Serious Debate About the Competitions

[Nezhul]

I admit I'm puzzled that people don't know contests are happening, because they're announced on the site's front page. Maybe they could put them in a bigger font or something?

Well, you see, why would I go to the Lit's main page? What useful is there for me as a writer? I admit I don't actually read many stories here, and when I do, I do so with the search engine. So my bookmarks are on my member's area and on the search. And on forums too, but I visit here on and off.

 

[NotWise]

I don't know why the contests need to be several times larger than they are. Can you explain what is to be gained by that and who would gain it?

If we don't accept the idea that the contest should be so much larger, then the rest of the complaints (and solutions) seem to go away.

 

[CyranoJ]

Well, you see, why would I go to the Lit's main page? What useful is there for me as a writer? I admit I don't actually read many stories here, and when I do, I do so with the search engine. So my bookmarks are on my member's area and on the search. And on forums too, but I visit here on and off.

I dunno what to tell you, man. When I use a site the first place I go are where they put announcements about things like contests and new site features. I don't see why one wouldn't. I guess maybe it's that I interacted with this place as a reader long before I wrote here, and I still mostly approach it that way.

 

[RejectReality]

I didn't say he had a cabal, I said he was claiming there was a cabal.

Us.

Me, you, everyone in the AH was an evil cabal trading votes and leaving glowing comments on each other's work without reading it in order to keep all the wins "in the family" When we also commented on newcomers stories it was passed off as alts of AHers and not real people. Ditto for the first time winners.

You know that was a crock because you weren't doing it. It didn't stop him from spouting it through every contest and recruiting people to join in the cacophony.

There's nothing in this latest accusation that hasn't been done before. Actually, it's a conglomeration of everything that's been done before.

There was a time when people in the AH made a point of reading, voting, and commenting on as many contest stories as possible. Between scouries and the people who subscribed to those theories, that no longer happens. A major element of support that used to be present here is gone, never to return, because you paint a target on your forehead if you do.

People used to be able to openly ask for votes in order to push them over the minimum so they would be qualified. That too was shamed out of existence, forcing it into the shadows of PMs and making it look even more shady than it was portrayed when done openly.

The contests are being destroyed by this noise. They're no different than they were a decade ago, save for the no-chapter rule. The difference is the constant accusations.

You want an example of someone who has been driven off by this garbage?

2006 - 48 submissions, 2 to contests.
2007 - 37 submissions, 9 to contests.
2008 - 38 submissions, 8 to contests.
2009 - 19 submissions, 7 to contests.
2010 - 12 submissions, 11 to contests.
2011 - 15 submissions, 10 to contests.
2012 - 15 submissions, 6 to contests.
2013 - 18 submissions, 5 to contests.
2014 - 7 submissions, 3 to contests.
2015 - 9 submissions, 1 to contests.
2016 - 1 submission, 0 to contests.

And in the last 3 years, a full quarter of my submissions were written for contests on other sites. Most of the rest that has posted was started years earlier, and only finished in the last couple of years.

I didn't even want to admit it to myself, but the contests were a driver for me after my wife passed in 2008, and with participation being an invitation for attack, it's not only broken my will to write for the contests, but to write at all.

 

[MindsMirror]

We didn't know about the competitions and we'd been long time readers. Like many folks, we bookmark the section we're interested in and never got to the main page for the web site. Likewise, we didn't even know or investigate the forums until recently. Our initial impression was that the forums were for picking up people and that didn't interest us.

Luckily we discovered the Authors' Hangout and some interesting threads. With the upcoming revamp of the Member areas, we think some type of notification area could be added to the www.literotica.com/my page.

We have found the contests to be a mix of good and bad. They definitely bring exposure. There is definitely a lot of stress as the 1 votes roll in and other stories are effected. We'll probably enter again, just not any time soon.
-MM

 

[8letters]

Could it be that I actually do care about something greater than myself? This topic has nothing to do with airing a grievance but all to do with coming up, collectively, with useful ideas on how to make it better for everyone; site owner, readers and writers, alike.

And how exactly will this thread do that? As opposed to all the other threads about contests that you've commented in?

Yes, it is true, I have stated that I will not enter any more competitions in their current form, a rider you have either missed or (deliberately?) overlooked, and I stand by that.

There's no evidence that any change is coming to contests, so you're not going to enter any more competitions for the foreseeable future. The only change coming that I'm aware of is Ogg is trying to reword the OP for the support thread for each contest. LitE has been spent this year trying to get a change to the control panel beta tested. I'm not sure that has even happened. I don't think it's a good assumption that LitE will make changes to the site for contests.

If you were serious about doing some good, you could have pulled together a list of ideas for improving contests from recent contest threads. Categorize them somehow. This looks to me like another attempt by you for attention on your feelings about contests.

 

[jsmiam]

...

You said, and confirmed (other threads) that your rage and drama, was based on the first eight.. 8... votes, of your contest entry. Sorry, that was and still is just crazy. You have clogged the forums with complaints, based on the first 8 votes of your story. Google "sample size", and if necessary, find someone you trust with a math background to explain it to you.

Some people bombed your story. It happens to everyone. You overreacted in record breaking speed.

 

[TxRad]

Enough about the past. Now for the future.

1: Don't show scores until the contest is over.
2: No anonymous commenting.
3: No anonymous voting.

Those three alone should do away with a lot of the bombing. or at least distribute it more evenly. They can't just bomb the top scores, they have to bomb all of them.

Some kind of announcement in the authors control panel and other areas besides the main page.

That should draw in more authors.

But the big question is, will Laurel do anything with the suggestions.

 

[NotWise]

But the big question is, will Laurel do anything with the suggestions.

Probably not unless she sees the changes as being in her interest, and no-one here has argued that it is.

As it is, the effort needed to get contest submissions reviewed and posted is sufficient that at times it postpones posting of non-contest stories and delays requested edits.

If the site is successfully changed to make the contests larger and/or more inclusive then it will take more of Laurel's time for editing and posting the stories and more delays on other tasks. Making the changes would require Manu's time and staff time (overhead).

If this thread is to be a "serious" debate then seriously someone should explain why it would be advantageous for Laurel.

 

[MindsMirror]

1: Don't show scores until the contest is over.
2: No anonymous commenting.
3: No anonymous voting.

We too have wondered if something like this would work, but these rules should only be in place until the contest is over.

 

[TxRad]

We too have wondered if something like this would work, but these rules should only be in place until the contest is over.

Only during the contest is what i had in mind.

 

[oggbashan]

I don't know why the contests need to be several times larger than they are. Can you explain what is to be gained by that and who would gain it?

If the contests attracted thousands of entries and tens of thousands of votes any gaming or manipulation would have a negligible effect on the results.

1 and 5 bombs only change things if the story has a small total of votes. A dozen 1 bombs on a story with 10,000 votes would barely move the rating.

One or two 1 bombs on a story with 30 votes changes the rating substantially.

There would be no point in entering early, or late, or in a low voting category. Those ploys would be negated by the large total of votes.

If we don't accept the idea that the contest should be so much larger, then the rest of the complaints (and solutions) seem to go away.

I don't think they do. If stories have fewer votes, manipulating or trying to manipulate the rating is much easier.

My Halloween Entry King of the Castle had about 35-40 votes in total varying as the sweeps happened. A single 1 bomb could take away its Red H. A 5 vote could put the Red H back. It was never a real contender because its rating didn't reach 4.60.

If that story had had a thousand votes, a single vote of 1 or of 5 wouldn't have changed the rating enough to notice.

That explains the suggestion that putting a story in a low voting category gives the author an advantage - because a few votes added or subtracted can alter the rating enough to make it a winner (or a non-contender if a sweep takes it below the 25 vote minimum).

The same explanation accounts for the suggestion that entering at the last minute is an advantage - fewer votes gives more opportunity to alter the rating by getting fans, friends and family to 5 bomb it.

But if there are a thousand entries and tens of thousands of votes? Then do you have enough fans, friends and family to really change the rating? It would be much more difficult to manipulate the contest.

 

[TxRad]

Probably not unless she sees the changes as being in her interest, and no-one here has argued that it is.

As it is, the effort needed to get contest submissions reviewed and posted is sufficient that at times it postpones posting of non-contest stories and delays requested edits.

If the site is successfully changed to make the contests larger and/or more inclusive then it will take more of Laurel's time for editing and posting the stories and more delays on other tasks. Making the changes would require Manu's time and staff time (overhead).

If this thread is to be a "serious" debate then seriously someone should explain why it would be advantageous for Laurel.

These contests started out for fun and games, mostly here in the AH. The whole original purpose of the site was to give Laurel reading material as I understand it. Is that still the case? Who knows.

 

[oggbashan]

Advantages for Literotica? For the contest winners?

From Literotica's point of view, the contests generate more product for the readers to appreciate.

The disadvantage is that more stories submitted means more work for Laurel to review. If she had assistant reviewers, one of whom could be tasked to review contest entries only, then more entries and more exposure for the contests would be good. But that means paying someone to do the work. Are the contests worth the expense?

Advantages to the winners?

The money prizes are not life-changing. There are amateur writing contests that pay larger sums to the winners. Some pay less. My local writers' group run an annual contest open to all people resident in the county of Kent. The prizes for each category - fiction, non-fiction, poetry - are small. The winner gets £25; second gets £10 and third gets £5 but their winning entries are read at a public reading event.

That local contest has about 1,500 entries for fiction; 500 for non-fiction; and over 1,000 for poetry yet the writers group has a membership of about 60. The task of reviewing the contest entries which are reviewed without revealing any details of the author is massive. Members are not eligible to enter.

The final judgement on a short list of about thirty is made by an independent published author, a different one each year. But if you win, what do you get? The cash? Yes. The public reading? Yes. A tiny mention in the local newspaper? Sometimes. But it really does nothing for your status as a writer.

The Literotica contest winners are exposed to far more people than my local contest. But what does that mean? Does it mean publishers will be emailing you? Unlikely because the paying market for erotica is small. Does it mean you can put it on your business card or your business profile? Again unlikely because most Literotica authors write under pseudonyms.

Apart from the money you have a Blue W in your list of stories. That's it.

 

[sr71plt]

OK, off the top let me establish that, throughout everything that's been brought up by the contests, I've entered every one for the last ten years except an Earth Day one a few years ago when, instead, I posted comparison critiques of the entries based on criteria I thought should be weighed on the relative quality of the stories (and that I hoped would encourage more story quality-base voting). I enter because the exercise has other awards than winning what isn't really a legitimate quality-based writing contest.

That established, I don't feel any responsibility for expanding the number of entries in the contest. That's a Web site issue. I'm only responsible for what I do in a contest. Winning money isn't a motivator for me and I've consistently said that awarding money in a contest as loose as this is one of the problems--it's fostering cheating in a contest that's easily cheated. (The one time I won money, I very publicly turned it down.)

Participation isn't going downhill merely because people are pointing to various ways it's being cheated (to gain monetary reward)--although the theories on that have gotten really wild; it's going downhill because people are realizing that it is being cheated. As long as they didn't see this, they could see the fun/group participation aspect of it more. Now they get the sour taste that it is being manipulated (for the money) and it doesn't set right with them. So, those blaming pointing to the cheating (although some of the conspiracy theories on the cheating are pretty wild--when you brush those aside, you still have the cheating point to by the massive sweeps) are essentially complaining that it's best for people to continue being duped about what's happening. That wouldn't be so bad if folks weren't making money off of duping others.

The participants started declining when the Web site itself acknowledged massive cheating by starting the sweep program. And then, yes, it continues because cheating is now being openly identified (and, yes, exaggerated, I think) and harped on.

Those who are in it for the fun and fringe benefits will just continue being in it, though. If they drop out, it is, I think, a function of the sour taste of cheaters getting money for this.

A note on the "lack of incentive" claim giving further up the line, though. The money is incentive enough for this contest. There isn't anyone else much who is going to give you $150 for a story or even $100 or $75. The problem is in combining monetary award with the genuine knowledge--basically acknowledged by the sweep system, with no particular reason to believe in the integrity of the unexplained sweep system itself--that winning can be/is sometimes being manipulated.

If the Web site wants to have a lot of entries (some posters seem to want that; I don't care), yes it should continue to allow the anonymous voting and commenting, but it should clean up the belief in the contest. I suppose that stifling discussion of reality, as some here suggest, would help do that. That, of course, is just dishonest, but I see it as in keeping with the head-in-the ground approach of the Web site.

If the Web site wants to improve the integrity of the contests, it could go to restricting the voting/commenting and even get rid of the money awards. It could also experiment with different types of contest, even (*gasp*) having one or two that actually award on the basis of story quality. Will it? There's no evidence this will ever happen.

Another sour note that's crept into the contests is the realization that people will upvote novellas and novels in some sort of naive thought that longer means better (and authors certainly have latched into this formula of advantage). This, as I have noted before, could be dealt with by splitting the contest--one for short stories (no longer than four Lit. pages) and one for longer works (five Lit pages and above). Short stories and novellas/novels are two entirely different modes of writing. If the money is kept, it could just be split. It's still enough incentive to contest for on a free-use Web site.

Will the Web site do anything? I doubt it. It already has set up what is happening by recognizing massive cheating through instituting the sweeps system--which, indeed, other conspiracy theories aside, has verified the existence of massive cheating.

 

[sr71plt]

Apart from the money you have a Blue W in your list of stories. That's it.

And for some, who have tried real hard to win the contests, it has been evidence of a "best writer of erotica" claim put in marketplace book blurbs. I believe this is a cornerstone point in discussion of a voting block existing (or having existed) here in the contests. That's something that maybe will fade, as it hasn't seemed to have much to do with sales (with the sales of half the books in question being what we know of as a Scouries Sale--meaning it's given away for free).

 

[NotWise]

Ogg,

Your arguments for increasing contest participation seem to relate to the number of votes for the entries, rather than to the number of entries in the contest. I agree that it would be great to have more votes per story in the contest, but how do you propose getting tens of thousands of votes for each entry?

From Literotica's point of view, the contests generate more product for the readers to appreciate.

This is something I wonder about. I know that both of my contest entries this year were made by postponing other stories. From me, the site had no net gain in the product they had for readers -- it may actually have worked in reverse because I put more time into the contest stories than I probably would have put into a different story. If other people work the way I did, then the contests don't increase the number of stories posted.

Do the contests increase the quality of the stories? Contest winners are usually among the highest-rated stories in their categories, so I suspect they do improve the quality as measured by ratings.

As an aside, it might be interesting to have a juried contest rather than a contest based on reader ratings.

I appreciated the increased views that all of my stories got after I entered the Valentine's Day Contest, but that entry was in a popular category. My Summer Luvin' story went into a more limited category and my views on other stories didn't change much at all.

The increased exposure from entering a contest is probably highly variable, but it's good when it happens.

 

[oggbashan]

Ogg,

Your arguments for increasing contest participation seem to relate to the number of votes for the entries, rather than to the number of entries in the contest. I agree that it would be great to have more votes per story in the contest, but how do you propose getting tens of thousands of votes for each entry?

...

The statistics for number of visits to the Literotica site per day are massive. If the contests were more visible, say a banner at the head, or at the side, of each story page, then increasing the votes would be easy.

BUT - These contests started as just a bit of fun to amuse authors. Originally they weren't taken too seriously. Now some people take them far too seriously and think the results matter. They don't. All the votes and rating indicate is the relative popularity of a story, nothing else. Quality? That isn't measured. Literary merit? What is that? - your definition might not match mine and is not a numerical value.

For years the contests have been my incentive to start or to finish stories. Without them my posted output would be less than 100. I find that writing to a time target and a specified theme is easier than writing (or more importantly completing) a story with no deadline. Some of my non-contest stories have dropped off the new list with less than ten votes, no comments, and no favorites. I have sometimes felt that I was writing for no audience at all. Even my less popular contest entries get some attention even if some of it is irritating.

I'd write for the contests even if there were no prizes for winning except the Blue W. I know other authors have a different view but I find it difficult to understand that some people are obsessed with their ratings and with the possibility of winning.

Of course I look at my contest stories' ratings but I'm not particularly worried if a story is at 3.40 or 4.40. I've finished it. I've posted it. I've moved on even if the contest is still running.

I like receiving reasonable comments even if the reader didn't like my story. I'm not happy with attack comments directed at me, not the story, but I can delete them. My contest stories get comments. My non-contest stories get fewer or none. That alone is a reason for me to keep entering the contests.

Yes, I have Blue Ws. Three are for essays. Only one is for a story and I think that was one of my best. Even if I had no Blue Ws I'd keep entering the contests no matter how flawed they are because they help me to finish stories.

 

[sr71plt]

BUT - These contests started as just a bit of fun to amuse authors. Originally they weren't taken too seriously. Now some people take them far too seriously and think the results matter. They don't. All the votes and rating indicate is the relative popularity of a story, nothing else. Quality? That isn't measured. Literary merit? What is that? - your definition might not match mine and is not a numerical value.

Fun contests to amuse authors don't require monetary reward. Monetary reward encourages trying hard to win--by any means possible, and the loose nature of the contests makes a lot of cheating possible.

 

[RejectReality]

Two words: Confirmation bias.

When you cherry-pick your examples from only a specific group of "bad people" or the winners, you're always going to find what you're looking for.

How many late entries were never in contention, or never got enough votes to qualify? How many squicky stories finished at the bottom of the pack, rather than rising to the top because all the knee-jerk squick votes were removed?

This is how all these conspiracy theories have to operate, because they fall apart when the big picture comes into play.

 

[sr71plt]

Two words: Confirmation bias.

When you cherry-pick your examples from only a specific group of "bad people" or the winners, you're always going to find what you're looking for.

How many late entries were never in contention, or never got enough votes to qualify? How many squicky stories finished at the bottom of the pack, rather than rising to the top because all the knee-jerk squick votes were removed?

This is how all these conspiracy theories have to operate, because they fall apart when the big picture comes into play.

I'm not sure who/what you are addressing here. I think my post went beyond this, and I don't see this as addressing anything recent in the postings.

You certainly aren't responding to my splitting between short stories and novellas/novels discussion. All three winners this time are in the novella/novel category (the audio one says it's 65 minutes). How many winners this year would be in the novella/novel category? My win this year was.

What I see is you cherry-picking what you address, RR, and you've been shilling for the Web site for some time now (and, disconcertingly, jumping back and forth in alts in your postings). Truth be told, your cleaving close to the Web site's head-in-the-ground silence on the issues I express on the contests (as you have done in this post of yours) isn't where I started not really giving you much credence on discussions of the contests--it was a few years back when you entered a contest with a story that had its voting blocked and thought that was fine--to get the perks of the contest without actually entering the contest--and the Web site didn't delete your entry from the contest list. From that point, you lost me in discussing the contests or in seeing any separation between you and the head-in-the-ground attitudes of the Web site.

 

[StrangeLife]

Another sour note that's crept into the contests is the realization that people will upvote novellas and novels in some sort of naive thought that longer means better (and authors certainly have latched into this formula of advantage). This, as I have noted before, could be dealt with by splitting the contest--one for short stories (no longer than four Lit. pages) and one for longer works (five Lit pages and above). Short stories and novellas/novels are two entirely different modes of writing. If the money is kept, it could just be split. It's still enough incentive to contest for on a free-use Web site.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I'm not so sure about this one.

Yes, it is true that the winner of this years contest was a massive 24 pages, but it was also very good. I don't believe that you can win simply by submitting 20 pages of suck. The writing has to reach a certain level as well, and let's face it - writing a long story while keeping the quality up requires proportionally more work. It is only fair that the readers acknowledge that fact when voting. I also suspect that length can work against you, if the readers get bored of the story before finishing and drop it with a "1" for wasting their time.

So all in all I don't think we need a division between short and longer stories. Splitting the prize up in more categories will devaluate it - and I am not talking about monetary value here. Having just one winner makes that "w" so much more desirable.

The statistics for number of visits to the Literotica site per day are massive. If the contests were more visible, say a banner at the head, or at the side, of each story page, then increasing the votes would be easy.

Yes, this would definitely be a good idea. That link on the main page is not very dominant. A big and colorful banner would lure more writers and readers to the contests.

Fun contests to amuse authors don't require monetary reward. Monetary reward encourages trying hard to win--by any means possible, and the loose nature of the contests makes a lot of cheating possible.

Like Oggbashan said, the money is not life-changing. You could make ten times more working a minimum wage job, if you consider the time and effort involved in writing a winning story. But putting a $-sign on the prize makes it extra fun. It's like playing poker with friends - it's more fun if you have a few bucks on the line.

 

[sr71plt]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I'm not so sure about this one.

Yes, it is true that the winner of this years contest was a massive 24 pages, but it was also very good. I don't believe that you can win simply by submitting 20 pages of suck. The writing has to reach a certain level as well, and let's face it - writing a long story while keeping the quality up requires proportionally more work. It is only fair that the readers acknowledge that fact when voting. I also suspect that length can work against you, if the readers get bored of the story before finishing and drop it with a "1" for wasting their time.

Well, as I suggested to RR, you could go back over the year and check the lengths of the winning entries. I have said that I think this has become a novella/novel contest helped by the nature of voting by length (by the end, those who have stuck with it and going to give it a 5). You or RR can check that out if you think I'm wrong. If it's true, why would folks enter to win if they weren't entering a novella/novel? I think anyone who has this concern is justified. Short stories and novella/novels are two different modes. This could be solved and the contests would be more open and entered if they were split. Will they be? I doubt it. Will the Web site or its shills even discuss this? Nope.

 

[sr71plt]

Like Oggbashan said, the money is not life-changing. You could make ten times more working a minimum wage job, if you consider the time and effort involved in writing a winning story. But putting a $-sign on the prize makes it extra fun. It's like playing poker with friends - it's more fun if you have a few bucks on the line.

Whether or not it's life changing is irrelevant and sort of silly in response to the discussion I provided on the monetary aspect. Apparently no one wants to seriously discuss the actual effect of monetary reward on a "fun contest." I've been mentioning it for years to a response of head-in-the-ground silence.

 

[RejectReality]

I wasn't really addressing your points, SR. I suppose I should have quoted someone, but I was being lazy. I assumed the points that followed would make it clear I was addressing the conspiracy theories.

You know full well that I've said in the past that I wouldn't care if the money was taken out of the contests, and that it undoubtedly leads some people to resort to shenanigans. Where we disagree is who is primarily responsible for those shenanigans, and the degree to which the sweeps take care of it.

I've always said that longer stories likely have an advantage because the numbers over the long term and site-wide bear that out. I would have no problem with a word count restriction, or contests split into short stories and novella+.

Oh, and I never turned off voting on a story. I asked Laurel to not consider it for a winner's spot, should it score highly enough to attain such, which it did.

I've also addressed the switching pen names in the past. All my pen names are logged in through different browsers for convenience. Whichever browser I'm using at a given moment determines who you get when I post, which is why you don't see Les very often. I only use Firefox on a very limited number of sites.