real subs vs. topping from the bottom

[serijules]

There is no "real". You are as real in your mind as you feel. Your "real" may not be my "real", and vice versa, but that only matters if we are in a relationship.

There is a LOT going on in this question, and it can be a firebrand issue pretty easily. So take what is said here with a grain of salt.

I personally see three major sorts of pyl - bottoms, submissives, and slave. They're distinct, but there's a lot of crossover. Subs often bottom, bottoms are frequently submissive in scene, slaves are commonly both submissive and bottoms, etc.

A common mistake, IMO, is to see these as a spectrum, or a sliding graph. Looking at them as points on a line invites unfair comparisons. I've heard people say that slaves act subbier than thou, because they feel they do it better, or that bottoms are just players because they aren't submitting outside of scene.

What-the-fuck-ever.

It's not a spectrum.
It's not a line graph.
It's not a system of ranking.

They are labels, useful, as Fungiug said, to help people find compatible folks. Their worth tends to end right there. Cause, frankly, if I'm in a relationship with someone, I don't care what they call themselves. I care about how compatible they are with me.

In short, "real" doesn't have a lot of worth in this context, IMO.

Topping from the bottom becomes its' own issue. I've seen it. Seen cases of it in other relationships, seen it in my own scenes (not with viv, she's a good girl and I'm a lucky bastard to have her)

When I've seen it in other relationships, I generally feel like it is their business. If the individual involved gets disparaging on the topic, I'll call em on it, but that's about it. Sometimes I have reasons for saying something *shrug* The world is a great big fluid place, and very few rules work as hard and fast as people would like them to.

When I've seen it in my scenes, I take it case by case. Is it a bottom at a party for one scene only? Is said bottom being excessive about it? If so, I will offer a single verbal correction. If it is not heeded, I'll end the scene. Usually though, I can get the person to hush up and work with me with some discussion. Beats an argument mid-scene any day.

If it is in an actual long-standing relationship, I look at it objectively. What did I negotiate? What lines did I draw? How far am I willing to indulge the behaviour? Do I actually consider myself to own this person?

In short, it's fluid. I don't tend to put up with that sort of behaviour too far, but that's just me. Some PYL's are indulgent as hell (as serijules mentioned, little girls, brats, etc tend to be in these sorts of relationships).

My big problem with the phrase "topping from the bottom" is that is is used as a perjorative to cover all sorts of behaviours, manipulative, reverse psychology, actually expressing normal desires, whining, etc. Seems like any time a submissive is *gasp* human, said sub is topping from the bottom in the eyes of some. Whatever.

I will say that I've seen relationships where the sub is plainly in charge. Maybe not of day-to-day details, but they run the ship. Are they submissive? Maybe. I dunno. I will say that they aren't submissive to their supposed PYL by the definitions I have for those labels. It's generally a result of the sub being stronger-willed than the "Dom" and possessed of more vision. Not everyone that picks up a crop should be swinging it.

(There you go, Fungi. Happy?)

EXCELLENT post!

 

[FungiUg]

I'm a real Dominant, wrong thread!

Go start a "Domming from the Top" thread. None of us know how that works, so we'll all listen in.

 

[Homburg]

EXCELLENT post!

Thank you, seri

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I am suddenly getting a very romantic picture of a mature sub teaching her owner how to care and feed her properly.

Could make a good story.

Back on track

I suppose toping from the bottom could be a dominant who wants to be treated as a sub. For example, the “bottom” instruct the “top” to beat them for certain behavior.

My first teacher was actually my submissive many moons ago... now she is my best friend and a good friend to rose..

 

[nickollette]

I'm gonna go out on a whim and say how I interpret things. I'm still finding where I feel I fit in the best, I like the experience and satisfaction that comes from being both the dom and sub but which one I prefer seems to be motivated by what mood I'm in or what I crave at the time. I don't really have any concrete definition to offer for anything, mainly because I think common sense and personal interpretation are all that really matters. I think it can very loosely be similar to religion and love. I can say I believe in god but I refuse to submit to organized religion because I don't want to be told how I have to believe in him, just like I don't think in order to be a d/s you should fit into a molded definition set by someone else. Kinda like love, the wonderful emotions and feelings it brings are totally lost the moment you can define them into the confines of a simple word, it makes it less personal and unique, I think being a d/s is the same way. In the end, the only definition that should matter is the one you assign to it and whether or not you and your partner are on the same page as to what it means within the relationship you choose to have.

Topping from the bottom, I think anyway, mainly for lack of a better word, is pretty good to be summed up as a form of manipulation. I have caught myself doing this a few times, I think anyway. I'm a pretty quiet and reserved person, communication on what I want isn't a strong point. I have found that I will become manipulative, in a sense, in order to achieve what I want. If I feel the need to be choked harder, I'll become disobedient just because I know I can't directly come out and say that's what I need..maybe that just makes me a brat, I don't know.

 

[dark_tipped_rose]

I'm sorry about the whole "real submissive" issue. I didn't even mean for it to cause such a problem . I was just wondering about the whole "topping from the bottom" issue. I didn't even expect to get this many replies. But yeah, thanx, I understand that now.