Scoring system rant

[Comshaw]

My worth:

The only friction it creates for me is the vulnerability to one-bombers and low numbers of votes dragging down my confidence. If not for that, I’d appreciate it.

If Hs were permanent and easier to earn… if wishes were horses… if fanfics were real…

Perhaps you need to step back and take a long hard, unbiased look at why those 1 bombs and low numbers are coming in.

Is it because you have a herd of trolls following you and doing it? Normally trolls don't follow around an author just because. One or two might, but they wouldn't make that much impact on a story score. As a rule an author has to do something, say something, poke the bear so to speak, to get enough trolls pissed enough to drag a score down by a point or two.

It also could be the category you post them in. There are those areas (see Loving Wives) which are chock full of trolls and they delight in engaging in their sport of mean-spirited voting and comments. And a swarm of those ugly bastards can do a lot of harm to a score.

Is it because the majority of readers don't find your stories entertaining? Keep in mind it doesn't really matter how we as authors, or other authors, view our works. When we throw them out onto the site and allow the readers the latitude to rate them, they are the ones who get to say what is good and what is not. (I will be addressing the quality vrs popularity of stories later).

Lots and lots and lots of things to consider to discover the reason for low scores. The first two of those things above are external and may be out of a person's control. The last requires some truthful self-examination and introspection. I can say from experience it's a damned difficult and painful thing to step back and take a truthful look at what we want to believe, to question ourselves and when we find ourselves wanting to admit it and try to do something about it. I can also state categorically that it is well worth the pain and effort.

As far as an "excellent" story vrs a "popular" one, who gets to declare something as "excellent"? What criteria is applied? I would argue that even if a story is full of errors and looks as if it was typed with one hand while the other was busy, if it does what it was written to do, titillate as well as entertain the reader, and the reader enjoys it enough to reward the author with a high score, isn't that the essence of the meaning of "excellent"?

The difference is illustrated by these two: Ulysses by James Joyce and The Conan the Barbarian tales by Robert E. Howard.

Two ends of the writing spectrum. Both are still with us. Ulysses is being taught in literature classes and Conan is still being read, made into movies and graphic novels. So which one is "excellent" as far as readers go? I would argue that written works are made for no other reason than to be read. And no amount of critical review or snobbery will take the place of a bunch of readers who enjoy the work.

Comshaw

​

 

[AchtungNight]

Thank you for your reply, Comshaw. I am fine with my writing going unscored here. I know people have found it excellent in the past and am confident they will do so in the future. I intend to continue writing as long as I am capable of doing so. I have a story featuring multiple very popular subjects of affection pending in the Lit queue right now. I have ideas for several more. Your support is appreciated.

I personally found Ulysses extremely difficult to understand and boring when I was forced to read it. Nobody else in my class liked it either, including the teacher. He claimed otherwise at first, then admitted he agreed with my critique when I gave it to him.

Conan will always be an entertaining story. James Bond is nothing compared to that guy when it comes to respecting women and kicking ass.

 

[MillieDynamite]

It's Bond, James Bond to you, my dear @AchtungNight! Or rather, Dynamite, Millie Dynamite.

Thank you for your reply, Comshaw. I am fine with my writing going unscored here. I know people have found it excellent in the past and am confident they will do so in the future. I intend to continue writing as long as I am capable of doing so. I have a story featuring multiple very popular subjects of affection pending in the Lit queue right now. I have ideas for several more. Your support is appreciated.

I personally found Ulysses extremely difficult to understand and boring when I was forced to read it. Nobody else in my class liked it either, including the teacher. He claimed otherwise at first, then admitted he agreed with my critique when I gave it to him.

Conan will always be an entertaining story. James Bond is nothing compared to that guy when it comes to respecting women and kicking ass.

 

[Comshaw]

Thank you for your reply, Comshaw. I am fine with my writing going unscored here. I know people have found it excellent in the past and am confident they will do so in the future. I intend to continue writing as long as I am capable of doing so. I have a story featuring multiple very popular subjects of affection pending in the Lit queue right now. I have ideas for several more. Your support is appreciated.

I personally found Ulysses extremely difficult to understand and boring when I was forced to read it. Nobody else in my class liked it either, including the teacher. He claimed otherwise at first, then admitted he agreed with my critique when I gave it to him.

Conan will always be an entertaining story. James Bond is nothing compared to that guy when it comes to respecting women and kicking ass.

Yeah, I had to read Ulysses in high school and I just couldn't make it all the way through it.

But the difference between Ulysses and the Conan stories isn't just about the stories, but the author's styles. Joyce was and has been lauded as a genius author, while Howard was compared to 1800s dime novel, pulp fiction writers. Critics laud Joyce but turn up their noses at Howard's work. And yet Howard's work is still with us, right alongside Joyce's. So which one's work is "excellent"? The genius or the entertainer?

Comshaw

 

[StillStunned]

But the difference between Ulysses and the Conan stories isn't just about the stories, but the author's styles. Joyce was and has been lauded as a genius author, while Howard was compared to 1800s dime novel, pulp fiction writers. Critics laud Joyce but turn up their noses at Howard's work. And yet Howard's work is still with us, right alongside Joyce's. So which one's work is "excellent"? The genius or the entertainer?

I've always loved REH's works (I hate all the Conan pastiches by other authors that I've read - including Robert Jordan). Recently I re-read The Tower of the Elephant. The opening paragraphs are so evocative, I'd have difficulty saying that REH was *not* a genius.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Ulysses, the novel by James Joyce, or the epic poem by Alfred, Lord Tennyson? Or are we talking about the hero of Odysseus?

Yes, I know they are all about the same feller.

 

[AchtungNight]

Ulysses, the novel by James Joyce, or the epic poem by Alfred, Lord Tennyson? Or are we talking about the hero of Odysseus?

Yes, I know they are all about the same feller.

I was talking about the Joyce work. I’m an admirer of the Greek hero, talk about a clever warrior and Loving Husband. I have not read the Tennyson poem.

 

[Comshaw]

I've always loved REH's works (I hate all the Conan pastiches by other authors that I've read - including Robert Jordan). Recently I re-read The Tower of the Elephant. The opening paragraphs are so evocative, I'd have difficulty saying that REH was *not* a genius.

You ain't a gunna' get an argument from me. But then I'm not a critic, just a sausage-fingered hobby writer.

Comshaw

 

[MillieDynamite]

That there was an epic poet called Homer and that he played the primary part in shaping the Iliad and the Odyssey—so much may be said to be probable. If this assumption is accepted, then Homer must assuredly be one of the greatest of the world’s literary artists.

I was talking about the Joyce work. I’m an admirer of the Greek hero, talk about a clever warrior and Loving Husband. I have not read the Tennyson poem.

Excerpt from Ulysses

Come, my friends,
'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down;
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.

 

[AchtungNight]

If the real Achilles was anything like his depiction in a certain Koei game, he wasn’t that great.

 

[MillieDynamite]

According to the myth, not a game, he had but one weakness, if you clip his Achilles tendon on either foot, he couldn't fight.

If the real Achilles was anything like his depiction in a certain Koei game, he wasn’t that great.

Hence, the Achilles tendon. But actually that's the tendon between ankle and foot, or am I full of shit?

 

[StillStunned]

Hence, the Achilles tendon. But actually that's the tendon between ankle and foot, or am I full of shit?

According to the myth, his mother (Tethys?) was a water nymph, and she held baby Achilles in some special water that made him invulnerable. The only part of his body that wasn't submerged was his ankle, where she held him. Paris, Priam's son and brother of Hector (who had just been killed by Achilles) used a poisoned arrow to shoot Achilles in his heel and killed him. If I recall correctly, Achilles's son then joined the Greek army and shot Paris in the thigh (huh-huh, huh-huh, "thigh" is a euphemism) with another poisoned arrow and killed him.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Turn about being fare play, but it still sucks for the one getting shot.

According to the myth, his mother (Tethys?) was a water nymph, and she held baby Achilles in some special water that made him invulnerable. The only part of his body that wasn't submerged was his ankle, where she held him. Paris, Priam's son and brother of Hector (who had just been killed by Achilles) used a poisoned arrow to shoot Achilles in his heel and killed him. If I recall correctly, Achilles's son then joined the Greek army and shot Paris in the thigh (huh-huh, huh-huh, "thigh" is a euphemism) with another poisoned arrow and killed him.

 

[StillStunned]

Turn about being fare play, but it still sucks for the one getting shot.

It's been a while since I had to do the Iliad at school, but I don't think the last few deaths are actually canon. Extended Universe, so to speak, that got tagged on by other poets. The whole Trojan Horse thing too.

I always thought Hector was more of the hero of the Iliad than Achilles. If you read the scene where he says goodbye to his wife and baby, knowing he's going to have to face Achilles... Ooph.

 

[MelissaBaby]

That there was an epic poet called Homer and that he played the primary part in shaping the Iliad and the Odyssey—so much may be said to be probable. If this assumption is accepted, then Homer must assuredly be one of the greatest of the world’s literary artists.

Excerpt from Ulysses

Come, my friends,
'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down;
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.

I just read an article about this a few weeks ago, I don't recall where. It said that the name "Homer" may have actually been an archaic Greek word meaning "poet" or "storyteller" and that the Homeric Epics were developed and elaborated over generations. They were likely presented at annual festivals where people would gather to hear them recited. Think about it, it would take a few days to reiterate them aloud to an audience.

 

[Djmac1031]

and before I started writing I almost never provided feedback. It just didn't occur to me. I think it's that way for many, many readers.

Which I find incredibly odd, considering anywhere else on the internet, you can't get people to STOP offering their opinions on something lol.

 

[onehitwanda]

It's been a while since I had to do the Iliad at school, but I don't think the last few deaths are actually canon. Extended Universe, so to speak, that got tagged on by other poets. The whole Trojan Horse thing too.

I always thought Hector was more of the hero of the Iliad than Achilles. If you read the scene where he says goodbye to his wife and baby, knowing he's going to have to face Achilles... Ooph.

I've read the Iliad maybe... ten times, I think.

I watched "Troy" once and once only.

Achilles is an Antihero, Hector is an older brother doing what he must to try to save his idiot younger brother's life.

Hector goes to fight Achilles knowing that he killed Patroclus and that Achilles is there to kill him no matter what appeals for clemency he might give.

And he dies for his brother in the dust, with his father Priam and wife Andromache and all the nobles of Troy watching.

And Achilles defiles him, but then regrets his behaviour when Priam comes unarmed through the Greek lines to beg for Hector's body so that he can be ushered on to the Underworld.

it is grim, and it is heartbreaking.

And then, at the end, the Greeks take Troy and burn it and fling Andromache's son from the walls of Troy...

so yeah. That's nice and all.

Then Virgil made up the Aeneid, which is just fucking tedious. Except for poor Dido.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Ulysses is the MC of Oddessy, unsure about the Iliad that came first.

It's been a while since I had to do the Iliad at school, but I don't think the last few deaths are actually canon. Extended Universe, so to speak, that got tagged on by other poets. The whole Trojan Horse thing too.

I always thought Hector was more of the hero of the Iliad than Achilles. If you read the scene where he says goodbye to his wife and baby, knowing he's going to have to face Achilles... Ooph.

Yeah, I'm not an expert on ancient Greece, but Homer is said to have been born, raised, and lived in a country we call Turkey today. So, while he (or whoever) wrote about the Greeks, he wasn't actually a Greek Geek.

I just read an article about this a few weeks ago, I don't recall where. It said that the name "Homer" may have actually been an archaic Greek word meaning "poet" or "storyteller" and that the Homeric Epics were developed and elaborated over generations. They were likely presented at annual festivals where people would gather to hear them recited. Think about it, it would take a few days to reiterate them aloud to an audience.

 

[Djmac1031]

@AchtungNight

Okay, so you asked for honest feedback. Here's mine. For whatever you feel it worth.

You write a LOT of Celebrity Fan Fic. None of that interests me, so I instead looked for something else and went with your newest, Pool Hustle.

Started our with an interesting enough premise, but I realized what was bugging me pretty quickly:

There's absolutely no character dialog.

Your story is written 1st Person limited perspective from the bar owners POV.

And his is the ONLY voice in the story.

We never "hear" the two female characters "speak. Instead what we get is the narrator telling us what they said / did.

This approach gives the story the feel of some tale a buddy would tell you about while sitting around having a beer, and if that's what you were going for, it succeeds.

Problem is, it leaves the story lifeless and without personality.

We get no other perspective, no other voices. It winds up reading like a laundry list:
Intro narrator
Intro women
Set up story
Tell some back story
Quick sex check list
The end


I don't know if this approach is typical of all your stories, but it doesn't work for me.

My advice: give your characters actual personalities. And the only way to do that is let THEM speak.

Give them a voice and watch them come alive.

 

[djrip]

It's been a while since I had to do the Iliad at school, but I don't think the last few deaths are actually canon. Extended Universe, so to speak, that got tagged on by other poets. The whole Trojan Horse thing too.

I always thought Hector was more of the hero of the Iliad than Achilles. If you read the scene where he says goodbye to his wife and baby, knowing he's going to have to face Achilles... Ooph.

I was so irritated when I read it in highschool that it ended before any of the stuff I'd heard about like the horse and Achilles being killed that way.

 

[AchtungNight]

@AchtungNight

Okay, so you asked for honest feedback. Here's mine. For whatever you feel it worth.

You write a LOT of Celebrity Fan Fic. None of that interests me, so I instead looked for something else and went with your newest, Pool Hustle.

Started our with an interesting enough premise, but I realized what was bugging me pretty quickly:

There's absolutely no character dialog.

Your story is written 1st Person limited perspective from the bar owners POV.

And his is the ONLY voice in the story.

We never "hear" the two female characters "speak. Instead what we get is the narrator telling us what they said / did.

This approach gives the story the feel of some tale a buddy would tell you about while sitting around having a beer, and if that's what you were going for, it succeeds.

Problem is, it leaves the story lifeless and without personality.

We get no other perspective, no other voices. It winds up reading like a laundry list:
Intro narrator
Intro women
Set up story
Tell some back story
Quick sex check list
The end


I don't know if this approach is typical of all your stories, but it doesn't work for me.

My advice: give your characters actual personalities. And the only way to do that is let THEM speak.

Give them a voice and watch them come alive.

I was going for the buddy dialogue you describe, thx. I appreciate your assessment. Shauna and Tara did get dialogue in their previous appearances mentioned in the intro and they will get dialogue again when I write about them next. Among my personal challenges with Pool Hustle was to write everything in the voice you describe. I accept that the voice did not work for you. My other stories have more dialogue and this will continue in the future. Pool Hustle is only one example of my work. Every story I write is different in its own way. Or so I try to make things.

Other people have praised me for Pool Hustle. Your criticism is equally valid.

I think a large portion of the issue people have with me here is the lack of respect for a fanfic writer. I’m going to ask- is this really a weakness? Fanfic writers have their craft eased somewhat, yes, but they also have to put a new spin on an old subject. Whether it’s remaking an animated film as live action, inserting new characters into an established story, changing things so Romeo is pursuing Tybalt instead of Juliet, or whatever, we are facing a challenge of telling a story. Same as any other writer. We are not weaker. Our genre is perfectly valid. And our craft is worthy of respect.

But at the end of the day, the audience is either interested or it isn’t. And there’s only one way to find out which is true. Publish your story, nod at the criticism, smile at the praise. Then write the next story if you can.

I am interested in your opinion on other stuff I have written, subject to your interest. Please ignore the categories if possible. Tell me what you want to read and I will see if I have anything close.

Offhand, a story with the characters from Pool Hustle who disappointed you where they speak? Try The Sisters Next Door.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Yeah, I'm not an expert on ancient Greece, but Homer is said to have been born, raised, and lived in a country we call Turkey today. So, while he (or whoever) wrote about the Greeks, he wasn't actually a Greek Geek.

That area was mostly Greek then. The Turks were still wandering around out in the middle of Asia somewhere.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I was going for the buddy dialogue you describe, thx. I appreciate your assessment. Shauna and Tara did get dialogue in their previous appearances mentioned in the intro and they will get dialogue again when I write about them next. Among my personal challenges with Pool Hustle was to write everything in the voice you describe. I accept that the voice did not work for you. My other stories have more dialogue and this will continue in the future. Pool Hustle is only one example of my work. Every story I write is different in its own way. Or so I try to make things.

Other people have praised me for Pool Hustle. Your criticism is equally valid.

I think a large portion of the issue people have with me here is the lack of respect for a fanfic writer. I’m going to ask- is this really a weakness? Fanfic writers have their craft eased somewhat, yes, but they also have to put a new spin on an old subject. Whether it’s remaking an animated film as live action, inserting new characters into an established story, changing things so Romeo is pursuing Tybalt instead of Juliet, or whatever, we are facing a challenge of telling a story. Same as any other writer. We are not weaker. Our genre is perfectly valid. And our craft is worthy of respect.

But at the end of the day, the audience is either interested or it isn’t. And there’s only one way to find out which is true. Publish your story, nod at the criticism, smile at the praise. Then write the next story if you can.

I am interested in your opinion on other stuff I have written, subject to your interest. Please ignore the categories if possible. Tell me what you want to read and I will see if I have anything close.

Offhand, a story with the characters from Pool Hustle who disappointed you where they speak? Try The Sisters Next Door.

Fanfic writers have always had stigmas about being poor quality, lazy writing, shit writers(there are some if not many of those). Even before My Immortal reared it's head. That's why you hear opinions on bad cinema, like; this feels like fanfiction. Although sometimes it is(Twilight). I admit it at the least can be easier writing, but it's truely no different than writing anything else. Anybody who likes what I write here, would probably like my fanfics, on terms of how they're written, at least.

 

[Djmac1031]

My other stories have more dialogue and this will continue in the future. Pool Hustle is only one example of my work. Every story I write is different in its own way. Or so I try to make things.

I suppose my "advice" was probably premature without having checked out any other stories from you.

Because a quick browse of a few others showed indeed your other stories do include dialog from more than one character.

I think a large portion of the issue people have with me here is the lack of respect for a fanfic writer. I’m going to ask- is this really a weakness?

I'm sorry if you inferred "lack of respect" from my comment that I'm not really into fan fic.

It has nothing to do with you or any other writer and just personal preference, just as generally I'm not a fan of LW stories.

I am interested in your opinion on other stuff I have written, subject to your interest.

I will look at some of your other stories when I get a chance.

Again, in retrospect I probably should have held off on my comments / "advice" until I'd at least checked out your work a little more instead of just jumping on one story in particular.

 

[AchtungNight]

Djmac1031- It’s fine. I’m just the kind of person who reads too much into things sometimes. Your feedback was still good. I hope you will enjoy my work when you check it out. And hey, you can have whatever tastes you want. If I get you into a fandom because of my fanfic, that’s a high compliment for me. But if you’re not into it, I’m not going to push you either.