Salvation or Damnation???

[Thumper]

I do not believe in hell, or heaven per se. Here is why. The christian faith creates a huge paradox with the concept of hell. They teach that God is "pure" good and "pure" love...if so how could such a being create or even conceive the notion of something so vile and then create souls and send them there. My father, who is a religious fanatic insists we have a choice in the matter. He also clings to the idea that God has a set plan, preordination, if you will. If indeed God knows before we are created, everything that will transpire with our lives what purpose is there in creating a soul that you know you will be sending to hell....only a viciously cruel being would do such a thing....not God. I believe he has a greater purpose for us...not just to create a universe for some 7 or 8 thousand years and then destroy it and send the vast majority of the inhabitants to eternal torture...something man might dream up...not God.

I believe hell was created by man as a means to instill fear in the population. In the dark ages it was forbidden for any but the clergy to posess the bible. Some were put to death for teaching the commoners to read even. The church and the aristocracy formed an unholy alliance in that the church proclaimed that the Nobility ruled as a direct edict of God (divine right) and to question or defy the ruler was to defy God. In return the Regents gave the church much power..and wealth. What better way to keep the "rabble" in line than to threaten them with eternal damnation...

Many scholars have said there is scant mention of any thing such as a "hell" in what few manuscripts have been translated. I believe what we call the bible today has been generously added to by previous writers...

We are supposed to learn...here and when we pass...it does not stop...

http://www.georgeanderson.com/index.html

I posted this link in another thread also...hope it gives comfort.

 

[Rosebud]

I am sorry but i feel that suicide is wrong at any time...There may be an exception to God's or people's rule....i hope so. I lost my dad too...he had cancer and was going quick...thank god his spleen took him sooner...he didn't suffer...in fact his last words were..I am not hurting anymore...i think i will try to sleep now....a few minutes later my mom and brother had him on the floor doing cpr and my little niece was dialing 911. He was the best man that ever walked the face of this earth...and i am thankful that he didn't have any pain when he died. I didn't get to tell him how i felt but i know that he died knowing that we all loved him and would miss him. Your father spared you a great pain and himself too...i would love to think that he went on to something better for that

 

[Deborah]

I'm somewhat reluctant to delve into these subjects lest you think I'm squirrel bait, but Flagg already calls me a "psycho gun-wielding bitch," so what the hell.

Incidentally, Thumper, the word "hell" appears over 50 times in King James and there are many other words which symbolize hell. What manuscripts are you talking about? Something you wrote on toilet paper? Well, don't waste it all, because you are really full of it.

First, let's make a supposition, just for the sake of debate. Let's suppose "the bible" was divinely inspired in the sense that the forty-something men who wrote the 66 books of "the bible" had direction from up above. If we do not make that supposition, this exercise becomes somewhat futile, because if there is no God, then we all die and that's it. End of story. Of course, there could be a God or other higher power(s), but the bible is bullshit. And other religions have "sacred" books which they hold in the same esteem as some do "the bible." But let's just stick to the Christian "bible" because most who have posted on this thread seem to be looking for answers in that direction.

I personally believe that "the bible" was divinely inspired. In my opinion there is no way in Hades that forty plus guys were smart enough to make up all this stuff and get away with it. Had it been a few smart ass chicks I might buy that it's all a fraud. That does not mean there are not errors in the King James version. There are. Want me to prove some? There are more errors in other English translations. This dilemma has to be negated as much as possible by translating difficult and confusing verses back to the original languages, Hebrew and Greek for the most part.

Now, Laurel says "the Bible is so ambiguous and contradictory." OK, I'll agree that's how it seems but I also believe many of those ambiguities and contraditions can be resolved. Xander says "I don't even wanna try to make sense of it because I know I can't." Why do you suppose it is all so confusing? Don't you think the possibility exists that God made this a tough test for a reason? Maybe to find out who really gives a damn?

Before I get into the "suicide" issue and other issues raised in this thread, one more thing. Oh shit! I hate to agree with Flagg on anything but it seems to be the trend lately. I mean, if Lasher and Flagg can agree on something, I suppose I can too. Flagg says, "organised religion is a fucking joke." I agree. The vast majority of organized religions/denominations are a bunch of shit-for-brains who I think are in bigger trouble with God than atheists who are honestly searching for truth. Incidentally, I was once very much Catholic and I was once very much an atheist.

These fucking joke organized religions/denominations are the whores of Revelation. The Roman Catholic Church is "the great whore" and "The Mother of Harlots" of Revelation 17. The RC Church was the first harlot but now there are many others. There was an incident awhile ago when George Bush visited Bob Jones U. and reference was made to the RC Church as "the great whore." Bush got in a little trouble over that one. Another issue was made about BJ U. prohibiting inter-racial dating. Bob Jones III, who now runs that place, is the biggest fucking moron I ever heard. Did you know that the British coronation oath once contained the words, "I do solemnly and sincerely, in the presence of God, profess, testify and declare that I do believe that in the Sacrament of the Lord's supper there is not any transubstantiation of the Elements of Bread and Wince into the Body and Blood of Christ, at or after the consecration thereof by any person whatsoever, and that the Invocation or Adoration of the Virgin Mary or any other Saint, and the Sacrifice of the Mass, as they are now used in the Church of Rome, are superstitious and idolatrous." Say what? Superstitious and idolatrous? Kings and Queens used to say that. What the fuck happened to you Brits? You got so chickenshit. Now all you talk about is fucking chickens.

OK, let's get to the issue of suicide and related matters. Rosebud, I agree with you, suicide is wrong, a sin. There is no person on this earth who has not sinned. The matter from a Christian perspective becomes the issue of repentance. I don't agree with Endlessly's pastor that it is a matter of "did they repent in the split second before the bullet ended the thought process?" Nope, that can't be the answer. Repentance is much more than some last minute actions or words.

Now, Enigma says "What about a man who lives in the deepest jungle of Africa ... He has never even heard of God, or religion ... but he is a good man. Is he going to hell for the sin of living in a jungle?" Good point. Laurel talks about the good atheist and the bad Christian. Good point. What about Jeffrey Dahmer? After he murdered, mutilated and cannibalized, he supposedly became a born-again Christian before he got offed.

What about a young child who dies well before an age capable of contemplating the existence of God? What about a person, otherwise "Godly" in all ways, who commits adultery in a weak moment and is killed in a car crash on the way home from the assignation, and hence no repentance? What about a retarded person who is an intellectual vegetable? Incidentally, I just watched the Howard Stern show of last night I taped. They wouldn't let the retarded dude gang-bang with the two porn stars because of possible legal ramifications, and Hank the drunk dwarf and High Pitch the fat, mostly gay almost virgin (he's the one who got his tits painted green the night before) couldn't get it up. Very boring.

King David committed adultery and arranged the murder of his lover's husband. He was forgiven. The Apostle Paul once sought out Christians to imprison them and send them to their martyred deaths. He even held the coats of those doing the murdering. He was forgiven. Do you really think someone who has committed suicide can not possibly be forgiven? One the other hand, do you really believe that some scum-sucking raping murderer who suddenly "finds God" gets an automatic free pass? Doh! Don't you think that perhaps one day O.J. will have his day in court before God? And perhaps two murder victims will be witnesses and we'll find out whether he really did it or not.

Endlessly was right, there is only one unforgivable sin. In my opinion, no one on this earth has yet committed that sin. That does not, however, mean that all sins such as murder are forgiven. Oh no, I don't think so, but then I'm not the judge of that.

OK, people, the answer to all the above questions is the same. It's the only answer that makes any fucking sense and is biblically correct. How do you suppose all these matters such as suicide, murder, repentance, et al, could be resolved in a manner fitting of a God? So go figure. Somebody tell me what the answer is. I'm not, however, looking for miracles here. If nobody knows the answer, I'll just tell you'uns tomorrow.

BTW, I'm not trying to "convert" anybody to anything. I don't really care what you believe. Not my problem. But some people here are looking for possible answers. I have one that makes sense to me. Until someone has a better explanation, this is my story and I'm sticking to it.

And what makes me think some of you who denigrate "the bible" have never actually read the damn thing, cover-to-cover, even ONCE?

 

[Thumper]

Whole lotta typing and didn't say much...

I do not "denigrate" the bible. I merely recognize the fact that it was written by man and as such it is subject to his/her prejudices and opinions. Not to mention the severely limited understanding of the physical universe. Seven days? Get real, just because man could not conceive of 4.5 billion years doesn't limit God to the mortal timetable.



King James version debbie??? The bible was corrupted by then...I was referring to the dead sea scrolls which have been in the hands of the Israeli Scholars. They have not permitted translation of them except in bits and pieces...

Divinely inspired....the Old Testament reads like greek mythology, not as colorful, but good fantasy nonetheless. I do believe that there is much wisdom to be found in the bible but to take it literally word for word is folly. The bible for a long time was in the hands of very few people, what pray tell would keep them from adding something here or there from time to time? That is putting too much faith in a few humans that we no nothing about. I trust no man or woman when it comes to religion....they can be wrong and have countless times. Ask Galileo or anyone persecuted by the inquisition or witch trials.

Suicide is wrong...but it isn't Gods forgiveness that is in question, that is guaranteed...it is forgiveness of self. When we pass we gain understanding of why we were here and the errors we made and the most difficult thing is forgiving ourselves especially so in a suicide. This is because the pain the person that committed suicide inflicted upon his/her loved ones is known to them. My thoughts on forgiveness...simply this God forgives us when and if we forgive those who have wronged us. Grudges only hurt those who carry them

Rosebud, and others, rest assured those who have passed on know how you feel about them whether you were able to say it or not. They are still with you...

[Edited by Thumper on 07-15-2000 at 01:15 PM]

 

[Deborah]

Thumping Thumper

Thumper, who has been feeding you this baloney? You might consider switching to fish. I hear Jesus is giving some out this morning.

Anybody who would raise the "seven days" argument I would put in the same category as those who raise the "evolution" issue. You ain't using your brain for thinking, honey.

Glad you mentioned the Dead Sea Scrolls, Thumper, not that you have a clue what you're talking about. Most prominent among the Dead Sea Scrolls are two copies of the Book of Isaiah. These DSS Isaiah books are almost 1,000 years older than any Hebrew biblical manuscript previously known. And would you believe? The agreement between the DSS Isaiah and the Masoretic Isaiah is astounding, all things considered. I have copies of most of what has been made available from the Dead Sea Scrolls. I don't see anything that substantially contradicts "the bible." Show me Thumper. What's you talking about? Incidentally, there are a couple DSS fragments that pertain to two of my favorite subjects, Lilith and the Nephilim.

Well Thumper, I have to run off to church now, but later I'll tell you to go to hell, and tell you what hell is, because you obviously don't have a clue about that either.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I liked your post, Endlessly.

I had an interesting discussion with a guy who's having a book published on line. He's calling for a revolution in the Christian world, asking for a more inclusive and exciting church, without so many of the rules and regulations and assorted dogma placed there by men. I told him that, as an atheist, I LIKED the dogma. I like rules, and knowing where you stand, and if you dipped your hand into pot A and kneeled in slot B and confessed to Minister X you would be forgiven of sins 11 through 16 and receive a Get Out Of Purgatory Free card. There's a comfort in ritual that extends to everything in human life, from dating to schooling to religion.

I casually mentioned the fact that if Jesus did NOT rise from the dead and was NOT God incarnate then all Christian churches would have to close up shop, and that these two things are the basis of all christian faith. In other words, you could live the life of Jesus and turn the other cheek all you like, but without the Ressurection being true you don't have Christianity. You can have another church, if you like, based on what a swell guy Jesus was, and you could call it something like "Christianism", but if Jesus didn't die and come back you don't have "Christianity".

I brought this up because we were discusing the nature of faith, and the ressurection absolutely must be taken on faith, and can never be proved, and I find this fascinating and beautiful, and further assures me that anyone who brings forth scientific evidence to discredit religion is in for a losing battle.

Well, this guy, this writer, this man who had studied seven years to become a preacher but was kicked out for being too "passionate", very much disagreed with me. He likened the whole notion of the Ressurection with invented dogma like the concept of the Trinity or Rosary Beads, and felt the church could survive without it. I think he's totally Fruit Loops, Endlessly. What do you think?

[Edited by Dixon Carter Lee on 07-16-2000 at 10:51 AM]

 

[Thumper]

Whatever Deborah....

Hmmm not thinking eh??? Well that would be your opinion and that would put it about somewhere near the bottom of things I concern myself with.....

If you choose to believe in hell that is OK by me...I just think God has more imagination than that....if there is one well, see ya there. I would rather go there than heaven cause ain't nobody I know gonna be there....seems to me it will be a rather sparsely populated region of the afterlife.

in any case you are completely right and I defer to your expertise.....now go thump on your bible and leave us wabbits alone.

Check me out on the other side and we will compare notes....
Laterz.........

[Edited by Thumper on 07-16-2000 at 01:47 PM]

 

[ShynCarolina]

Overwhelmed

When I started this thread, I was hoping for some good information and maybe a few viewpoints. What I got has shown me again the depth and breadth of knowledge and opinions here on this board is...i can't even think of an appropriate word to describe it. All the ones I come up with seem to not be enough.

For all those who have lost loved one recently and have shared that here, my sympathies go out to you all. I believe that all the situations mentioned as well as Deborah's (I think it was Deborah) question about little children too young to understand faith are both covered by a special grace that God has. IMO, I believe that they are all in a special place.

I sometimes wish that my father had been able to do it. I watched him suffer for over 4 yrs trapped in his own body, confined to a wheelchair while his mind was as sharp as it had always been. Unable to speak except by using what little motion he could with his left hand to spell words on a letter board, I saw him literally fade away until the day he died in a hospital holding my hand. I sometimes wonder how things could have been different had he not had to suffer that long.

I only wish that I had the knowledge and words to debate some of the points raised but I would definitely be out of my league. The only thing that I can do is further refine my question. We have talked about the people who have passed to avoid pain to themselves and in their minds to their families and I think general consensus is that those are being cared for. My question then relates to those that are relatively healthy, who for whatever reason (depression, situations, etc.) decide that they can no longer continue. Are they too covered by a special forgiveness or damned for their actions???

I think Endlessly brought up the issue of blasphemy of the holy spirit. That is not something that I am familiar with and would like more information on it if possible.

Again, I thank you all for sharing.

 

[Endlessly]

Juuuuust for you, Dixon, I'm back.

Fruit loops? He can't be fruit loops, he'd have to be a candy bar.. both taste good, but the latter has no nutritional value.. Much like a resurrectionless Christian philosophy.

This is pretty well-known theological doctorine to non-believers, so forgive me if I'm repeating things that are obvious: In the old testament, forgiveness of sins was achieved by the sacrifice of pure animals (oxen, doves, lambs), but there is even a scripture that states that these alone will not buy entry into heaven. Besides, each sin called for a sacrifice (I believe the exact protocol is either outlined in Deuteronomy or Judges.. If I were on Jeopardy I'd go with Deuteronomy), and it's easy to firgure out that there simply aren't enough pure specimen's for all of mankind's sin.

Hence the reason why God sent His Son, Jesus, to be the lamb of sacrifice for all of mankind. His sacrifice on the cross, sinless and holy, was for the remission of all sins. He BECAME sin-- according to Christian doctrine-- and was raised again sinless and incorruptable.

As WE will be, either raised in the First Ressurrection after the 70th Week has passed, or before the beginning of the 70th week when we are caught up in the Rapture. (We being believers.)

Without the resurrection.. WE have no model. Baptism-- being buried with Christ and being resurrected sinless with him-- would have no meaning. Communion would be an idle snack in the middle of a meaningless service.. And the keys to hell and death would still be in Satan's hands.

You're right, Dixon. A resurrectionless Christianity is not Christianity. A lot of things in the Bible are figurative.. But the resurrection of Jesus cannot be in order to keep the meaning straight. I had this conversation with a 'christian' friend of mine who didn't believe the resurrection, and eventually convinced him of my position. Christ couldn't have been the Savior if He didn't save us. You know what I mean?

Shy, I'll be MORE than happy to answer as best I can about blasphemy of the holy spirit.. but it's a difficult subject to tackle. I'll post on it after I do a little prayer for illumination and dive into scripture.. I promise.

Deborah girl, you kick ass as usual. You going to the wedding? Wanna be my roomie?

__________________
God isn't too big (or too small) for ANYthing.

[Edited by Endlessly on 07-16-2000 at 06:07 PM]

 

[Never]

I suppose, as an agnostic I should spend a bit more time debating theological issues and pondering life's greater mysteries. However, whether through youth, an inability to concentrate, or an excessively boring nature I would rather debate X-Men vs. JLA. I know; years of television watching have rotted my brain.
Not that I'm not enjoying the thread. (Will never understand why people dislike double negatives) I've read with interest for some time now and since I haven't formed an opinion yet, and I doubt I ever will, I'll just add a sprinkle in a bit of commentary.

"I believe that all the situations mentioned as well as Deborah's (I think it was Deborah) question about little children too young to understand faith are both covered by a special grace that God has. IMO, I believe that they are all in a special place."

It was just because of this question that Catholics invented Purgatory. Still births and the like were common back then and no one liked the idea of their infant roasting in hell like a pig on a spit. The Church found giving pardons, and selling candles such lucrative business they expanded and started sending criminals, vagrants, the infirm, housewives, public enemies and the like there. (This happened at the Council of Trent) Hmm, and I believe Moses, Noah, Elijah, Enoch, the beggar Lazarus, Pluto and other 'great' pagans and Jews who never had a chance to convert went to the bosom of Abraham. The rest were winked off to Limbo.
When Purgatory became official because of a papal letter in 1253, none of the Church fathers quite understood the prominent roll the Virgin Mary would play is damning or releasing souls. A story from 1070 comes to mind; about a young woman who went to Hell for a youthful act of lesbianism until the Mother of God intervenes of her behalf and restores her to life. Since Hell is, supposedly, inescapable many scholars take this as an early example of Purgatory.
It was, partly, because of Mary's prominence in the doctrine of Purgatory that early Protestantism rejected that dogma.

Did you know that the British coronation oath once contained the words, "I do solemnly and sincerely, in the presence of God, profess, testify and declare that I do believe that in … as they are now used in the Church of Rome, are superstitious and idolatrous."
That is because King Henry the Eighth created the Church of England so he could shirk the Catholic rule about going to hell if you divorced your wife. He murdered two and divorced three if I'm correct. He didn't like the idea that someone should tell him what to do (he was the king after all) so he just decided Rome was wrong and that no British Royalty should bow before the Pope.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*You'll note. It's somewhat informative but still quite meaningless.*

 

[Deborah]

Thump, thump!

But Endlessly, if we were roomies, what would we do all night? Discuss the bible?

OK Thumper, even though it appears you ran off because you can't defend your statements about the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc., I been thumping the bible just like you suggested.

Now, it appears to me that the people who have posted on this thread are either ...

1. Atheists who believe you die and that's the end of the story.

2. People like Thumper whose concept of God and hell is whatever they want it to be. They have their own personal concept which exists solely in their own mind. That's not necessarily a criticism, it just means there is no way to verify what they are saying. Reminds me of Neale Donald Walsch and his best-selling book "Conversations with God." In it Walsch relates what God told him what hell is. Sorry, that doesn't work for me.

3. People who are looking for an explanation from "the bible" or from some religion.

Of course we have others, none who posted to this thread, who don't really give a shit and never think about it, and others who are incapable, due to age, infirmities, etc., of thinking about it.

I don't do religion but I'll buy the explanation in "the bible" until somebody gives me a better one. The explanation in "the bible" is rather clear. Hell is not so bad, YET. Nobody is burning in hell, YET.

Like I said before, the word "hell" appears over 50 times in the King James. The word "hell" appears 31 times in the Old Testament. It is always translated from the Hebrew word "sheol" which means the world of the dead. The word "sheol" is derived from the Hebrew primary root word "shaal" which has connotations of a place where some activity is taking place, such as praying, begging, and/or inquiring. Get it yet? The dead in this "hell" have spiritual consciousness. They can think. They can talk.

Now, the matter of "hell" becomes somewhat more complex in the New Testament, since three different Greek words are translated to "hell" in the King James. The word "hell" appears 23 times in the New Testament. 10 times the word "hell" is translated from the Greek word "hades" which is essentially equivalent to the Hebrew word "sheol" in the Old Testament. 12 times in the New Testament the word "hell" is translated from the Greek word "geenna" which means the place or state of eternal punishment. Only once in the NT is "hell" translated from the Greek word "tartaroo" which means the means the deepest abyss of hades.

If you review these fifty-something verses where the word "hell" is used, it is quite clear that no one has yet burned in hell. That is yet to come. So what are all these "people" doing in this "hell" I wonder?

Is there any evidence in "the bible" that Jesus has talked to "people" in "hell" I wonder?

Is there any evidence in "the bible" that many of those who have died are "waiting around" for some reason for something to happen? Read the last half of Luke 13 and tell me what's up with that.

So ShynCarolina, who started this thread, my answer to your most recent post and reference to "a special place" I would say yes, apparently so. And with respect to asking if any who are dead, particularly healthy people who commit suicide are "damned for their actions???", I would say not necessarily so. Again, if these people who have died supposedly in a state of sin have not burned in hell, just what the "hell" are they doing there?

 

[Gaucho]

Incidentally, Thumper, the word "hell" appears over 50 times in King James and there are many other words which symbolize hell.

I personally believe that "the bible" was divinely inspired. In my opinion there is no way in Hades that forty plus guys were smart enough to make up all this stuff and get away with it. Had it been a few smart ass chicks I might buy that it's all a fraud.

BTW, I'm not trying to "convert" anybody to anything. I don't really care what you believe. Not my problem. But some people here are looking for possible answers. I have one that makes sense to me. Until someone has a better explanation, this is my story and I'm sticking to it.

Deborah - Wow. You don't mean that you actually counted them personally, did you? You go, girl. But all of this is getting pretty far afield of the discussion about suicide, wouldn't you say? The truth is, there isn't a person alive today who can say with any certainty what happens after someone dies, self-inflicted or not. What happened before we were born and and what will happen after we die is a mystery and it's one that, frankly, I don't think we'll ever solve at this level of existence. Everything else is conjecture and speculation. Ultimately, whether you believe in the Bible or the gospel according to Howard Stern comes down to a matter of faith. And while people may come together from time to time to collectively express their faith, to me faith is an individual matter that a person has to work out on his or her own.

As for the Bible being divinely inspired because it was written by men and not women, oh please. Shouldn't that crap have been posted to the "feminist" thread? You know what? There are days when I think the Penthouse Letters are "divinely inspired", too, but that doesn't mean I believe they actually happened.

And I'm glad that you're not trying to convert anyone and that you really don't care what anybody believes. That post contrasts nicely with your other post, where you tell Thumper that you'll tell hiim to go to Hell and describe it for him - right after you come back from church, of course.

Dixon - I'm with you, buddy. Growing up a Catholic in the "old" pre-vatican II church, I liked the dogma, too (btw, if you haven't seen the movie "Dogma", I heartily recommend it. It's hilarious and educational at the same time). I loved the Latin mass and the simple, straightforward approach that the church took: Believe or got to Hell. As a child, I was told point blank that I should feel sorry for any friends I had who weren't Catholic because they were going to Hell and I wasn't. One concept I always loved but never really understood was the idea of "indulgences". I still own a Bible which refers in its introduction to indulgences and how they could help to combat our natural sinfulness. You could gain indulgences in a number of ways: saying prayers, lighting candles, doing charitable acts, even for kissing the Bishop's ring. Given the state of things in the male-dominated Catholic hierarchy, I couldn't help but wonder how many indulgences one would get from sucking the Bishop's cock, but maybe that's better left for another thread.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Shyn, I'm sorry I never answered your question, but I didn't think my answer would be of much comfort to you. I am one of the posting atheists Deb mentioned, and as such I not only don't believe in a Heaven I also don't believe in a Hell, or in any waystation of any kind. I don't feel there is any punishment or reward after death.

Deb, I'm not sure Thumper was making any great point about how many times the word "hell" appears in the Bible, other than pointing out that it doesn't matter how often Hell is mentioned, it's in what context. First of all, you're right in pointing out that Hell is translated differently here and there. To me it doesn't matter how often Hell is in the Bible, what matters is how often "Satan" or the "Devil" is in the Bible, for he is the punisher, the fallen angel -- and the Old Testament doesn't really acknowledge him (not eveninthe Garden of Eden), and when it does it certainly does not characterize him like the New Testament does. In fact, the Devil as we know him today doesn't truly exist in the Bible.

I'm convinced (Druids can you hear me?) that Lucifer as we know him today, with all his personality traits and powers, is a corruption of the popular pagan god Pan, whose wild festivals were in direct competition with the growing Christian movement. We all know how Druid festivals were "Swallowed" by the Christians, so people could no longer celebrate Beltane (is it "Beltane" in December? I forget.) but now must celebrate Christmas (despite the fact that Jesus was probably born in May). The Druid holidays becaem Christian holidays, and the practice of worshipping lower Pagan gods was transformed into the whole idea of creating "Saints" and giving them the holidays previously associated with the pagan gods. Very clever of the early Christian leaders.

The Christian devil was a minor character until the church leaders decided to assign the devil all the properties of Pan, who was too popular to let live. He was given Pan's cloven hooves and love of hedonism and wine. Now, married to the Bible's rle of the Devil as a cast out angel, Pan began to lose favor, cast as he now was as the enemy of God.

And as the Devil became a fabulous tool for conversion he began to grow in stature, to the point where "Hell" became" what it is today, a horrible, festering place of torment ruled over by a cruel ex-angel. The church-approved art of the middle ages clearly shows people suffering in Hell. This was the church's view, and thier invention, and it sure as Hell kept their flocks in line.

So "Hell", as we perceive it today, is very much to my mind, a recently invented human concoction. If that helps you at all Shyn.

And, thanks, Endlessly, your post was endlessly illuminating.

 

[CreamyLady]

DCL, Beltane is in late April or early May. A very fun festival, in my humble opinion. The Winter Solstice or Yule is in December.

There is a fascinating series of books about the history of the Devil from ancient times to modern. It goes into the history of personification of evil, theodicy, and the metamorphosis from Devil to Satan to Lucifer to Mephistopheles.

If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to give you the names of the volumes and the author.

 

[Thumper]

All the monotheistic religions refer to a "place" for the dead. By whatever name. My questions are specific to eternal torment and why that is a direct contradiction to other statements in the bible. Such as God is Pure and Good.How can Pure good create evil? In creating the universe he created evil and "hell". The argument that evil came about with Satan and his minions doesn't wash since the bible claims God is omnipotent and omniscient and being thus he would have known this before he created it.I don't believe it is possible for God to be surprised.

It all boils down to my belief that the bible was written by men and subject to the limitations that entails. And as for "divine" inspiration, how many charlatans (Jim Bakker for one) have said "God spoke to me personally"? Writers can do it too.
In any case I did not "run off" as you say. I see no need to defend my views, religious dogma is a matter of opinion. if it makes you feel good then more power to you. I myself have a lot of questions for God....and for me to rely on you or any other person for the answers...they were wrong about Galileo and at the Inquisition, you could be too. Address my original paradox and I might give a listen. Until then I'll keep searching for my own answers

 

[Deborah]

Hey Groucho, where's Larry, Curly and Moe? No wait, make that Chico, Harpo, Zeppo and Gummo. Of course I have personally counted how many times "hell" appears in "the bible." Isn't that how you find out how many of something there are? Why is "hell" far afield of a discussion of suicide, salvation and damnation, the primary subjects of this thread? Of course there is no one who can say with certainty what happens after we die. If there was, we wouldn't be talking about it, now would we? I wouldn't be caught dead in church. My will and other things I have said make that perfectly clear, despite my apparent contradition (joke). Oh, but I do agree with you, Groucho, about the "Catholic" experience.

Dixon, let me turn the tables on you and other atheists. If we die and then it really is all over, then there is no retribution whatsoever for Hitler offing six million Jews or Dahmer having heart and penis (hey, it was found in his lobster pot) for dinner. That's even more depressing than believing when you die, all you have to look forward to, ultimately, is rotting in the ground and being eaten by worms and maggots. That is sooooo depressing it makes me want to get my gun and blow my brains out. No wait, I'm not dressed for dinner yet.

Incidentally, I wonder whatever happened to the six million Jews Hitler had murdered, spiritually speaking. Not Christians obviously. Hmmmm.

Now Dixon, you raised a legitimate discussion point, in the sense that you have expressed your viewpoint sufficiently enough to be debated. These other two just ramble and babble. I'm talking about Satan. My diatribe on Satan to follow soon. Just as soon as I get in touch with the dude and find out what he's been up to lately. Me thinks, much like as in Luke 22:3, "Then entered Satan into Judas ..." that old devil has his dick up somebody's ass. No wonder Groucho is so grouchy.

Thumper, I'm not clear on what your "original paradox" is, other than yourself. If you would care to express it as ... this verse says this which contradicts this verse which says this ... then I would be most happy to address your issues, or lack thereof. You see no need to defend your views? Who the "hell" are you, God? What is debate all about? If you are going to make outrageous statements and expect no one to challenge them, then I suggest you just call yourself Jesus Fucking Christ.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Dixon, let me turn the tables on you and other atheists. If we die and then it really is all over, then there is no retribution whatsoever for Hitler offing six million Jews or Dahmer having heart and penis (hey, it was found in his lobster pot) for dinner. That's even more depressing than believing when you die, all you have to look forward to, ultimately, is rotting in the ground and being eaten by worms and maggots. That is sooooo depressing it makes me want to get my gun and blow my brains out.

Yes, it is, but just because something SHOULD be doesn't mean it IS, and the fact that life without God or retribution is so hard to take is exactly why belief and faith are so overwhelmingly popular, and persistent, and will survive all scientific proof to the contrary.

But how I view death has nothing to do with ow I view life, which is more precious to me than anything except the lives of my children. As an atheist, (or. more rightly, a humanist) I am perfectly able to supply a sense of spirituality and morality for myself and my kids.

As for Satan I'm looking forward to your diatribe!

 

[Never]

Do I smell something burning?

It seems I've become the Mistress of Endnotes once more. I was often told as a youth about the burning in the 'fire and brimstone' of Hell if I did bad things, such as, looking up porno sites on the web. Now, I have never read the Bible but a few things Deborah said got me thinking (yes, it hurt) about where that concept emerged.

Gehenna, deb called it geenna, means the valley of Hinnom. It was a sort of town dump for the bodies of criminals' and animals' and was kept perpetually burning for sanitary reasons. Later it took on its meaning as a metaphor for an unpleasant place, and it was used as a curse but I never found anything about it being a place of eternal punishment. As I said though, I have never read the Bible.
(Sides note here, a friend of mine once told me Jews sprinkled sulfur and other noxious substances on these dead bodies to keep vermin from eating them. Has anyone heard this before?)

Both the First and Second books of Enoch speak of an underworld. In the Second Enoch is shown the entire earth by Yahweh.

2 Enoch 12
And those two angels led me up the north slope and showed me a terrible place. It had all manners of tortures: cruel darkness, dim gloom. There was no light but that of murky fire. It had a fiery river and the whole place is everywhere fire, everywhere fire and ice, thirst and shivering, where the fetters are cruel, and the angels fearful and merciless, bearing sharp weapons and merciless tortures. I said, "How terrible a place is this."

That hell, supposedly, was populated by any who broke one of the Ten Commandments or the greedy, witches, child abusers or those who lacked charity.

Um. What was my point again? Right, I didn't have any..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Back to Supergirl and Wally worship*

 

[Roland Gilliad]

As an athiest ( for those of you morons it means i dont beleve in god or jesus) i would like to address this issue from my point of view...Ahem..from age 1-10 i was raised a presbitarian..sunday school...Mass , the whole 10 yard...and never in that stint did i really belive that is was all true..then i discovered i had a passion for Science , an if you will, almost natural Knack for the stuff when i discovered you didnt have to belive in god i was overjoyed..gradually i stopped going to church on sundays and such..then just this year i took the final step..i didnt goto church on christmas.....now i know this has nothing to do with your problem but i will awanser that now , as i do not want the fate of your friend or yourself on my shoulders i will say this..Do NOT under any circumstances Kill yourself, you are not only throwing your life away, you are perminently stating to whoever drove you to it that they have won the war, yes from a Religous point of view killing yourself is a sin...but so is being gay, bisexual, different , Semantic , or Stubborn. so consider what else is a sin before you decide for your self if it qualifys as a sin to you

thank you for your time

PS: ahem i had not read the whole thread and would like to make somthing very clear: i do not neccicaraly totaly Demote all possiblitys of a "Higher Power" i instead of beliving it to be a god belive that the missing link is the Key to all of this Moniker the missing link itself..in its non-existance creates what could be the "final Awanser" in my studies i have 2 therum's
1.the missing link will never be found because it dosent exist, reason behind this? ok lets say about 5 million years ago when the man in us was starting to take form, (dont laugh please)somthing, wether it be chemicals,mutations, or even possibly alien's came by and messed up our mix, totaly changing us forever but leaving no evidence what so ever! this would bring about more arguements but it is the most likely of all the therums
2. the missing link never happened...neither did any of the other human classifications..we were put here some how by an unknown force, then in short order (7 days if you belive that stuff) created an entire past for us to belive, right down to the bones themselves.i call this "the matrix" therum because it states that what we see isnt quite the same as what we are getting, in otherwords, god without heaven or hell or birth..although this is a odd therum it has a few useful foundations as well as the "Conspiricy" factor.. i hope you will consider these therums for a while because many years of study went into them thank you again and Good night america!

[Edited by Roland Gilliad on 07-17-2000 at 09:35 PM]

 

[Cheyenne]

Wow

Who would have ever thought someone would be quoting the bible on a porn bb? God works in mysterious ways, doesn't he?

Great discussion, everyone. My simple take on it is that I believe in God. Once I die, I'll either find out I was right (great!) or I won't find out anything, because I'll be just dead and gone. But even then, I'll have won because I'll have been a better person while alive for having tried to live by the 10 commandments. I win in either scenario. But for those of you who don't believe in God, what happens to you after death if you guessed wrong and there really is a God? Why take the chance?

 

[Never]

If I followed that advice I'd simply glance through my religions, find the one with the worst punishment for nonbelievers and convert.
I think fear never leads to faith.
I would hope a person's concept of their place in existence and the order of the universe would hinge on something a bit more substantial than, 'Better cover my bases and believe in this cause there'll be hell to pay if I'm wrong!'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
'Thee and thy son; -and how weak they are, judge
By thy own flesh.


[Edited by Never on 07-17-2000 at 11:13 PM]

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Homo Sapien's evolution as an indigenous terran species is well documented in the fossil record, and there is not need to look for an extra-terrestrial origin. As for the "missing link" there is no one link between modern man and proto-human, and there are enough "links" to show a distinct progression. The "Missing link" is an odd phrase not used (or looked for) by scientists, so not believing in one is of no concern. And calling anyone who does not know the meaning of the word "atheist" a moron and then flip-flopping on your own atheism is oxymoronic to the extreme. Why the uncalled for nastiness when it seems the only one unclear about what an "atheist" is is you?

 

[Never]

I didn't want to bring it up before but that's not even the correct definition of an Atheist. Someone who doesn't believe in 'God or Jesus' is a non-Christian, non-Jew or non-Muslim. An atheist believes in no 'divine force' at all.
Between those two points in the spectrum is the majority of the world's population.

 

[Gaucho]

Hey Groucho, where's Larry, Curly and Moe? No wait, make that Chico, Harpo, Zeppo and Gummo. Of course I have personally counted how many times "hell" appears in "the bible." Isn't that how you find out how many of something there are?

Incidentally, I wonder whatever happened to the six million Jews Hitler had murdered, spiritually speaking. Not Christians obviously. Hmmmm.

I'm talking about Satan. My diatribe on Satan to follow soon. Just as soon as I get in touch with the dude and find out what he's been up to lately. Me thinks, much like as in Luke 22:3, "Then entered Satan into Judas ..." that old devil has his dick up somebody's ass. No wonder Groucho is so grouchy.

Ouch! And here I thought I was just trying to get some things out of that nether region. And speaking of anal, just what kind of person counts the number of times a word is used in any book, let alone the Bible? Frankly, I had to go to my dictionary and look it up and, sure enough, there it was: Under anal it read, see Deborah.

When you started this diatribe, you framed your argument by saying that we should stick to the Bible because most of the posts were from people who seemed to be looking in that direction for help. Okay, fair enough. Let's stick with the Bible. As you are well aware, a great number of the works in the Bible are not original to that book. Large chunks of the book of Genesis and the stories of Job and the great flood (just to name a few) were cribbed from the works of earlier civilizations. Now, if these stories are "divinely inspired", what about the original sources? Was God just warming up? Or was he somehow so disappointed with what those other peoples had done with his message that he said "Okay, fuck you guys. I'm going to give this to someone who knows what to do with it?"

And speaking of that, since the Bible (at least the Old Testament) was written by Jews for Jews, why would you wonder what happened to the victims of the Holocaust? Or is it your contention that a person has to be born again in Christ in order to be saved?

You admit that the Bible is full of "ambiguities and contradictions" but believe that these can be resolved. Resolved how? According to the book of Deborah? Why do people continue to put forth arguments to buttress what are clearly unarguable positions? Does anyone truly believe that there was once a Garden of Eden somewhere on this planet? Or that man, for daring to eat from the Tree of Knowledge in that garden, was banished forever, saddling the rest of us with Original Sin and the necessity of being saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus?

People who read the Bible as a glorified history text deserve the God they get.

 

[Deborah]

Satan, you fucking Devil!

Yep, I found Satan. Right where I thought he'd be. Groucho and Satan, sitting in a tree. In the Garden of Evil.

For Christ's sake, Groucho, do you really think I count the number of times a word is used in "the bible" I wonder? There are resources available that tell you how many times a word is used, and where.

OK, Groucho, here's a few questions for you:

1. You say the OT was written by Jews for Jews. Was Moses a Jew? Were all the other authors of the OT Jews?

2. What earlier civilizations are you talking about where these Genesis stories originally came from? Name them and specifically what "works" you are talking about.

Of course I believe there was a Garden of Evil, 'er I mean Eden, Groucho. That is just what I am about to talk to Dixon about.

Dixon, that was some story you told about Satan. You know what, that sounds just like the kind of story Satan would tell. You horny dudes are quite the fiction writers.

Now Dixon, you conclude with "So 'hell' as we perceive it today, is very much to my mind, a recently invented human concoction." You preface that with a conclusion that this concept developed AFTER Christ, which I assume you mean is in the first few centuries AD. But Dixon, as I already pointed out, "hell" appears in the OT, MANY centuries before Christ. You associate the perception of "hell" with the development of "the Christian devil was a minor character" into then who became the major force of evil who rules hell. But Dixon, Satan goes all the way back to Genesis 3, in my opinion, contrary to your statement. He certainly, in my opinion, is portrayed other than some minor character in Genesis 3 and elsewhere in the OT.

Dixon, you say, "To me it doesn't matter how often Hell is in the Bible, what matters is how often "Satan" or the "Devil" is in the Bible, for he is the punisher, the fallen angel -- and the Old Testament doesn't really acknowledge him (not even in the Garden of Eden), and when it does it certainly does not characterize him like the New Testament does. In fact, the Devil as we know him today doesn't truly exist in the Bible."

But Dixon, that is the only way I know the Devil, what it says about him in "the bible."

Now, here's what I think about that dirty old Devil ...

In Genesis 3, the first appearance of that red horny dude known as Satan, we don't have allegory, myth, fable or legend. We have literal historical facts emphasized by the use of certain figures of speech.

Most of the confusion of thought and conflicting exegesis are the result of taking literally what is expressed by a figure of speech, or from taking figuratively what is literal. A figure of speech is used in "the bible" to call attention to, emphasize and intensify the reality of the literal sense, and the truth of the historical facts so that, while the words employed may not be so strictly true to the letter, they are all the more true to the truth conveyed by them, and to the historical events connected with them. Except for the figurative language of Genesis 3, no one would have thought of associating Satan with a serpent, the serpent of Revelation, as in Revelation 20:2, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan ..." It is quite obvious, to me anyway, that the serpent of Genesis 3:14 and the serpent of Revelation 20:2 are the same supernatural being.

The Hebrew word translated to "serpent" in Genesis 3 is "nachash" which means a shining one, as in a celestial or spirit-being. C'mon now, who really believes we have a talking serpent in Genesis 3? When Satan is spoken of as a serpent in Genesis 3, it is the figure of speech known as a hypocatastasis, or implication; it is no more a serpent than when Dan is called a serpent in Genesis 49:17. Are we to believe Nero is a lion and Herod a fox as they were so called in "the bible" I wonder?

As Paul would put it in 2 Corinthians 11:3, "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." The word "beguiled" is translated from the Greek "expatao" which means "wholly seduced." Now, who could do this but some bright and shining supernatural being? Not some stupid snake I wouldn't imagine.

The first chapter of Job portrays Satan as a fallen angel who comes before God. God asked him what he has been up to. Job 1:7, "And the LORD said unto Satan, 'Whence comest thou?' Then Satan answered the LORD, and said 'From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.'" Of course Satan then goes on to do the job on Job.

Ezekiel, chapter 28, beginning with verse 12, so obviously, at least to me, is describing Satan, also known as the King of Tyrus, that I don't know how anyone can think otherwise. We are talking about someone who, in verse 13, was in the Garden of Eden. We are talking in verse 14 of "the annointed cherub." Now, it sure seems to me this is all about a supernatural being who was in the Garden of Eden. And who might that be?

Dixon, these verses alone substantiante, at least to me, that Satan certainly is acknowledged in the OT and does characterize him much as the NT does. And there's more, much more.