'Selling' slaves... WTF?

[SimonBrooke]

Peace, love, and communes, baby! I'm left, but I'm American left. If the discussion's gonna have any basis in reality, then "all property is imaginary" just doesn't pass the laugh test with me.

But semantics arguments and discussions of personal proclivities seem beside the point here. From the OP, aren't you talking about individuals whom you don't know, and with whom you have no direct contact of any kind?

If we were all standing around on a hill, watching a guy rip the clothes off a struggling female in the distance, would we be chatting about whether or how hot we find rape in fantasy, under what circumstances simulated "rape" would be hot, whether it would be hot in reality, and why we're wired that way? Or would we be pulling out our cell phones to call the police?

All property, like all government, is ultimately imaginary. Just because your brain is not flexible enough to recognise this doesn't affect the fact. If the people around you ceased to believe your property was yours, it wouldn't be (unless you had enough fire-power to hang on to it). If people stop believing in the government, it's called a revolution.

Did we already determine whether selling a bdsm slave is actually illegal or not?

Obviously it is illegal. But, 90% of what we do in BDSM is illegal anyway. The more useful question is, does it have moral force? And my answer is that I believe that even among ourselves it should not do. Being rented out, for fun, in a semi-consensual way may rock some people's boat, in which case fine for them. Being transferred willingly from one master to another, OK, even if money passes the other way. But to be sold without consent, to someone to whom she would not willingly go? I think that should not be acceptable, even if the slave believes it should be.

 

[Primalex]

Obviously it is illegal.

"Obviously" is the short version for "I don't know."

All laws I found regarding this have additional requirements (f.e. coercion) that aren't true for a consensual selling procedure.

 

[JMohegan]

All property, like all government, is ultimately imaginary. Just because your brain is not flexible enough to recognise this doesn't affect the fact. If the people around you ceased to believe your property was yours, it wouldn't be (unless you had enough fire-power to hang on to it). If people stop believing in the government, it's called a revolution.

Property ownership is a legal construct. I understand that legal rights are only as strong as the authority backing them up.

What I don't understand is why people's minds jump to wild hypotheticals, in the middle of a discussion of practical realities.

It's true that if the government dissolves, or Russians invade, or Martians start patrolling the neighborhood, then the title to my car will be absurdly irrelevant. But until that day comes, if you take my car without my permission and I press charges, then you will face the tangible results of your failure to respect my property rights.

And you can blather on all you want to in court, about revolution or the judge's inflexible brain or anything else. But my money's on the legal system, as it actually exists, trumping your "all property is ultimately imaginary" train of thought.

Of course.... prison is ultimately imaginary, since one day we'll all be dead. Right? So maybe it won't be that bad.

 

[Homburg]

What I don't understand is why people's minds jump to wild hypotheticals, in the middle of a discussion of practical realities.

JM, dude. This is a message board. On the internet. It's what we do.

 

[OldGuy1026]

JM, dude. This is a message board. On the internet. It's what we do.

Fifteen years ago, the internet was very very crude and expensive. My Mistress let me go, and I was devastated. You kid have it all very lucky. I envey you so much. You can have the sexual freedom I dreamed about since I first read the Gor books when they first came out.

I'm married, fat, and relatively happy. No more spankings, and no more lonely nights. gad you guys are so lucky

 

[eastern sun]

Of course.... prison is ultimately imaginary, since one day we'll all be dead. Right? So maybe it won't be that bad.

Actually, prisons rely heavily on the collective agreement of the prisoners to be imprisoned. True, the heavy walls and iron gates and guns in the turrets help, but if the collective was willing to sacrifice some casualties to the cause, they dramatically outnumber the guards. It suits the prison-keepers to keep the prisoners in conflict with each other so they don't figure that out.

 

[JMohegan]

Actually, prisons rely heavily on the collective agreement of the prisoners to be imprisoned. True, the heavy walls and iron gates and guns in the turrets help, but if the collective was willing to sacrifice some casualties to the cause, they dramatically outnumber the guards. It suits the prison-keepers to keep the prisoners in conflict with each other so they don't figure that out.

Actually, those walls, gates, and turrets are ultimately imaginary. When the revolution comes, they'll be the first to go!


http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/Prise_de_la_Bastille.jpg

 

[ownedsubgal]

As much as I love and respect you, I have to disagree with the bolded statement. If he orders you to live with someone else, and even receives money from that person, it's still not selling. You went willingly to the new person. "Not supported by the law" is not the same thing as blatantly illegal. The fact is, no country in the world allows one human being to legally own another. You cannot sell what isn't legally your property. Just because there would be repercussions if you left doesn't mean you are his legal property. He can do with you as he sees fit, but in no sense can one human ever legally belong to another.

Remember Delia Day? It's come to light now that she was not everything she seemed to be - that the husband was doing most of the writing - but let's pretend that relationship was as genuine as it was portrayed to be. In the end, we saw that he did not own her. As much as their relationship may have seemed like owner/property, he did not own her. She was no less of a slave for this, and he was no less of a master. But he did not own her.
As much fun as it is, as profoundly devoted as we feel to each other, we have to keep some grounding in reality.

ownership is not defined solely by legality, in my view. obviously for you it is, and that is where we will always disagree. if someone is basically a possession of someone else, if someone else is actively exerting control (physical, psychological, whatever) over their life,, if they are unable to feasibly extricate themselves from the situation if they wished, for whatever reason...then i consider that to be an owned person. the fact that it is against the law to own another human being is irrelevant there...again, merely in my opinion.

this is not a "fun," "hot," sexy fantasy for me. it is the fact that my life and relationship are so firmly grounded in reality that makes it bearable. i would never willingly go to another Owner, but if my Master decided to sell me i would accept the fact that i would have no choice, no other option save perhaps suicide. the law not being on my Master's side would not change the fact that he would send me to another, nor would the law save my life if i decided to attempt to go against his will in such a matter.

 

[Homburg]

Fifteen years ago, the internet was very very crude and expensive. My Mistress let me go, and I was devastated. You kid have it all very lucky. I envey you so much. You can have the sexual freedom I dreamed about since I first read the Gor books when they first came out.

Kids? What? The first time I logged into what would become known later as the internet was 1990, and I'd been dorking around on various BBS' for at least five years prior. I can remember the first time logging onto a BBS and wondering what all the fuss was. Prodigy was where I started really having fun and that was probably late 80's.

--

Actually, prisons rely heavily on the collective agreement of the prisoners to be imprisoned. True, the heavy walls and iron gates and guns in the turrets help, but if the collective was willing to sacrifice some casualties to the cause, they dramatically outnumber the guards. It suits the prison-keepers to keep the prisoners in conflict with each other so they don't figure that out.

Yup, see this for a prominent example of the inmates realising what they are capable of if they really decided to give it a go.

No prison has the manpower to put down a full-scale riot.

 

[Etoile]

Kids? What? The first time I logged into what would become known later as the internet was 1990, and I'd been dorking around on various BBS' for at least five years prior. I can remember the first time logging onto a BBS and wondering what all the fuss was. Prodigy was where I started really having fun and that was probably late 80's.

Greetings from BFXT07B! Remember the 25-cents-per-email they tried imposing? That was when we jumped ship, but we had several good years on Prodigy before that. I used to have so much fun on there.

 

[Homburg]

Greetings from BFXT07B! Remember the 25-cents-per-email they tried imposing? That was when we jumped ship, but we had several good years on Prodigy before that. I used to have so much fun on there.

Heh, that got my mind instantly spinning trying to remember my old ID. I was momentarily distraught that I couldn't recall it

Yeah, I do remember the email charge, as that was when we hopped too. It was a load of fun though. Somewhere I think I still have a print-out or two from a particular discussion that really grabbed me.

 

[HippieSlut]

All Sales Final

I'm finding this discussion fascinating. When I first got into a bdsm relationship, my master collared me and caged me, kept me naked in the house, the usual stuff. But he couldn't really be the master I wanted him to be: he just wasn't dominant enough over me, or maybe I couldn't be submissive enough in the right way, I don't know. So we were working our way to a breakup, but we didn't know how to do that either.

He had a close friend from college who knew I was a slave and had always admired me, and one night, as I was serving them drinks, the friend looked at me, looked at my master and said "Sell her to me." I cannot tell you how wet I got just hearing that: I almost fell to my knees right there.

My master asked me what I thought, and I said I had no objection to him selling me (I knew the other man, and liked him). So we decided to go forward with it. Yeah, it was a game, I wasn't really owned and couldn't really be sold, I could have walked out any time I wanted, and we all understood that. But it affected me on a very, very deep level.

We did a test drive first, where my master gave me to his friend for the weekend, with the understanding among all three of us that he could use me however he wanted and I would be expected to obey my temporary master as I obeyed my real one. Well, it was terrific: I'd always liked him and been curious to be fucked by him, and he'd wanted me and was very pleased by me.

So we arranged the sale. The two men decided on a fair token price for me (some coins my first master, who collected them, wanted to have); I was led out naked and collared in front of a few witnesses who were also into slave play, and my new master put his own collar on me and I was sold to him, and he took me home with him. (Hey, it's one way to break up with somebody, right??)

We were very happy, but after about five or six years we realized the relationship had come to a natural end, and he formally released me from my slavery, no hard feelings, we parted on the best of terms. Would I do it again? I honestly can't say. If the circumstances were the same, probably. I'm unowned at present, so being under a master's hand again would be nice. In the meantime, I write stories here, and read the forums...I just thought you might like to hear what one slave experienced being "sold."

 

[LeatherChaps]

I'm finding this discussion fascinating. When I first got into a bdsm relationship, my master collared me and caged me, kept me naked in the house, the usual stuff. But he couldn't really be the master I wanted him to be: he just wasn't dominant enough over me, or maybe I couldn't be submissive enough in the right way, I don't know. So we were working our way to a breakup, but we didn't know how to do that either.

He had a close friend from college who knew I was a slave and had always admired me, and one night, as I was serving them drinks, the friend looked at me, looked at my master and said "Sell her to me." I cannot tell you how wet I got just hearing that: I almost fell to my knees right there.

My master asked me what I thought, and I said I had no objection to him selling me (I knew the other man, and liked him). So we decided to go forward with it. Yeah, it was a game, I wasn't really owned and couldn't really be sold, I could have walked out any time I wanted, and we all understood that. But it affected me on a very, very deep level.

We did a test drive first, where my master gave me to his friend for the weekend, with the understanding among all three of us that he could use me however he wanted and I would be expected to obey my temporary master as I obeyed my real one. Well, it was terrific: I'd always liked him and been curious to be fucked by him, and he'd wanted me and was very pleased by me.

So we arranged the sale. The two men decided on a fair token price for me (some coins my first master, who collected them, wanted to have); I was led out naked and collared in front of a few witnesses who were also into slave play, and my new master put his own collar on me and I was sold to him, and he took me home with him. (Hey, it's one way to break up with somebody, right??)

We were very happy, but after about five or six years we realized the relationship had come to a natural end, and he formally released me from my slavery, no hard feelings, we parted on the best of terms. Would I do it again? I honestly can't say. If the circumstances were the same, probably. I'm unowned at present, so being under a master's hand again would be nice. In the meantime, I write stories here, and read the forums...I just thought you might like to hear what one slave experienced being "sold."

This reminds me of The Story of O, which I watched the other night on netflix.
Here's the link btw http://www.netflix.com/WiMovie/The_Story_of_O/60020532?trkid=1537778

 

[x_wired_x]

I'm finding this discussion fascinating. When I first got into a bdsm relationship, my master collared me and caged me, kept me naked in the house, the usual stuff. But he couldn't really be the master I wanted him to be: he just wasn't dominant enough over me, or maybe I couldn't be submissive enough in the right way, I don't know. So we were working our way to a breakup, but we didn't know how to do that either.

He had a close friend from college who knew I was a slave and had always admired me, and one night, as I was serving them drinks, the friend looked at me, looked at my master and said "Sell her to me." I cannot tell you how wet I got just hearing that: I almost fell to my knees right there.

My master asked me what I thought, and I said I had no objection to him selling me (I knew the other man, and liked him). So we decided to go forward with it. Yeah, it was a game, I wasn't really owned and couldn't really be sold, I could have walked out any time I wanted, and we all understood that. But it affected me on a very, very deep level.

We did a test drive first, where my master gave me to his friend for the weekend, with the understanding among all three of us that he could use me however he wanted and I would be expected to obey my temporary master as I obeyed my real one. Well, it was terrific: I'd always liked him and been curious to be fucked by him, and he'd wanted me and was very pleased by me.

So we arranged the sale. The two men decided on a fair token price for me (some coins my first master, who collected them, wanted to have); I was led out naked and collared in front of a few witnesses who were also into slave play, and my new master put his own collar on me and I was sold to him, and he took me home with him. (Hey, it's one way to break up with somebody, right??)

We were very happy, but after about five or six years we realized the relationship had come to a natural end, and he formally released me from my slavery, no hard feelings, we parted on the best of terms. Would I do it again? I honestly can't say. If the circumstances were the same, probably. I'm unowned at present, so being under a master's hand again would be nice. In the meantime, I write stories here, and read the forums...I just thought you might like to hear what one slave experienced being "sold."

Interesting. What happened to your original owner? Did you see him still?

The idea of a play exchange like this is appealing on some level, but I would be hard pressed to just forget the deep connect (and love) I felt for my Owner and just walk away from it because he said to. But I'm kinda that squishy, lovey, dovey, girly who just wants a smack every so often. Being given away like I was nothing to the him would be crushing.

 

[YourCaptor]

I'm finding this discussion fascinating. When I first got into a bdsm relationship, my master collared me and caged me, kept me naked in the house, the usual stuff. But he couldn't really be the master I wanted him to be: he just wasn't dominant enough over me, or maybe I couldn't be submissive enough in the right way, I don't know. So we were working our way to a breakup, but we didn't know how to do that either.

He had a close friend from college who knew I was a slave and had always admired me, and one night, as I was serving them drinks, the friend looked at me, looked at my master and said "Sell her to me." I cannot tell you how wet I got just hearing that: I almost fell to my knees right there.

My master asked me what I thought, and I said I had no objection to him selling me (I knew the other man, and liked him). So we decided to go forward with it. Yeah, it was a game, I wasn't really owned and couldn't really be sold, I could have walked out any time I wanted, and we all understood that. But it affected me on a very, very deep level.

We did a test drive first, where my master gave me to his friend for the weekend, with the understanding among all three of us that he could use me however he wanted and I would be expected to obey my temporary master as I obeyed my real one. Well, it was terrific: I'd always liked him and been curious to be fucked by him, and he'd wanted me and was very pleased by me.

So we arranged the sale. The two men decided on a fair token price for me (some coins my first master, who collected them, wanted to have); I was led out naked and collared in front of a few witnesses who were also into slave play, and my new master put his own collar on me and I was sold to him, and he took me home with him. (Hey, it's one way to break up with somebody, right??)

We were very happy, but after about five or six years we realized the relationship had come to a natural end, and he formally released me from my slavery, no hard feelings, we parted on the best of terms. Would I do it again? I honestly can't say. If the circumstances were the same, probably. I'm unowned at present, so being under a master's hand again would be nice. In the meantime, I write stories here, and read the forums...I just thought you might like to hear what one slave experienced being "sold."

I call bullshit, theirs no hippies in LA.

I don't think I'd ever sell a girl for coins. What would be a good price for a slave? Depending on her quality, I'd say anything from 500 - 50,000.

 

[x_wired_x]

I call bullshit, theirs no hippies in LA.

I don't think I'd ever sell a girl for coins. What would be a good price for a slave? Depending on her quality, I'd say anything from 500 - 50,000.

Haha, maybe they were rare hippie coins.

 

[HippieSlut]

Actually, they were quite valuable antique coins. Since the purchase was of course non-binding (in the legal sense; in the other sense there was plenty of binding going on indeed), my price wasn't as high as it might have been had my sale been "real", but it was well up into the high 4 figure range...I felt very proud. And considering that I was my second master's slave for some years, I think he got quite a good bargain.

As for walking away from my first master, as I said, the relationship was over and we were just trying to find a satisfyingly final way to end it. We did see him from time to time once I was sold, and I was even given to him to use a few times, for auld lang syne.

And there were certainly hippies in LA!

 

[LunachickXXX]

Looking at this whole situation from a different perspective...for individuals into slave-play, lending or trading/renting subs for a certain amount of time seems to be a ubiquitous practice. So I don't think the problem lies in the exchange itself, it really has more to do with the method of advertisement, and the exchange of money involved.

However, professional Dom's sell their services all the time. They are discrete, and usually won't use mainstream venues to advertise their services (i.e. The smart ones will use word-of-mouth and appropriate venues for ads etc). They treat it like a job, and time = money so they need to get compensated somehow. Many people go w/ professional doms b/c they want the professional experience & it's non-invasive (maybe they are hiding their fetish from the public or a partner, or don't have time to explore scenes and events?)

So, what if a sub or slave does the same thing? What if there are subs out there, who sell their services? And the nature of being a sub/slave (PYL/pyl...excuse my usage of these terms, they aren't interchangable I'm just trying not to be too vague) it would most likely be their master handling the transaction.

Best bet, I'm OKAY w/ someone selling their slave professionally, just as I'm fine w/ Doms selling their services professionally- as long as it is truly "slave-play" and not a real life situation in which the slave literally has no choice or mobility in the situation. Does this make sense?

 

[YourCaptor]

Actually, they were quite valuable antique coins. Since the purchase was of course non-binding (in the legal sense; in the other sense there was plenty of binding going on indeed), my price wasn't as high as it might have been had my sale been "real", but it was well up into the high 4 figure range...I felt very proud. And considering that I was my second master's slave for some years, I think he got quite a good bargain.

As for walking away from my first master, as I said, the relationship was over and we were just trying to find a satisfyingly final way to end it. We did see him from time to time once I was sold, and I was even given to him to use a few times, for auld lang syne.

And there were certainly hippies in LA!

Nope, I once saw a half hippie of sorts. She was too hot and too clean to be a real one though.

You know how people fix up their house right before they sell, hows that work for slaves.

Hippies are everywhere. They've just changed clothes since the 70's

(they're insidious that way).

If they change clothes the hippieness is lost. The only hippies I've seen are in the Haight and scattered along interstate on ramps in Oregon and Washington.

Looking at this whole situation from a different perspective...for individuals into slave-play, lending or trading/renting subs for a certain amount of time seems to be a ubiquitous practice. So I don't think the problem lies in the exchange itself, it really has more to do with the method of advertisement, and the exchange of money involved.

However, professional Dom's sell their services all the time. They are discrete, and usually won't use mainstream venues to advertise their services (i.e. The smart ones will use word-of-mouth and appropriate venues for ads etc). They treat it like a job, and time = money so they need to get compensated somehow. Many people go w/ professional doms b/c they want the professional experience & it's non-invasive (maybe they are hiding their fetish from the public or a partner, or don't have time to explore scenes and events?)

So, what if a sub or slave does the same thing? What if there are subs out there, who sell their services? And the nature of being a sub/slave (PYL/pyl...excuse my usage of these terms, they aren't interchangable I'm just trying not to be too vague) it would most likely be their master handling the transaction.

Best bet, I'm OKAY w/ someone selling their slave professionally, just as I'm fine w/ Doms selling their services professionally- as long as it is truly "slave-play" and not a real life situation in which the slave literally has no choice or mobility in the situation. Does this make sense?

Pro subs do exist.

 

[LunachickXXX]

I haven't come across any pro subs, so from someone who has, do these advertisements look like they could be written by pro subs or their masters whom are soliciting them? Or do you sense this is something entirely different?

 

[YourCaptor]

I haven't come across any pro subs, so from someone who has, do these advertisements look like they could be written by pro subs or their masters whom are soliciting them? Or do you sense this is something entirely different?

Search through your local bondage club. They usually work with the same groups that do dom stuff and have professional websites for their business. I assume you buy a time slot, show up and tie them up or something. I don't think they advertise.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Nope, I once saw a half hippie of sorts. She was too hot and too clean to be a real one though.

You know how people fix up their house right before they sell, hows that work for slaves.



If they change clothes the hippieness is lost. The only hippies I've seen are in the Haight and scattered along interstate on ramps in Oregon and Washington.



Pro subs do exist.

I totally agree with this. Any time I get out of the cotton peasant gear and take off my peace sign button-- hey presto, I become a corporate drone with high blood pressure and a martini habit-- and an investment portfolio. I put those clothes back on and my bank account disappears but my organic garden re-manifests itself...

Weird, isn't it? Clothes really do make the man.

 

[midwestyankee]

I totally agree with this. Any time I get out of the cotton peasant gear and take off my peace sign button-- hey presto, I become a corporate drone with high blood pressure and a martini habit-- and an investment portfolio. I put those clothes back on and my bank account disappears but my organic garden re-manifests itself...

Weird, isn't it? Clothes really do make the man.

Wondering if I could make my investment portfolio reappear by locating some old, old gear that may well be up in the attic somewhere. Surely there's a pair of bell-bottomed jeans up there that I could put back on long enough to take them off to make the portfolio reappear.

Good thinking, friend. Please pass this on the President as I hear he's looking for more good ideas on recovery from this recession thing we have going on.

Peace.

 

[teknight]

So many posts I'd like to reply to, but those conversations are gonna run up my post bill, and I'm trying to keep to a limit.

I will however ask this: What would the responses on the thread look like if prostitution were legal all around, instead of the immorally illegal BS that it is today?

It is immoral for prostitution to be illegal, btw, because:
a) it's done so politicians and their voters can feel good about being moral, without considering the consequences
b) it doesn't work. It's not like there are no prostitutes 'cause it's illegal.
c) it's implicitly robbing the prostitutes (male, female, whatever) of rights, protections, and being afforded the chance to dignity by society. It's also making it possible for what would otherwise be legitimate businesspeople to actually be abusive assholes. (I'm talking about pimps and madams: seriously, if it were a legit business, a girl/prostitute/whatever could just quit her job with a bad pimp and move to one that offered more benefits, assuming she didn't wanna go into business by herself).
d) it forces the whole thing underground where all these horrible abuses can take place.
e) it is denying true human nature.
f) etc.
That's my 2 cents...

 

[YourCaptor]

I totally agree with this. Any time I get out of the cotton peasant gear and take off my peace sign button-- hey presto, I become a corporate drone with high blood pressure and a martini habit-- and an investment portfolio. I put those clothes back on and my bank account disappears but my organic garden re-manifests itself...

Weird, isn't it? Clothes really do make the man.

The clothes are a result of the lifestyle, hippies don't have the luxury of choosing their outfit.