Salvation or Damnation???

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Yes there is, and major kudos to you for actually looking up facts to support your views. Very nice.

But you're looking at the OT through NT eyes. Satan is mentioned, but never in the duality nemesis fashion that the Christians came up with centuries after Jesus dies as a way to put fear into followers. The Devil as God's doppelganger, which is very much the Devil of today, does not exist in the Bible, particularly in the OT and the Torah. The Devil is not described as a serpent. The Devil is not described at all. Neither is God. Neither are Angels. The Jews believed strongly in the danger of idolatry, and created no graven images whatsoever. (Neither did the Christians, for that matter, until the Middle Ages when Mayors and Lords realized they could make tourist money from Pilgrims seeking holy relics, and started hanging crosses and having paintings done of Jesus, etc, as a sort of advertising.) The Jews wold never, never, never have described Lucifer, the fallen angel, the Devil, as any kind of creature whatsoever. The serpent may have been controlled by the Devil, or was an evil creature in itself, but it was not, in actuality, the Devil. No Rabbi would permit such an image to enter the mind of his flock. Even today most Jewish factions have no picture of God, or Satan, or the angels.

My point was not that the Devil didn't appear in the Bible, and have import (he clearly does when Jesus walks into the desert for forty days), but he doesn't become God's near-equal, the major player in the dichotomy between good and evil, the absolute Prince of Darkness, until centuries after Jesus dies, with a re-defined character, physical description, place of import in God's plan, and Biblical re-interpretation (and re-translation) of past transgressions.

If God changes between the OT and the NT (and he does, very much so), Satan changes even more well after Revelation was completed.

Regarding your questions -- I'm confused about your not knowing that Moses was Jewish (eventually), or were you being sarcastic? I couldn't tell. At any rate, yes, all the OT authors were Jewish. But it is very true that much of the OT and the NT stories are un-original, and if you relaly want I suppose I could be as thorough as you and find examples, but they're so numerous, and already so well documented in Joseph Campbell's works that I wouldn't think it neccessary. The stories of the flood, creation, the Exodus, and particularly the virgin birth of a king who will come again are tales older than the OT and are so universal that many feel they are archetypical and come from our collective unconscious (which gives them their veracity -- why do you think the King Arthur stories have stuck around for long?).

So, in the end, I still very much accept the Devil as God's doplleganger and nemesis to be a Medieval creation of Priests that doesn't exist in the Bible, and wasn't much feared before the 12th Century.

This is an interesting discussion, all drawn from the subject of suicide. Exactly the kind of act the Church did not see as good PR, and one of the reasons why the Devil and the punishments of Hell were raised to mythic proportions in sermons. The Devil has done more to keep people in the pews than Jesus.

 

[Jade]

Is Dixon in the religious field as a profession? (just curious, not trying to be a jerk).

 

[Gaucho]

Re: Satan, you fucking Devil!

Yep, I found Satan. Right where I thought he'd be. Groucho and Satan, sitting in a tree. In the Garden of Evil.

In Genesis 3, the first appearance of that red horny dude known as Satan, we don't have allegory, myth, fable or legend. We have literal historical facts emphasized by the use of certain figures of speech.

Genesis 3 as literal, historical facts? Dear God, Deborah, please tell me you're kidding.

Dixon-thanks for answering those questions much quicker and far more eloquently than I could have.

Deborah-you are so intelligent and have clearly invested so much time in thinking about this...I'm very surprised that you hadn't at least heard of the works that Dixon referred to. Is the Bible the only book you read? In between watching Howard Stern, that is?

and btw, you never answered my question. What do you think happened to the victims of the holocaust? Did they make it to heaven?

 

[Endlessly]

Actually, Dixon, I thought Paul had done more to keep people in the pews than Satan. Which is funny, 'cause if you read some of his diatribes (and even Deborah will admit some of them put hers to shame, I bet )-- Well, me personally, I'm sure I get along a lot better with Satan than I would with Paul most of the time.

You did bring up an interesting point, though: the Jews would have no specific picture of Satan. Personally, I wish more Christians were that way.. Though this is a bit polar to your assertion. I'm surprised how many Christians these days see Satan as some guy in red spandex with a pitchfork and horns.. Almost comical, certainly not as threatening as he is (though, according to Christian thought, Satan is only as powerful as you let him be in your life.).

Heck, even Paul warned against that mentality in one of my favorite books, Ephesians. "For we struggle not against flesh, but against principalities.." (I'd quote all of it, but I'm spouting off the top of my head, and there are enough bible scholars on this thread to make me not want to misquote. I'm too lazy to look it up.)

However, this doesn't mean that Satan doesn't have the duality that you mention earlier, doesn't have that evil red spotlight. Paul also says that Satan is like a lion, seeking whom he may devour.

I don't take the Bible literally, except in it's "Don't do this" parts-- and that's only because I never heard a mother say "Tommy! You're grounded for not.." "But you TOLD me not to!" "I WAS BEING FIGURATIVE!"

I mean, if I wanted to be an atheist again, I've already got all the arguments.. And I still have fun asking a Christian who takes the whole bible as literally as the Wall Street Journal what they thought of the fact God created light before He created the stars or the sun. (Figurative reason: That passage was to differentiate this religion from the pagan ones. Had God created the sun and the stars before he created light, poof! We have another solist religion. Light's the perfect metaphor for God, so by doing this THAT way, he not only says that the sun is unimportant compared to Him, but He's one badass mofo to be able to create light without those. Neat huh?)

Anyway, to sum up: Yeah, stuff is figurative. ALOT of stuff is.. I mean.. Why else would Jesus keep saying over and over again, "He who hath ears, let him hear?" He was speaking in parables, for Hissakes..

DOH! Will someone explain about blasphemy of the holy spirit? I've been reading up on that and I still don't feel like I quite have enough of a handle on it to try to tell someone else about it. (THIS is why the 'unforgiveable sin' is argued about so much.)



Oh, and PS: Dixon isn't in the religious field.. Or maybe he is. Depends how seriously you take your comedy.

[Edited by Endlessly on 07-18-2000 at 10:31 AM]

 

[Never]

Another pagan religion?
As far as I know the Greeks differentiated between the Light (Aether), the Sun (Helios), and the Moon (Selene).
If my Greek comology is correct their Light, as a child of Nyx, came before their Sun, who was a child of the Titan Hyperion, as well.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I'm not in the religious field (though I might be interested. What does it pay?). They say that all writers tend to write about one thing. Tennessee Williams always wrote about the clash between man's grace and brutality. Eugene O'Neill always wrote about the fragile/strong bonds of family. Woody Allen always writes about the corruption of the soul and our futile search for redemption in an unheeding universe. I find that all my plays, screenplays, novels, and even my comedy act, were all written around the concept of "truth". Not finding the truth or even (god forbid) telling the truth, but the nature of truth itself, and how we perceive it. So I've always been fascinated with religion, magic, journalism, urban legends and physics -- and any medium that purports to present some version (or perversion, as the case may be) of "Truth".

There's a great issue of US NEWS AND WORLD REPORT out this month about "Mysteries of History" which details dozens of old mysteries and unanswered questions and legendary tales (like the female Pope and the age of the Sphynx and whether or not FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance) and I found it endlessly fascinating because it also details how and why people refuse to give up long held "truths" (like how Davey Crockett was killed while fighting at the Alamo, as opposed to the truth of how he was actually executed days later). I mean, if people aren't going to give up finding Bigfoot they're never going to give up on finding The Garden of Eden.

The human persistence for exotic quest and divine guidance, whether Eldorado or God exists or not, is interesting to me.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Did I hear my name?
I wasn't going to post on this one just lurk in the shadows and watch. Oh well!

I don't know the answer to the suicide question. In looking through the bible I couldn't find the passages that dealt with why it was considered a sin except that it is the taking of a life. In many ways we make our own heaven and hell right here in our own lives. To end one's life no matter how great the pain and suffering can not be considered good if it leaves those we love and care for in pain and anguish. There is often the urge when we are hurting to narrow our vision till we only see things from one viewpoint, our own. We may forget about how our actions affect those that love and care for us.

On the once saved always saved, and people who suddenly find God just before they are to die. There is a huge difference between saying it with your lips and really accepting it with your heart. Does that mean that it can't happen? No, but trying to cover your ass by saying you are something you are not won't help the convicted murderer or the only on Sunday church person. Saved by works, by deeds, by faith, saved by anything that we can offer? No. Saved only because God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Heaven and Hell? Never having been to either one it is hard for me to comment except to say that I believe that they exist in some form or fashion waiting to be filled on judgement day. The idea that hell doesn't exist because God is all loving and forgiveness, where did that come from? Not the old testament. At best it portrays him as a stern father who hands out punishment whenever his people stray from the path he set for them. The new testament where the promise is fulfilled is where the forgiveness and love shine forth from the one who walked the world with us.

It does seem to me that we are forgetting our place in the scheme of things. Our time here is but the twinkling of an eye even in planetary time. Believer or not we are at best germs thriving in the slime of a watery planet of a very minor star on the outer reaches of a large galaxy that is floating in a area of space filled with uncounted other galaxies. Which leads me to the question of God creating the world and humans. I have heard many theories on how all of this started from the scientific world (big bang, space dust, back side of a black hole) but they all end the same way. "Okay, where did the stuff for that come from?" I could postulate and say that God created the material or claim that perhaps he poked a tiny hole and let in some air molecules into the vacuum that we call space those molecules becoming known to us as galaxies. Truthfully I do not know and never expect to find out in this life time.

Evolution is most likely how man was formed. Since I try not to put limits on what God can do the idea that "he" formed man's body from the dust by the process of evolution doesn't seem strange. What does seem odd is that no one is questioning why we are the only creatures to have developed the level of reasoning , curiosity, and society if that big brain was such a factor in the evolutionary selection process. Shouldn't there be at least one or two other species that would have followed the same path if it was a big factor in the selection of best fit to survive? Okay the fish, the fowl, and the reptiles maybe branched in the wrong direction although intelligence should improve survival chances even for them. But why isn't there at least one other mammal that developed reasoning abilities like us if it was so good? Yeap I think something other than accidental mutation and natural selection was at work. That when man with his freedom to choose came to understand the difference between right and wrong that he started the long slow process of reaching out to know God and become like him. It is sad that he is doomed to fail in this body, with its clay feet which bind him to this world.

Gaucho " Large chunks of the book of Genesis and the stories of Job and the great flood (just to name a few) were cribbed from the works of earlier civilizations."
Would you mind enlightening this poor farm boy on which works from what civilizations you are referring to. Please if possible give earliest known dates of such works not just mentions in a later work.

Does anyone truly believe that there was once a Garden of Eden somewhere on this planet? Or that man, for daring to eat from the Tree of Knowledge in that garden, was banished forever, saddling the rest of us with Original Sin and the necessity of being saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus?
Me although the version in my head may not play the same as the one you imagine in yours.

Okay as long as we are there if you combine Christian, Moslem, and Jewish faiths together you have the largest segment of the population agreeing on one God and one main book The Old Testament. With Dixon asserting that the stories are so old as to be ingrained in our collective unconscious. Sounds good to me. I will have to look up Mr Campbell's works and see which civilizations also had the same creation story. I don't think it was Chinese and most of the American natives had their own creation story.

Ah well I have talked enough for now.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

What does a shark need with reason? Why would a whale need to be more intelligent than it is? High intelligence doesn't mean superior evolution. Ants are dumb but they're a lot more likely to survive than we are. And apes are a much older specicies than homo sapiens, and are perfectly successfull with their limited intelligence (which isn't exactly void of reason).

Birds fly because they have to, and humans are smart because we needed to be, frail creatures that we are; we had to leanr to use tools to live. Tool use made us smarter. As humans got smarter, their brains got bigger, and children needed to be be born sooner because of the size of their heads. Because kids were born sooner they were less developed, and required constant attention from the parents and others to survive. Because parents were busy keeping the kids from being eaten by saber-tooth tigers they needed help hunting and gathering, so humans formed collective tribes(it takes a village and all that) so everyone could eat. Because of the ice ages it became neccessary to trust other tribes for info about hunting and trade, so societies were created. And then came television and it all went to hell.

Which brings us back to our topic.



[Edited by Dixon Carter Lee on 07-18-2000 at 12:38 PM]

 

[Skitten]

Yes I believe in GOD life wouldn't be what it is if GOD diddn't exsist I believe that everyone has a right to believe what they want. I was brought up Roman Catholic and a lot has changed over the years and the belief system is still in my brain. I Believe in all that I was taught to a point, but I also think that there should be some changes made in the Catholic religion. They say that it is a sin if you commit suicide but I believe that we have a forgiving GOD and he knows that you are hurting and wouldn't want anyone who is hurting that much to suffer by making him spend eternity in HELL just because he made a mistake. The persom that commits suicide is human and GOD knows that we aren't perfect and I believe that he forgives us for our mistakes as well even if we don't know how to ask to be forgiven after all that is what he is trying to teach us to be better people I don't think that he sould make anyone suffer unberable. I also believe that he is a loving GOD he is one you can turn to no matter how bad it gets and no matter how long its been he is our father and would always be there for us no matter what.

I believe that GOD has a plan for each and everyone of us we may not know what that is but he does and when it is our time to know he shows us how to achieve that plan, that is why we all have special talents or gifts he gave them to us to be able to cope with this world so we can spend eternity with him in his world and not have to worry about anything then he is a loving father and the pain that we have to endure is his way of teaching each and everyone of us the lessons that we must learn to be able to be strong on earth.
And to reach the goals of spending eternity with him.

 

[Thumper]

Deborah....what Dixon said! And take some Midol or something.

Read my first post. I delineated the paradox rather well I believe..that is if you can understand the concept.

...and yes I am God. So I need not defend my views to you.

 

[Cheyenne]

???

Never: I never said I believed in God out of fear. I believe because I have faith. I don't fear God, I love him. And I believe I win in the end either way, whether God exists or not. I was just pointing out that those were pretty good odds for people who might question the benefits of believing.
Where in my post did you see anything about believing in a certain religion, to pick the one with the worst punishment for not believing and join it? I don't believe you need to pick any religion at all. Just believing in God is enough. Guess that's my own personal religion.

"Choose you this day whom ye shall serve; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15

 

[Deborah]

God dagnabbit!

Thumper, of course you are God. As Lasher, the ultimate Guru, has proven with a preponderance of the evidence, God is a woman. I heard a rumor that you look even better than slut_boy in panties.

Hey Groucho and Dixon, where's your bud Roland? Now him, he can express where you guys are coming from. You two just confuse.

Groucho, I think I recognize you. Are you Hank the drunk dwarf on the Howard Stern show? BTW, my name does mean anal, and to find out exactly how I like it, read my story "Assignation" and bend over.

Groucho, I believe that the only "works" Dixon referred to were those of Joseph Campbell. Now Groucho, you say "I'm very surprised that you hadn't at least heard of the works Dixon referred to. Is the Bible the only book you read? In between watching Howard Stern, that is?" Groucho, what could possibly make you believe I have not read "The Power of Myth" and the four volumes of "Masks of God" and "Transformations of Myth through Time" and "The Mythic Image" and "The Portable Carl Jung" 'eh dude? I have mentioned before several times I have read "Das Kapital" and "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch and the "Left Behind" series (fiction but based on an allegedly true premise called "the rapture"). Just because I read all this shit doesn't mean I believe it. Campbell just has his story a little mixed up, interesting stuff though. Now, "the bible" is an entirely different matter. I mean, God actually wrote it, sort of.

Groucho, you ask a lot of questions but you never answer any. Where's your answer to my question about civilization and the "works" you are talking about, 'eh? Fallen Angel asked it again. You even let Dixon answer your question about Jews for you, which he got wrong, BTW. Moses was NEVER a Jew. There is no way possible you can make him out to be a Jew. Well, not one I can think of, but I suppose you guys will come up with some nonsense.

Dixon, I simply can not agree when you can say "The Devil is not described as a serpent" or there no is duality. It is all there, right in Genesis 3. In Genesis 3:14, "And the LORD God said unto the serpent ..." (verse 15) "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel."

Now I know Dixon and Groucho don't really give a shit what these verses mean, but somebody else might. Again, we have figures of speech being employed to emphasize the truth and reality of what is being said. In verse 15, when it says "thou shalt bruise His (Christ's) heel, it cannot mean His literal heel of flesh and blood, but suffering, more temporary in character. When it is said "He (Christ) shall crush thy (Satan's) head" it means something more than a skull of bone and brain, and hair. It means that all Satan's plans and plots, policy and purposes, will one day be finally crushed and ended, never more to mar or to hinder the purposes of God. This will be effected when Satan shall be bruised under our feet (Romans 16:20). This, again, will not be our literal feet, but something much more real. The bruising of Christ's heel is a most eloquent and impressive way of foretelling the most solemn events and to point out that the effort made by Satan to evade his doom would become the very means of insuring its accomplishment. It is through the death of Christ that the power of spiritual death, Satan, will utimately be destroyed.

There's your duality, Dixon, not that I expect you to pay any attention to it.

Now, Groucho, I will answer your question (and Shyn Carolina's, who started this thread), despite the fact that you ignore mine. Yes, I think the victims of the holocaust made it to heaven. As did those who have committed suicide. As did those who died too young or mentally incapable of making any sort of decision about God. As did murderers and rapists. Heaven is where God is. Some are with God, some are merely in the sight of God, waiting to be judged. Some have achieved salvation, some have not. NO ONE has yet burned in hell. Those who have committed suicide but have not yet repented, for obvious reasons (they are fucking dead), do have a chance to do so. Of course, I can prove all this, via "the bible" which some of you hold in the same reverence as the weather report.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Deb, phrases like "not that I expect you to pay attention to it" and others that imply I'm somehow not sitting up straight in class or mentally deficient are uneccessary, unfair, and uncalled for. I've posted well, and clearly, in a friendly, respectful fashion, and I'm more than a little intelligent. There's no need to berate me for debating (well). My not believing God isn't an attack on you.

As for the issue we all seem to be stuck on this: Some people think the Bible was written by God and can be accurately interpreted 4000 years later. Some people think the Bible was written by men and has has been revised and had its meanings re-interpeted, spindled and mutilated so many times that it is wide open to a variety of "meaning". As I've said before, there is no way to reconcile this point with reason or quotes from books, because it all comes down to a question of faith. There's no way to prove God did or didn't do anything, so asking for proof and to answer demanded questions are moot requests. Faith does not need to be proved to the faithful.

But, quoting from the Bible to prove the Bible's veracity is problematic. It's like quoting from Mother Goose to prove that cows really do jump over the moon. (In other words, if you're discussing whether the Bible's been badly translated and interpreted you can't then use a quote from the Bible to prove to those who doubt its clarity how clear it is.)

As for Moses not being a Jew --- !

 

[Deborah]

Dixon, I agree with two of the four sentences in your paragraph one. I'm not berating you. I have an immense amount of respect for you, believe it or not. We just happen to disagree. Hey, you fight fair and quite eloquently and in a most entertaining manner. Some people may agree with you, some may agree with me, some may just go "Doh!". Oh well!

Incidentally, I was just at lunch and watching Leonard Nimoy on the History Channel talking about the Dead Sea Scrolls. He, at least, agrees with me (the Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the OT) and love those ears.

Moses was a Levite. May not matter to you but it does to me. The proper definition of a Jew I believe to be either a descendent of Judah, the patriarch of one of the 12 tribes of Israel, or a resident of Judea, after the exile.

Hey Dixon, you think I'm picking on you, just you wait until you see what I do to Laurel. And I love you two.

 

[Roland Gilliad]

my take on the bible: one word. FAKE! i mean it is totally possible that 40 some odd scholars got to-gether to form the greatest scheme of our day. they thought like fantasy writers . they came up with a main charicter (god)and evil villan (satan) and side chars to make it intresting (jesus,moses,luther)and the what-not.then when they were all through. they decided to pull the biggest practical joke of all time, and in the process make themselves famous for all eternaty. they made it sound less...nice and more serious. then they said all the stuff about them seeing god or such. thats totaly bogus (remember the salem witch trials?) they were in a position of power. they were holding all the cards and calling the shots of a new religon.they made their beliefs into this new religon. they called it chirstianity. and made all of a manner of storys that had no phsyical bering in the real world, they almost helped people want to become more advanced. (altough i wouldnt mind the pagans still being in religous power they know how to have fun!)thats more or less the story. obviously some great rulers like Cesar, Alexander, king george the 5th, all made editations to the bible. so dont think its real, its just the collective genuis of 40 some scholars who wanted to be eteranally famous

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

That has to be the goddamn stupidest thing I've ever read and there's no way I could possibly ridicule you more than you've already done all by yourself.

Deb -- Love you too, sweetie. Be nice to poor Laurel! LOL.

 

[Gaucho]

The Thing of It Is...

Ohhhhhhhh.....so Moses was a Levite? As opposed to being an Amorite or a Hittite or one of the other "lost" tribes of Northern Ireland - excuse me, Israel. Of course, how stupid of me. That explains everything.

As far as any modern reader of the Bible is concerned, Moses was a Jew, Hebrew, or Israelite, take your pick. And since there is no factual evidence outside the Bible or the Koran that Moses ever existed, why in the fuck should I care what he was? Hell, Freud suggested that Moses was an Egyptian. The name itself is Egyptian, isn't it? How about them apples? And speaking of Egypt, doesn't it strike you as strange that the Bible never mentions the pyramids?

As for the cribbed part of the books (Genesis, Noah, and Job) that I mentioned, the creation myths as set down in Genesis (and yes, there is more than one) are so commonplace in primitive planting cultures that I almost don't know where to begin. Suffice it to say that the creation myths from Africa, Southeast Asia, the Pacific rim Islands, Mexico and South America bear a striking resemblance to Genesis, including the presence of the serpent, the woman, the coming into existence of death and procreation, a murder, and the ending of a mythological age. Granted, they were turned on their heads a bit by the male authors of the Bible - I mean, they were usually written in homage a female God (or Gods) and that didn't quite work in a patriarchal society.

What these earlier creation myths do not contain, as Joseph Campbell points out, is the Fall, or sense of sin and exile. These myths are affirmative, not critical of life. But without the Fall, there can be no redemption, and then we'd all really go to Hell, wouldn't we?

As for Noah, virtually every ancient culture has some sort of flood or deluge myth. One example is a Sumerian myth that tells of a flood in which the gods curb overpopulation. One king manages to survive the flood and offers a sacrifice to the gods, thus repopulating the world and gaining immortality, to boot. The Greeks tell of when Zeus, capricious as always, floods the earth. Deucalion (son of Prometheus - you know, the guy that brought us fire) and his wife take refuge in an ark that lands on top of Mt. Olympus. He repopulates the world with stones that represent the "bones" of "Mother Earth". And then there is the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh. The hero of that myth also survives by building a boat which comes to rest on a mountain very near where Noah's ark supposedly ended up.

As for Job, one of the best and most though-provoking tales in the Bible, no one knows precisely when it was composed, but it is based on an ancient folktale set in the land of Uz and was influenced strongly by a Babylonian poem called "A Dialogue About Human Misery".

Again, these are just a few examples of what I meant. I don't expect this to change your mind, of course. Anyone wishing to know more would do well to start with any of the works of Joseph Campbell or, just for fun, you might consult a more recent book entitled "Don't Know Much About the Bible" by Kenneth C. Davis. While it shouldn't replace a reading of the Good Book (on this I have to agree with you, Deb. Everyone should read the damn thing before talking about it) it will serve as a very readable and historical reference to help put the time and place in which the Bible was written into perspective.

Finally, since you are obviously clinging to this book like a drowning man hugging a life raft, I'm not going to stick any more pins in it. But Dixon is exactly right when he says that quoting from the Bible to prove the veracity of the Bible is problematic, at best. And the True Believers shouldn't require proof, anyway, should they? What I guess I don't understand is why any modern woman would believe in a patriarchal book that reduces women to the level of property; to be bought and sold, raped, used and left aside when their masters felt like it. Like yourself, the Deborah in the Bible was a kick-ass, take no prisoners kind of babe. She wouldn't have had any use for that book. Neither should you.

Maybe you should start your own religion. A religion of the Goddess Deborah. Now, that I could believe in and who knows, I might even become your first acolyte. And you're right, Heaven is where God is. But it's not "out there" and it's certainly not in the Bible. It's right here and right now, if you only know where to look. BTW-The sin against the Holy Ghost is the sin of despair. People who commit suicide are in so much physical or emotional pain that they fall victim to it and lose hope. But there is no everlasting punishment for that sin. Only sorrow in the lives of those they leave behind.

Hear endeth the lesson.

Okay, Deb. I'm bending over now.

 

[Laurel]

Wait till he sees what you do to me? Wow! Are you going to videotape it? Sounds nasty...and fun...

Dixon, let me turn the tables on you and other atheists. If we die and then it really is all over, then there is no retribution whatsoever for Hitler offing six million Jews or Dahmer having heart and penis (hey, it was found in his lobster pot) for dinner.

I'm a firm believer in a value-neutral universe. There is no good and no evil in the long run - these are terms applied by human beings, and are highly subjective. To many, I'm an evil, evil person because I run a porn site. If you watch Animal Planet, you'll see "innocent" beings ripped apart and consumed, or just ripped apart in vengeance or in territorial struggles. Is a cougar who kills an ape a murderer? Is a mom cat who leaves her kittens to die guilty of infanticide? Or all male cats rapists?

I like the ant analogy that DCL brought up. It illustrates what I believe to be the primary attraction of religion. Some might say that belief in an afterlife is what compells people to believe - I disagree. I think what draws us to religion is the part about Man being created IN GOD'S IMAGE. We're the center of the show - all the little crawly things, furry or scaly, are bit players. It's our hopes and dreams, our destiny, that matters.

So we decide that creatures like ants are an inferior species, ignoring the fact that they have a highly complex society that is far superior to human society in terms of efficiency and organization. They pre-existed us, and they'll be here long after we're gone. By weight, insects outnumber us thousands of times. Despite insecticides, habitat destruction, and interbreeding, they still prevail, adapting to their new environments, thriving in our basements, our kitchens, our backyards.

Inferior? By whose standards?

By the major religion's standards. According to Christianity, animals do not have souls. They are substandard, put here for us to shepherd and treat as we see fit. In days long past - pre-insecticides, pre-gunpowder - when the world was a scarier place and our part in it was much smaller, it must have been immensely comforting to know that we will go to Heaven, while the wolves and bears and creepy-crawlies that threatened us would not.

We forget that simply because we assume killing is wrong does not mean that the rest of the planet - nay, the universe - feels the same way. Why do innocent people die, and those we feel are guilty get off scot-free? Because, as bumper-sticker logic dictates, Shit Happens. When a cheetah jumps from the bush and carries off a baby antelope, you don't see the mother wailing "Why, God, Why?" and cursing the cheetah. The mother moves on to safer territory, and breeds again.

While the need for revenge is not a uniquely human trait (baboons also kill for revenge and for pleasure, and I saw a special once on which a herd of buffalo invaded a tiger camp with the express intention of stomping to death tiger cubs, after the tigers killed had killed one of their young), I think we're the only species (again, having never been another animal, I could be wrong) that expects some cosmic retribution for acts we think are wrong.

So that's a long answer to your short question, Deborah. The Reader's Digest version: in the big picture, Hitler and his victims are a blip on the screen. Terms like "good" and "evil" are human creations, they are not universal absolutes. And while I do believe that Hitler was a twisted fuck deserving of eternal torture, I also understand that my wishes are just that - my wishes... and though I would like to think he's suffering the fires of hell as I type this, the truth is that his body's rotting somewhere - as is Mother Theresa's, as is Jeffrey Daumer's, and the part you call a "soul" is simply the byproduct of the interaction of neurons which were some maggot's meal long ago.

 

[Endlessly]

*applause*

Goucho, I don't agree with you. I don't believe you, and I'll probably end up clinging to that woman-repressing, fictional, cribbed book of myths until the day I die..

But I have to say, yours was one of the most eloquent, pragmatic, and respectful posts I've read in a long time.

Kudos.

 

[Gaucho]

Re: *applause*

Goucho, I don't agree with you. I don't believe you, and I'll probably end up clinging to that woman-repressing, fictional, cribbed book of myths until the day I die..

But I have to say, yours was one of the most eloquent, pragmatic, and respectful posts I've read in a long time.

Kudos.

Aw, shucks. (blushes) Thanks, Endlessly.

The point of my somewhat long-winded response to Deborah's questions was not to try and change her (or anyone else's, for that matter) mind about what she believes. If the Bible floats your boat, then so be it. The problem I have with Christianity (and most other religions, to be honest about it) is that it ends up being used as a litmus test to separate the true believers from the outcasts; the in-group from the out, and yes, the saved from the damned. If you decide to join the group, there are promises of rewards and privileges in this life or the next, and there have been centuries when this life was such a difficult experience that the thought of no afterlife was just too terrible to deal with.

And if you don't want to join the group....well, God help you. But of course he won't, will he? You're not on His team.

When any group or individual thinks that they've found THE ANSWER, they can't just keep it to themselves. They have to tell everybody they can about it. And if, for whatever reason, you happen not to agree with THE ANSWER, these groups get pissed off. While there is much good to be found in the Bible, it has also been used to justify more pain and bloodshed than any other tome in history. And you know what? That's probably not going to change as long as humanity exists.

Today, the middle east remains a source of tension and strife, with each side claiming "divine right" to the Holy Land as set down in their "good book". As long as we believe that the Holy Land is a physical place on a finite planet with an ever-growing population, there will always be several groups that claim divine right to it. Until we realize that Holiness is a state of mind and that literally any land can be the Holy Land, I don't think any of us will find the state of grace that we desperately long for.

Well, I think I've shot my bolt on this one. However, in closing let me pass along a little story that I heard recently that may clear up some things.

A new Monk arrives at the monastery and is assigned to help the other monks in copying the old texts by hand. He notices, however, that they are copying from copies, not from the original books. So he goes to the head monk and asks him about this, pointing out that if there were an error in the first copy then that error would be continued in all the other copies. The head monk insists that they have been doing it that way for centuries, but grudgingly admits that the new monk might have a point. So he goes down into the cellar with one of the copies to check it against the original.

Hours pass and when he doesn't return, the new monk goes in search of him. He hears sobbing coming from a corner of the cellar and finds the head monk leaning over one of the original books crying. He asks him what is wrong.

The head monk lifts his head and says between sobs,

"The word is CELEBRATE!"

Pax

 

[Deborah]

Yes indeed, Endlessly, that was some post by ... it's not "Goucho" BTW ... it's Groucho. OK, Gaucho, you are being a little nicer to me, so I'll be a little nicer to you. I'll use lube.. Endlessly, what was that stuff you used? Strawberry or cherry something or other? Or was that the Kool-Aid?

Now Gaucho, I understand exactly where Dixon and Laurel and Endlessly are coming from, because they state their position quite clearly. You have me a little confused. I think I got your "philosophy" figured out but you better tell me in your own words, just in case I'm being blonde.

Now Endlessly and I get at least some of our philosophy from the Bible. You Gaucho, I think get yours from the movies. Yes indeed, Gaucho, I have seen the movie "The Gaucho" and you can't fool me. Hey, I got a big dish and I get TMC, I think that must be where I saw it. Endlessly, really, you have to check this movie out. Very spiritual. Gaucho utlimately convinces the town to listen to the priest and follow the 10 Commandments. Oh yeah, and Gaucho fools around with some mountain girl, so sex must be OK, even though the Virgin Mary is in the flick, played by Mary Picford, I think. The movie is really old but not as old as the movie Roland gets his philosophy from, "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea." That was on the other day, the 1916 version. What Roland apparently does not comprehend is that it is a silent movie.

Gaucho, first of all I think you have Moses confused with Sammy Davis Jr. Now Sammy was a Jew.

Of course the Bible mentions the pyramids. What do you think Isaiah 19:19, "In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD" and verse 20, "And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt ..." is all about, 'eh dude?

Now I ask you, Gaucho, what ELSE could that possibly be about? Right, the only one of the seven wonders of the ancient world that still exists. What does this have to do with the subject of this thread, "salvation and damnation" one might ask. Some say the Great Pyramid at Giza contains a divine message regarding those very subjects.

Gaucho, you got your opinion on the composition of the book of Job, I got mine. My theory is Moses wrote the book of Job, and personally knew Job, whom I believe was the son of Issachar.

What you said about the Epic of Gilgamesh I am going to twist around on you. The Flood of the Bible, which I do not personally believe was global, supposedly occurred somewhere around 400 years BEFORE the Epic of Gilgamesh was recorded on 12 tablets of cuneiform. I say the Flood prompted the Babylonians to weave a twisted tale of God's story, just to confuse people like you. You know, babel. I mean, the story of Lilith in the Epic of Gilgamesh certainly is not accurate.

Of course I don't agree with you, Gaucho, about the unforgivable sin. Was that in the movie "The Gaucho" I wonder? I don't remember that part. How about explaining why you said what you said, then I'll tell you what I think the "unforgivable sin" really is.

 

[Roland Gilliad]

::claps cheers and hands laural a pulitizer prize::

 

[Deborah]

Yes indeed, Roland, that was some post and she definitely deserves the PP. But spell her name correctly on it, will ya? It's LAUREL. I know, I know, you are from Cleveland.

 

[Endlessly]

The difference with Christianity:

Gaucho, you're right in a lot of your assumptions about organized religions, and I'll admit-- I think religion, in its usual forms today, is utterly useless and unappealing, and it SURE ain't a substitute for a personal relationship with God.

(Side note, bible study yesterday was open topic, bring your own questions.. BOY did I have Pastor running thanks to this thread! )

As far as the litmus test goes, there is one thing that HAS to be kept in mind when dealing with Christianity in comparison to other world religions, and this may not seem like much, but in reality it means all the world. (This is a broad assertation, but one I've carefully researched and feel comfortable making.)

Christianity-- pure Christianity, we're not talking cults or denominations or Catholicism, we're talking plain ol' "Instructions from the Bible" Christianity here--

Is the only religion in the world where its believers do not have do do works of one kind or another to be saved. Technically, all a guy's gotta do is confess with his mouth the lord Jesus, and believe in his heart that God raised him from the dead, and thou shalt be saved. No "If you don't follow the laws you'll go to hell." No "You can achieve Nirvana by this path of meditation." It's not about what you do.. It's about what He already did.

Which is why Christians who walk around like they saved themselves piss me off.. they were 'saved' by grace, not by their own bumbling and fleshly hands, and if they understood that, they wouldn't feel holier-than-thou and separate themselves because of their beliefs.

Hey, but that's just what I think.

Woooooeeeeeee, Deborah, didn't they make a movie about you too.. The Big Chill? It's getting cold in here..

 

[Flagg]

If I was forced for whatever reason to adhere to a particular religious belief system, I think I would probably choose Hinduism. From what I know about it, it sounds like the most tolerant and open minded religion.

"Ekam Sataha Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti" or "The truth is One, but different Sages call it by Different Names"

This sentiment is infinitely more acceptable to me than the first commandment.

But I guess that's just me.

[Edited by Flagg on 07-20-2000 at 09:23 AM]