I also think MsWorthy is damn good, which is why I'm going to take the time to point out what I agree with and respond to one or two points I don't.
Hmmmm. On a very fundamental level that cuts across all kinds of subject matter, I don't think one needs to be personally drawn to something to understand and tolerate it. This undermines the very idea of tolerance. There may be an argument that the BDSM lifestyle is soooo far outside the usual experience that people just couldn't deal with it unless already inclined, but that has been said before about all kinds of underground identities -- black, gay, communist, feminist, etc. -- and it hasn't been true yet. I'll leave the question open, but say that I'm not convinced.
Yup. I wholeheartedly agree, and will pull this into a broader argument below (at the very end).
To the extent that I have one here, my central point is that sex -- in all forms -- is underdiscussed in our culture. When the overwhelming strong, even if decreasingly explicit, position is that even vanilla sex for pure enjoyment is wrong, someone who is interested in even the mildest kink is bound to feel odd, outside, dirty wrong. (more at end)
As I mentioned above, I wholeheartedly agree that teens shouldn't be experimenting with potentially dangerous anything, including extreme sexual practices.
Absolutely, the teens and 20's are a time of exploration and of building a self that is -- often for the first time -- your own. A huge part of that is understandng and accepting your desires, whatever they may be. Knowing and understanding that at least some happy, healthy, whole people derive pleasure from pain, or from the surrender or acceptance of control, can only help that process.
Even if you are not attracted by that kind of activity, knowing that it's out there and not an evil perversion gives you another lens through which to view the world and yourself. It may even help you understand some pale echo of those same desires in yourself when no other way of thinking about them worked.
~hangs head in shame~
You're absolutely right, of course.
If by growing pains you mean growing up and knowing yourself, I couldn't agree more. If you mean going through an agony of self-recrimination -- conscious or not -- thinking that what you want to do is wrong, that you're like a moth drawn to the flame, then I couldn't diasgree more.
BDSM does not have to be a painful choice or lifestyle! (Ah, errr, no pun intended...)
Yes and no. I can see the point about not initiating a conversation about BDSM with your kids. That would just be odd for both parties. Yet I don't see them asking even 'open' parents much about it (again, see the end). But there are a lot of ways to teach other than answering questions and initiating conversations.
Query: You're watching Pulp Fiction with your kids. They laugh at the "Bring out the Gimp" scene; you don't. Do you keep quiet because you don't want to let on that you're in the lifestyle, or do you ask why they thought it was funny and explain that it's yet another ofensive caricature of lifestyle that people hate and mock because it's different.
Prejudices -- and that's what ati-BDSM sentiment is -- bubble up all the time. There are tons of opportunities to identify and counteract those prejudices in your children. Like the first time you hear them use the phrase 'pussy whipped' or 'whipped'.
~skipping the long bit about the role as paragons of normality parents should play in their kids lives ~
Excellent point. I just got back from the BDSM & the law thread. Scary. Still, I think it gopes to when and how you talk to your kids about it, not whether. I think I'm losing my train of thought a bit -- especially since I went and read case law while in the middle of writing... -- but I don't think I'm advocating talking to your kids about your personal experiences. It's possible to educate children about BDSM culture without lewtting on that you're into it. Same as gay, black, hispanic, islamic etc.
See above.
Does this conform with the experience of anyone on this board? Good BDSM information is hard to come by, good people to talk about it with even harder; that's one of the reasons everyone values this place so much. And yes, as you mentioned before, BDSM is way out there -- far enough, I think, that if kids don't specifically know you're receptive they won't ask even an otherwise approachable parent.
Okay, here are the crux(es) of the matter. One of the great fallacies about education in this culture, and it pertains especially to sex and drug education -- is that teaching someone about something encourages them to do it. Teaching kids how to use a condom does not make them more likely to have sex, nor does teaching a young boy about homosexuality make him more likely to go 'cruising' when he gets his first bit of freedom.
The idea that it does is what keeps sexual culture in the US in the dark ages. The Christian coalition would have us believe that as soon as we speak openly about sexual expression in all its forms, we'll be rutting in the streets like rabbits. Bullshit. Knowledge breeds tolerance, not imitation.
That's one big piece of the machinery of sexual repression. The other is actual prejudice, actually thinking that anything other than vanilla sex in a heterosexual marriage is evil.
Few if any people on this board believe the latter; most if not all of us are well beyond judging someone else's sexual practices.
But in some of the posts on this and other threads I've noticed a bit of the former, of the sense that by educating kids about the lifestyle you're somehow bringing them into it. That sense, I might add, is at odds with the also-expressed belief that people will only come to the lifestyle if drawn to it by something inside themselves.
I do not believe that kids will experiment with genital torture just because they know what it is and that it's a sane, healthy and acceptable choice. I do believe that kids are impressionable, which is why I thihk they need to learn about alternative lifestyles then, and from a source they instinctively (even if not always demonstrably) respect.
This is not to say that certain situations like, say, the threat of military prison might not make it extremely dificult to be anything other than totally secretive. I'm not a fanatic and I'm not prostelytizing. Do what seems right to you in your situation.
I hope that was all coherent, I feel like I left a few balls in the air. I hope if that's the case then people will let me know.
-jfaustus
MsWorthy said:
Hmmmm. On a very fundamental level that cuts across all kinds of subject matter, I don't think one needs to be personally drawn to something to understand and tolerate it. This undermines the very idea of tolerance. There may be an argument that the BDSM lifestyle is soooo far outside the usual experience that people just couldn't deal with it unless already inclined, but that has been said before about all kinds of underground identities -- black, gay, communist, feminist, etc. -- and it hasn't been true yet. I'll leave the question open, but say that I'm not convinced.
Yup. I wholeheartedly agree, and will pull this into a broader argument below (at the very end).
To the extent that I have one here, my central point is that sex -- in all forms -- is underdiscussed in our culture. When the overwhelming strong, even if decreasingly explicit, position is that even vanilla sex for pure enjoyment is wrong, someone who is interested in even the mildest kink is bound to feel odd, outside, dirty wrong. (more at end)
As I mentioned above, I wholeheartedly agree that teens shouldn't be experimenting with potentially dangerous anything, including extreme sexual practices.
Absolutely, the teens and 20's are a time of exploration and of building a self that is -- often for the first time -- your own. A huge part of that is understandng and accepting your desires, whatever they may be. Knowing and understanding that at least some happy, healthy, whole people derive pleasure from pain, or from the surrender or acceptance of control, can only help that process.
Even if you are not attracted by that kind of activity, knowing that it's out there and not an evil perversion gives you another lens through which to view the world and yourself. It may even help you understand some pale echo of those same desires in yourself when no other way of thinking about them worked.
~hangs head in shame~
You're absolutely right, of course.
If by growing pains you mean growing up and knowing yourself, I couldn't agree more. If you mean going through an agony of self-recrimination -- conscious or not -- thinking that what you want to do is wrong, that you're like a moth drawn to the flame, then I couldn't diasgree more.
BDSM does not have to be a painful choice or lifestyle! (Ah, errr, no pun intended...)
Yes and no. I can see the point about not initiating a conversation about BDSM with your kids. That would just be odd for both parties. Yet I don't see them asking even 'open' parents much about it (again, see the end). But there are a lot of ways to teach other than answering questions and initiating conversations.
Query: You're watching Pulp Fiction with your kids. They laugh at the "Bring out the Gimp" scene; you don't. Do you keep quiet because you don't want to let on that you're in the lifestyle, or do you ask why they thought it was funny and explain that it's yet another ofensive caricature of lifestyle that people hate and mock because it's different.
Prejudices -- and that's what ati-BDSM sentiment is -- bubble up all the time. There are tons of opportunities to identify and counteract those prejudices in your children. Like the first time you hear them use the phrase 'pussy whipped' or 'whipped'.
~skipping the long bit about the role as paragons of normality parents should play in their kids lives ~
Excellent point. I just got back from the BDSM & the law thread. Scary. Still, I think it gopes to when and how you talk to your kids about it, not whether. I think I'm losing my train of thought a bit -- especially since I went and read case law while in the middle of writing... -- but I don't think I'm advocating talking to your kids about your personal experiences. It's possible to educate children about BDSM culture without lewtting on that you're into it. Same as gay, black, hispanic, islamic etc.
See above.
Does this conform with the experience of anyone on this board? Good BDSM information is hard to come by, good people to talk about it with even harder; that's one of the reasons everyone values this place so much. And yes, as you mentioned before, BDSM is way out there -- far enough, I think, that if kids don't specifically know you're receptive they won't ask even an otherwise approachable parent.
Okay, here are the crux(es) of the matter. One of the great fallacies about education in this culture, and it pertains especially to sex and drug education -- is that teaching someone about something encourages them to do it. Teaching kids how to use a condom does not make them more likely to have sex, nor does teaching a young boy about homosexuality make him more likely to go 'cruising' when he gets his first bit of freedom.
The idea that it does is what keeps sexual culture in the US in the dark ages. The Christian coalition would have us believe that as soon as we speak openly about sexual expression in all its forms, we'll be rutting in the streets like rabbits. Bullshit. Knowledge breeds tolerance, not imitation.
That's one big piece of the machinery of sexual repression. The other is actual prejudice, actually thinking that anything other than vanilla sex in a heterosexual marriage is evil.
Few if any people on this board believe the latter; most if not all of us are well beyond judging someone else's sexual practices.
But in some of the posts on this and other threads I've noticed a bit of the former, of the sense that by educating kids about the lifestyle you're somehow bringing them into it. That sense, I might add, is at odds with the also-expressed belief that people will only come to the lifestyle if drawn to it by something inside themselves.
I do not believe that kids will experiment with genital torture just because they know what it is and that it's a sane, healthy and acceptable choice. I do believe that kids are impressionable, which is why I thihk they need to learn about alternative lifestyles then, and from a source they instinctively (even if not always demonstrably) respect.
This is not to say that certain situations like, say, the threat of military prison might not make it extremely dificult to be anything other than totally secretive. I'm not a fanatic and I'm not prostelytizing. Do what seems right to you in your situation.
I hope that was all coherent, I feel like I left a few balls in the air. I hope if that's the case then people will let me know.
-jfaustus
