues of commas--based on the 'breath' idea--are fuzzy in everyday speech;

This might be off topic, but the "breath = comma" is a cue used in performing choral music (and for woodwind and brass players in instrumental music as well). Since where the chorus breathes in a phrase is often important, the director will sometimes place the breath according to the text, using the commas (or periods, if they occur) as a guide. I've never trained as a director or conductor, but I've marked breaths in my music often enough.

I use "the breath test" when deciding about commas because I read everything aloud (often to see if I can do it with a straight face -- anything that embarrasses me to hear gets cut, which can make for a very humiliating evening at the keyboard). For me, it works, but it may be the years of vocal training coming into play, or a side effect of the kind of rhythm I try to build into my prose. Of course, sometimes you just have to fight with the blasted things until you beat them into submission.

My personal punctuation goblin is the elipse. Those three little dots will pop up all over the place if I don't watch it, usually wiggling into the dialogue. I suspect it's because people don't actually speak in nice, easily diagramed, grammatically accurate sentences, but if you tried to pull a David Manet in a short story no one would understand anything your characters said. Without the extra cues of vocal nuance and body language, a fair bit of what we communicate in speech is lost (as I'm sure many people who communicate a good deal via IM and Email have discovered). If I try to give a character every twitch, squirm, and dynamic variance that would occur in actual speech, he or she would seem afflicted with Tourette's Syndrome (or at least that's how it looks in the edits!) Thus, the elipse gets drafted, despite my best efforts. I always imagine "reading" an elipse would require lifting one's gaze into the middle distance with a certain soulful expression, which is enough to make me swat them like roaches.

Try as I might to write with all my punctuation lined up and all my grammar in order, usually I end up writing like I speak. Apparently, I speak with a lot of commas.

 

[Penelope Street]

This might be off topic, but the "breath = comma" ...

Hi Malachiteink,

I suppose it might be a little off topic, but at least it's not about sports, cars, or poker, so I think you're safe. Pause = comma is pretty much my rule of thumb too, but I stay away from elipses; wouldn't want to ruffle our dear Rumpie.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I always imagine "reading" an elipse would require lifting one's gaze into the middle distance with a certain soulful expression, which is enough to make me swat them like roaches.

*L* I love that! That's kind of the way I feel too. The ellipsis has a kind of tragic feel after a while, the tragedy of characters never being able to finish what they're saying. It gives the dialogue a kind of "Oh well, it doesn't matter anyway..." feel to it.

I've given up on trying to make characters talk like real people. Now I want them to just seem like they talk like real people. I'll screw up who/whom in dialogue, but not in my exposition, and I'm very stingy with my ellipses, though they're so tempting, especially at the end of a scene:

They got in the car anddrove away...

I've developed a fondness for the em dash lately, ever since I was informed that publishers don't like semi-colons at all. They prefer em-dashes.

Not okay: He worked his ass off; that was the way he was.

Okay: He worked his ass off--that was the way he was.

The em dash is also used to show unfinished speech, but only when it's cut off or interrupted, so it doesn't have that whimpy "whatever" feel of the ellipsis.

Actually, though, I don't think there can be many writers who base their punctuation use of the rules of grammar. For me, it's usually instinct and sound.

 

[Guest]

I've developed a fondness for the em dash lately, ever since I was informed that publishers don't like semi-colons at all. They prefer em-dashes.

Not okay: He worked his ass off; that was the way he was.

Okay: He worked his ass off--that was the way he was.

The em dash is also used to show unfinished speech, but only when it's cut off or interrupted, so it doesn't have that whimpy "whatever" feel of the ellipsis.

Actually, though, I don't think there can be many writers who base their punctuation use of the rules of grammar. For me, it's usually instinct and sound.

That's exactly the problem -- the trick of creating a SEEMING (so to speak) of actual speech without actually replicating the starts, fits, gargles and garbles people actually make when they talk. I agree with you, trying to make a character speak in perfectly grammatical English is practically creating a quirk for the character. I do depend on my ears quite a bit.

I was just going over a story last night in which, despite much editing, those damned elipses (and the dashes, which make an entirely different effect in my head) kept showing up because the characters were having trouble saying some things. Ellipses are the only way I can come up with to put in that tendency of a person to hesitate or draw in a breath before saying what is hard to say. I use those dashes for cut offs, usually (now I'm feeling paranoid about it) and for when people interrupt themselves. Although commas are often used for parantheticals (or parentheses, which just seem like lumps of oatmeal in dialogue to me), I like dashes.

You know, it just occured to me that the ellipses and the dashes are a kind of speed control.

 

[Pure]

I can see some use of ellipses where a speaker 'trails off'-- gets lost in thought, doesn't finish a sentence. Otherwise one might need a marker, like 'Joe trailed off," or "Joe did not complete the thought." Presumably, then, the broken piece is punctuated as a sentence.

Joe began, "I think she's one of the most colorful and perplexing". He did not complete the statement, for he could not think of the right words.


The dash seems to serve to mark speech that's interrupted.

I detest the ellipse in exposition, used for 'dramatic pause' or for highlighting. Like the motivational writer who says, "The wealth you can accumulate in your lifetime is... enormous...but you...must follow... the simple rules I'm giving you."

 

[Guest]

I can see some use of ellipses where a speaker 'trails off'-- gets lost in thought, doesn't finish a sentence. Otherwise one might need a marker, like 'Joe trailed off," or "Joe did not complete the thought." Presumably, then, the broken piece is punctuated as a sentence.

Joe began, "I think she's one of the most colorful and perplexing". He did not complete the statement, for he could not think of the right words.


The dash seems to serve to mark speech that's interrupted.

I detest the ellipse in exposition, used for 'dramatic pause' or for highlighting. Like the motivational writer who says, "The wealth you can accumulate in your lifetime is... enormous...but you...must follow... the simple rules I'm giving you."

Well, an ellipse is often used to indicate where something has been left out in a quote, so I try VERY hard to make sure that "something" HAS been left out, although I can see I have used it in the role of emphasiser (I hope in a less aggregious manner, although I must confess my guilt.)

Could it be there just aren't enough punctuation marks to actually create written dialog approximating actual speech? Most of our punctuation rules arise from a time when writers were not TRYING to emulate the actual sound of speech (or from a time when everyone spoke those beautiful, complex, completely diagramable sentences with abandon).

I think sometimes I try so hard because the dreaded -ly adverb (especially in an attribution) is anathema so that I am often reluctant to describe HOW a speech is spoken. I do try to add in the physical actions that underline, emphasize, and give layered meaning to speech, but that has its own set of problems.

So, I wonder now if every writer is afflicted with some manner of grammatical/punctuational demon, and if you just have to pick the one or two you can deal with and smack the others whack-a-mole style?

 

[Munachi]

i believe no white person has ever learned quechua. though some believe they have, it turns out--happens in other languages-- they're speaking a kind of 'baby talk' designed by that Native People, to be learnable by an idiot.

well i would disagree with that, particularly in the case of a language (or group of languages) spoken by 8 to 12 million people, with many written down grammar books, institutions like the academia de la lengua quechua, a written tradition dating back to the 16th century (though with strong variations of how it is written) etc. ... i guess this might happen with very small languages though i'd hope that there are methods to deal with it (one being, for example to just live with the language's speakers for a long time - after a while you will notice whether what they speak to each other is different from what they say to you)... and i suppose, yes, to a beginner like me they most likely did speak something simplified. but not to all "white" people (apart from that terms like "white", "indígena", "mestizo" etc. are quite complicated anyway... but i am getting more and more off topic here)

but back to grammar and all that... comma rules are simple in german, really. there are some difficulties, but mainly it's just that if something has a subject and a predicate, it is its own phrase and thus needs to be seperated by a comma... so english comma rules are much more confusing to me...

as for writing "spoken" language, i would suppose you never or very rarely can write it really as spoken. if you just keep in mind that when you speak you have gestures, facial expressions, tone of voice and all kinds of things to help you be clearer, then writing seems to really ask for some extra explanations or clearer language to even that out...

 

[Penelope Street]

On the subject of commas, do these sentences need a comma, or is it optional?

With secret shame, I had awaited the moment when my children would all be in school that I might have some time to myself.

A handful of seconds later, the entry opened to reveal a floral pastel dress and the hourglass frame within.

Upon arrival, I scanned my tranquil parlor and wondered what passions would ever play out there.

 

[sincerely_helene]

On the subject of commas, do these sentences need a comma, or is it optional?

With secret shame, I had awaited the moment when my children would all be in school that I might have some time to myself.

A handful of seconds later, the entry opened to reveal a floral pastel dress and the hourglass frame within.

Upon arrival, I scanned my tranquil parlor and wondered what passions would ever play out there.

I thought commas were always optional, aside from lists and dialogue.

That is why I have always felt comfortable abusing them.

 

[Owlwhisper]

.....

 

[Guest]

While I'm not a punctuation expert, I read the commas as optional but appropriate. As I read through each comma it gives me a sense of time's passage by making me pause for a moment; I like that. The momentary pause also reinforces (in my mind, anyway) the causal relationship the sentence might be trying to establish.

I agree with you, Owl. Sometimes a comma isn't so much a matter of grammar as of rhythm. Speech has cadence and beat, and writing does as well. Beautiful or affecting prose should read aloud as well as it reads in the silence of our inner ears.

I always look on punctuation as yet another tool to give meaning to words.

 

[Owlwhisper]

.....

 

[Guest]

I had to smile at your response. I use the terms time and causality, expressing concepts central to a scientist's worldview, while you speak of rhythm and beat, ideas more in tune with writing. My training is showing!

I am laughing also. Those terms are used in music, where I spend a good portion of my life as well! We speak with the vocabulary we know best, I guess. I'm surprised I didn't say "beat" at some point.

 

[Penelope Street]

I thought commas were always optional, aside from lists and dialogue.

That is why I have always felt comfortable abusing them.

You abuse them, do you? Care to share a sample of your wickedness?

 

[Penelope Street]

While I'm not a punctuation expert, I read the commas as optional but appropriate. As I read through each comma it gives me a sense of time's passage by making me pause for a moment; I like that. The momentary pause also reinforces (in my mind, anyway) the causal relationship the sentence might be trying to establish.

I agree with you, Owl. Sometimes a comma isn't so much a matter of grammar as of rhythm. Speech has cadence and beat, and writing does as well. Beautiful or affecting prose should read aloud as well as it reads in the silence of our inner ears.

I always look on punctuation as yet another tool to give meaning to words.

So you both prefer the example sentences with the commas?

 

[Guest]

So you both prefer the example sentences with the commas?

I prefer the versions with the commas. When I read the sentences out loud, the little pauses seemed to give a particular slant to the meaning that was more...well...meaningful that just rushing through the whole thing.

Then again, I tend to like things to build up slowly.

 

[Owlwhisper]

.....

 

[Penelope Street]

Thank you both so much, but no promises about keeping the commas I like the flow better without them, especially the first sentence. Go figure!

 

[sincerely_helene]

You abuse them, do you? Care to share a sample of your wickedness?

Rare is the occasion I can write a sentence without at least two or three, but I think I have improved compared to how I used to be. As long as I routinely go back and re-read aloud each individual paragraph I compose numerous times, then restructure when I feel the commas show redundancy, I can cut my usage in half.

Problem I have with that particular punctuation is that in real life when I speak, I emphasize what I am trying to say by pausing dramatically, widening and locking my gaze intensely on the conversationee to force eye contact, inhale deeply, then nod my head once as I speak the next word.

Example:
Deep in my minds eye, (pause, eye contact, breath in, head nod,) I KNOW that the over-use of commas weakens my writing, (pause, eye contact, breath in, head nod,) BUT it just doesn't seem to read properly without, (pause, eye contact, breath in, head nod,) UNLESS I completely rearrange the sentence.

How it probably could have been written: Deep in my minds eye I know that the over-use of commas weakens my writing, but it just doesn't seem to read properly without unless I completly rearrange the sentence.

How my obsessive side would end up revising it: Though I'm aware deep in my minds eye that the over-use of commas weakens my writing, it just doesn't read properly to me without. Re-arranging the entire sentence is the only method I have found around this obsessive habit.

I'm certainly no authority on punctuation, but I have a feeling the examples you listed would still be ok if you excluded the commas. I would personally have to read them a few times before they would register properly, though. It's just how my brain processes things.

 

[Penelope Street]

With secret shame I had awaited the moment when my children would all be in school that I might have some time to myself.

A handful of seconds later the entry opened to reveal a floral pastel dress and the hourglass frame within.

Upon arrival I scanned my tranquil parlor and wondered what passions would ever play out there.

After reviewing a few of my other stories, I've discovered I usually include commas in sentences like those above, but in the particular story I have in mind, I left almost all of them out. I'm still not sure why I did this; I'd never have even noticed but for the diligence of my editor.

I'm certainly no authority on punctuation, but I have a feeling the examples you listed would still be ok if you excluded the commas. I would personally have to read them a few times before they would register properly, though. It's just how my brain processes things.

Thanks. *sigh* I'm leaning toward doing a major edit and including the commas.

 

[Guest]

After reviewing a few of my other stories, I've discovered I usually include commas in sentences like those above, but in the particular story I have in mind, I left almost all of them out. I'm still not sure why I did this; I'd never have even noticed but for the diligence of my editor.


Thanks. *sigh* I'm leaning toward doing a major edit and including the commas.

Damn, I DO have to hunt until I find that quote about commas...

 

[sincerely_helene]

Thanks. *sigh* I'm leaning toward doing a major edit and including the commas.

I don't think that is necessary. I have noticed many famous authors aren't nearly as inclined to include pauses as frequently as most of us would, so it is probably a writing faux pas you have managed to overcome. Perhaps you are evolving in a postive way. Congrats! ( :dancing nanna: )

 

[Selena_Kitt]

On the subject of commas, do these sentences need a comma, or is it optional?

With secret shame, I had awaited the moment when my children would all be in school that I might have some time to myself.

A handful of seconds later, the entry opened to reveal a floral pastel dress and the hourglass frame within.

Upon arrival, I scanned my tranquil parlor and wondered what passions would ever play out there.

Just the general grammar rules:

2. Use commas after introductory a) clauses, b) phrases, or c) words that come before the main clause.

a. Common starter words for introductory clauses that should be followed by a comma include after, although, as, because, if, since, when, while.

While I was eating, the cat scratched at the door.
Because her alarm clock was broken, she was late for class.
If you are ill, you ought to see a doctor.
When the snow stops falling, we'll shovel the driveway.

However, don't put a comma after the main clause when a dependent (subordinate) clause follows it (except for cases of extreme contrast).

1. She was late for class, because her alarm clock was broken. (incorrect)
2. The cat scratched at the door, while I was eating. (incorrect)
3. She was still quite upset, although she had won the Oscar. (correct: extreme contrast)

b. Common introductory phrases that should be followed by a comma include participial and infinitive phrases, absolute phrases, nonessential appositive phrases, and long prepositional phrases (over four words).

Having finished the test, he left the room.
To get a seat, you'd better come early.
After the test but before lunch, I went jogging.
The sun radiating intense heat, we sought shelter in the cafe.

c. Common introductory words that should be followed by a comma include yes, however, well.

Well, perhaps he meant no harm.
Yes, the package should arrive tomorrow morning.
However, you may not be satisfied with the results.

 

[Pure]

I think the ultimate comma rule should be stated, which has not much to do with breathing: Use a comma to prevent misreading.

In the examples above:

While I was eating, the cat scratched at the door.

Because her alarm clock was broken, she was late for class.

We see that although it's correct 'by the book,' the second sentence can get along quite well without the comma, and the first cannot.