Serious Debate About the Competitions

[NicoleZ]

If you were serious about doing some good, you could have pulled together a list of ideas for improving contests

Thank you, but there is a seriously good debate going on where people are being very sincere and quite constructive which I would rather "listen in on" first.

 

[Arngrim]

The irony in all of this is that the problem isn't with the contests -- it's with us (the readers and writers of Literotica.com) and our failure to be grown adults on an adult website.

 

[TxRad]

Two words: Confirmation bias.

When you cherry-pick your examples from only a specific group of "bad people" or the winners, you're always going to find what you're looking for.

How many late entries were never in contention, or never got enough votes to qualify? How many squicky stories finished at the bottom of the pack, rather than rising to the top because all the knee-jerk squick votes were removed?

This is how all these conspiracy theories have to operate, because they fall apart when the big picture comes into play.

I was ready to drop all this crap but... if you insist.

No one is cherry picking anything. Yeah, a lot of late entries never make it anywhere but the ones who are using that method are.

It's not just one thing they are doing but a series of things and it works. Post a long story in a low vote category that it really doesn't belong in. Put a squig factor in the middle to do away with readers or to knee jerk 1 bombs. Enter late to avoid even more votes.

The sweeps do away with the 1 bombs and up jumps the score.

As for making the minimum number of votes that is no problem. Putting votes on a story of any kind is not a problem and you know it.

The whole point was to get the information out so people know what is going on. Stick your head in the sand all you want. Rant and rave about it all you want but it doesn't change the facts.

 

[oggbashan]

The irony in all of this is that the problem isn't with the contests -- it's with us (the readers and writers of Literotica.com) and our failure to be grown adults on an adult website.

The General Board is even worse.
Some, but not all, behave like bored teenagers having an argument because there's nothing else to do.

Once I tried plugging a contest on the General Board. It only took a few posts for the thread to go off-topic to more general abuse of each other.

 

[sr71plt]

Oh, and I never turned off voting on a story. I asked Laurel to not consider it for a winner's spot, should it score highly enough to attain such, which it did.

Your story went on XXX and I commented on it at the time. Presumably, since you seem to have great access to Lit.'s archives, you can dig that out. If I'd thought you weren't taking advantage of the system at the time, you wouldn't have lost me at that point. You did.

 

[TxRad]

The irony in all of this is that the problem isn't with the contests -- it's with us (the readers and writers of Literotica.com) and our failure to be grown adults on an adult website.

The irony of this is you putting it out there as an alt.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

Why hello Arngrim.

I got a cute little anonymous Feedback this weekend "accusing" me of being you lol

How about if you sing and I gargle at the same time?

The irony in all of this is that the problem isn't with the contests -- it's with us (the readers and writers of Literotica.com) and our failure to be grown adults on an adult website.

 

[NotWise]

Thank you, but there is a seriously good debate going on where people are being very sincere and quite constructive which I would rather "listen in on" first.

To further the constructive aspect, try answering three things:

What do we want the contests to be? (I think there is common ground here.)
If the contests aren't already what we want them to be, then why not? (This is tougher.)
If there are specific problems, then what are the practical solutions? (Difficult.)

If we can answer those question in order, then we can give Laurel a proposal. Writing a proposal is the only action that would make this thread constructive. Otherwise I don't know that this discussion has a value beyond what has been argued over ad nauseum before.

 

[Arngrim]

I was ready to drop all this crap but... if you insist.

No one is cherry picking anything. Yeah, a lot of late entries never make it anywhere but the ones who are using that method are.

It's not just one thing they are doing but a series of things and it works. Post a long story in a low vote category that it really doesn't belong in. Put a squig factor in the middle to do away with readers or to knee jerk 1 bombs. Enter late to avoid even more votes.

The sweeps do away with the 1 bombs and up jumps the score.

As for making the minimum number of votes that is no problem. Putting votes on a story of any kind is not a problem and you know it.

The whole point was to get the information out so people know what is going on. Stick your head in the sand all you want. Rant and rave about it all you want but it doesn't change the facts.

How many times must I say it? Correlation does not imply causation.

I do find it funny that you and your partner have no problem pointing fingers and painting bullseyes on people, yet you conveniently leave out the name of a person who used your so called 'formula' to game the system then citing it as fact. You speak like it's justice when it's not your agenda being pursued yet it's hush-hush when it is.

Two things: One, without "showing us the money" your claim has no basis in fact because not all facts are present. And two, even if you supplied the name, you're giving us a single example across a magnitude of variables. Until you can provide multiple accounts of using the same formula in the same environment (virtually impossible with how the contests are structured) you cannot site it as known fact. That's not how statistical analysis works.

It's theory at best and a crapshoot at worst.

 

[RejectReality]

Your story went on XXX and I commented on it at the time. Presumably, since you seem to have great access to Lit.'s archives, you can dig that out. If I'd thought you weren't taking advantage of the system at the time, you wouldn't have lost me at that point. You did.

No, it didn't. Voting is not turned off on that story, or any of my stories, and never has been.

There's no mystery to my "access to the archives". It's called Google.

Important Keywords Pennames site:forum.literotica.com

VBulletin search has always been garbage, and this is an old version of the software. I bypass it for something far more reliable.

Now, here's my post revealing that I asked for my story not be considered to place. http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=48509117&postcount=707

If you made some sort of comment about turning off voting, it didn't happen in this thread. If I'd turned off voting, there would have been no need to ask that the story not be considered.

It never happened.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

i ain't entering 'cause i'm too busy with other crap.

...that is crap besides the crap i put up here on lit.

uhm...

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm posting this as a favor - unsolicited-to TX Rad whose had my back many times.

Let's address some points made by RR and others,

The bickering, complaining of trolling, conspiracies etc..are keeping the contests down.

Bullshit. Very few authors come to the boards let alone the contest thread. So who is seeing any of this that it deters people from entering? Good bad or indifferent, the vast majority of lit authors see none of this. So please spare me the "its ruining it for everyone"

As for contests getting smaller. Back in the 180 entry days chapter stories were allowed. They no longer are. If they were people with ongoing series would add "it was summer, winter, Halloween...to a chapter and have an instant entry.

Also I've been entering for five years and the 98 in this one is one of the better totals I've seen and maybe the best this year because its a fun category. Maybe some people have dropped out because they've gotten bored? Or as TX Rad pointed out a lot of people simply leave. Not driven off, but left. Real life shit, no longer writing of paid market.

As for making them bigger? With no effort to change things by the site it won't happen. Its advertised on the home page. Who enters lit through the homepage? Very few. She has a sticky. How many authors come to the forums? very few. She does post it on twitter, but you have to be following it. The twitter I think is advertised on the home page...again who...etc.

Now as for games/formulas etc...several points.

1-RR himself had quite the nice little winning recipe he had a run of success with. Until people started pointing it out. Then it stopped as did his entering in general for the most part.

2-Scouries, especially when I came here everyone was told right off the bat scouries is the boogeyman. He is responsible for all of lits ills and all by himself fucks with contests.

Yet he never won, ever. Also we're supposed to believe that. So its okay to believe scouries gamed and fucked with the contests, but no one else ever has and any other accusations are groundless. A little inconsistent there? So to refresh. When RR says someone has altered the contests, its okay to listen.

3-last minute. Going back to V-day of last year to Nude day of this year 9 contests, a last minute entry won four times. So the 'it doesn't help' stats should be starting to reflect that it can. But, yes it needs more help than that.

BTW one author has three of those wins. The same author who had four W's in ten years then 3 in a year while only entering contests eligible to win. So that right there is a flag in itself, many long time contest authors here enter regardless of whether they can place or not. Each win was also a case of material that could have gone somewhere else including sticking some obvious incestuous scenarios in the mature category.

Now wrong category? Forget talking about it. How about people decide from themselves? The Nude day winner. Avril's Fool by Buckyduckman. Go look it up and check it out.

Its in novels and novellas. Why? Its an eight page one shot. Hardly a 'novel' or a series. But yes, sometimes if there's lower erotic content or other conditions N/N may work.

But read it(its actually a fun story) it is full of sex. Full of fetish sex. Bucky has a great following in fetish including a monthly winner that amassed over a thousand votes high for fetish.

So seeing as the big benefit of the contest is the extra eyes etc, why would someone take a story that would get insane numbers in the category it fits best in be put into one of the least voted categories on this site? Well to only get 300 votes not 1000. The sweeps benefit shorter stories and if that's not obvious people need to go back and take basic math again.

FWIW the three contest winners had 200 votes....combined. Oh, FWIW part two? The winner contains under age sex.

Which brings me to someone claiming the contests are work for Laurel because she has to screen the stories faster and that puts other stories on the back burner.

Bullshit. The winner this time was 20+ pages. I've had three 20+ page entries and many people enter long ones because they have to be one shots. Does anyone here seriously think Laurel screens these at all? Some of them are posted within a couple hours of submission. Most entrants are previous contestants and many are long time authors. She's giving benefit of the doubt.

Formula. Again I'll bring up the obvious that any author here whose been writing for a fair amount of time knows what works and does not work in categories. What will do well, what will get flamed.

Want a beating? Use femdom, just ask Ogg.

But of course its impossible to believe people can use it the opposite way.

Post a story either not the right category, or right category and put something squicky in it. The reader gets pissed and hands you a bomb. Said bomb will be erased because they gave a knee jerk bomb without reading the whole story. Now you have a vote and many of them that will be erased. Keep your vote total down lower and the sweeps give a nice boost don't they?

But know what? Its all theory until you put it to the test right? How does a scientist prove his theory? He experiments with it.

I'm the author TX Rad mentioned used the formula and won with it on the first try.

My Nude day second place story. The Return of Molly Minx.

It was in incest. Incest hadn't won in close to four years at the time. Why? Well for me way to many votes 1200-1600+ for my prior incest contest stories. The sweeps do nothing for those and once you have so many votes it takes way to many fives to get up to

First...what category is it in? Incest. Wait, there's nothing in the title that says that. No mom or dad or son etc....

Exactly. Incest fans keyword search mom etc...leave it out of the title and less people see it.

 

[TxRad]

No, it didn't. Voting is not turned off on that story, or any of my stories, and never has been.

There's no mystery to my "access to the archives". It's called Google.

Important Keywords Pennames site:forum.literotica.com

VBulletin search has always been garbage, and this is an old version of the software. I bypass it for something far more reliable.

Now, here's my post revealing that I asked for my story not be considered to place. http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=48509117&postcount=707

If you made some sort of comment about turning off voting, it didn't happen in this thread. If I'd turned off voting, there would have been no need to ask that the story not be considered.

It never happened.

He has you confused with someone else. I can't remember his name but he entered the contest several times with voting turned off. One of scouries early victims.

Eta: Dark of the Moon was one of his names.

 

[RejectReality]

Your "proof" that no-talent cheating hacks win contests with formulas is to do it yourself?

How ethical.

I'm the author TX Rad mentioned used the formula and won with it on the first try.

My Nude day second place story. The Return of Molly Minx.

It was in incest. Incest hadn't won in close to four years at the time. Why? Well for me way to many votes 1200-1600+ for my prior incest contest stories. The sweeps do nothing for those and once you have so many votes it takes way to many fives to get up to

First...what category is it in? Incest. Wait, there's nothing in the title that says that. No mom or dad or son etc....

Exactly. Incest fans keyword search mom etc...leave it out of the title and less people see it.

 

[sr71plt]

Oh, and I never turned off voting on a story. I asked Laurel to not consider it for a winner's spot, should it score highly enough to attain such, which it did.

I've also addressed the switching pen names in the past. All my pen names are logged in through different browsers for convenience. Whichever browser I'm using at a given moment determines who you get when I post, which is why you don't see Les very often. I only use Firefox on a very limited number of sites.

Not what I remembered, but even your version of it would be a story that was not being included in the contest but was enjoying the perks of being in the contest.

Not using a single posting name is your problem. Distorting the number of posters taking a position by posting under multiple alts is a forum problem. I think you shouldn't be disingenuous about it for posters without a long history here of who is posting. You evidently don't care.

 

[TxRad]

Your "proof" that no-talent cheating hacks win contests with formulas is to do it yourself?

How ethical.

Ethical? Interesting choice of words.

 

[lovecraft68]

Second post to break up the wall of text and most important.

Formula. Again I'll bring up the obvious that any author here whose been writing for a fair amount of time knows what works and does not work in categories. What will do well, what will get flamed.

Want a beating? Use femdom, just ask Ogg.

But of course its impossible to believe people can use it the opposite way.

Post a story either not the right category, or right category and put something squicky in it. The reader gets pissed and hands you a bomb. Said bomb will be erased because they gave a knee jerk bomb without reading the whole story. Now you have a vote and many of them that will be erased. Keep your vote total down lower and the sweeps give a nice boost don't they?

But know what? Its all theory until you put it to the test right? How does a scientist prove his theory? He experiments with it.

I'm the author TX Rad mentioned used the formula and won with it on the first try.

My Nude day second place story. The Return of Molly Minx.

It was in incest. Incest hadn't won in close to four years at the time. Why? Well for me way to many votes 1200-1600+ for my prior incest contest stories. The sweeps do nothing for those and once you have so many votes it takes way to many fives to get up to a high enough score to place.

So how does one stop an incest story from hitting those totals?

Glad you asked.

First...what category is it in? Incest. Wait, there's nothing in the title that says that. No mom or dad or son etc....

Exactly. Incest fans keyword search mom etc...leave it out of the title and less people see it. The tag line I left out mom as well. I did put son, but mom is searched for more.

Length....29 pages, this was a 107k novel. But length is not always a help. The #1 incest story of all time is 43 pages with an astounding 18k votes.

But what if that 107k incest story had a lot of sex early on, but no incest? What if there was no incest until...80k in? A lot of back clicks and pissed off 'what the fuck" bombs right there and it showed, I had a couple of impressive sweeps during that story.

But I'm a lengthy writer and have a fan base that will read along because they feel I always deliver. So how to deter those readers?

Oh, how about the ultimate no-no in incest? Yup, the first sex scene was an angry semi consensual borderline hate fuck. Mom putting it on her son whether it was how he wanted it or not.

Those one's are adding up now.

But now for the diehard LC fans? The ones that know, somehow someway, I always make it right? The last several thousand words are pure incest romance, oh, yes mom and son come to terms and they are now one happy couple a great HEA meaning those people who hung on for the ride? They are slapping those fives down because I gave them what they always want. Love.

The story at the time of the final sweep had about 350 votes. Not a tiny total, but for incest? Pretty damn low. Why? Because its exactly what I aimed for. If the length didn't intimidate them, the content pissed them off.

Now I left out the last minute trick? Why? well because of the length I had to make sure I got a decent amount of votes-especially the wrong kind-and with all my griping about it, to be honest, I wondered if Laurel would put it through

Category? Well unlike others who use this formula I am not out to put something like incest in the wrong category because there's a difference between ticking off the incest crowd and really making someone mad because they loath incest. Because there was a point I was thinking of dropping it in mature because the first 80k would have fit there perfectly.

What was really funny was after the Nude Day contest where the first and third placed winners each used their particular formula, I pm's TX and told him. "I have this story I wrote a couple months ago and with a little tweaking it will fit the formula and I am going to place. Not let's see, not maybe. I knew I would and I did.

Being I donate the money to animal shelters, I didn't feel bad about taking it, but did feel a little bad for sinking to that level. But it was about vindication (and having five other legit W's to feel good about)

So there you have it. So now people can say I cheated, but...you can only say that if you admit the formula worked....cute, huh? So are the detractors going to own it so they can call me a cheat? Or will I hear it was a brilliant story and I deserved to win? I'll take that too.

Oh, and one more thing. Incest hadn't won in four years. Then I place and two of the three from Summer were incest. I'll refrain from how 'coincidental' that seems.

 

[CyranoJ]

I'm baffled that LC has apparently ruled out the possibility that the story he used the "formula" with might simply have been a good story and won because of that. *shrug* It's where this stuff starts that I check out.

(Oh I had missed the part where LC apparently believes he divined this "formula" from my Nude Day contest win. Well, hey, if someone's willing to go to enough work to extract a "formula" out of letting a short story grow into a novella and barely getting it in at the last minute, more power to them.)

 

[TxRad]

I'm baffled that LC has apparently ruled out the possibility that the story he used the "formula" with might simply have been a good story and won because of that. *shrug* It's where this stuff starts that I check out.

Go read it and find out for yourself.

 

[sr71plt]

Your "proof" that no-talent cheating hacks win contests with formulas is to do it yourself?

That's why I give LC some credence (with a view to self-service perspective) in the how and why of a specific voting block working in the contests (at least at one time--the members of the block who entered this time didn't do all that well in the Halloween Contest). He was an early member of the block himself and was outed on the forum by other known members of the block after an internal power struggle that he lost.

 

[TxRad]

That's why I give LC some credence (with a view to self-service perspective) in the how and why of a specific voting block working in the contests (at least at one time--the members of the block who entered this time didn't do all that well in the Halloween Contest). He was an early member of the block himself and was outed on the forum by other known members of the block after an internal power struggle that he lost.

The group has more or less blown itself up.

It's kind of hard to use a formula when everyone knows what it is and is looking for it.

 

[Arngrim]

How does saying you won using a formula prove anything when you didn't follow your own formula? Nice essay lenth posts of back-patting though.

For the record, I think we should draw attention to who is obviously the most motivated in trying (unsuccessfully) to rig the contests despite preaching the contrary.

 

[sr71plt]

The group has more or less blown itself up.

It's kind of hard to use a formula when everyone knows what it is and is looking for it.

Well, the next time they publish an anthology, I'll have to look to see if they are using the "award-winning Literotica author" phrase in the blurb, as a few of them haven't made the grade yet.

 

[TxRad]

Well, the next time they publish an anthology, I'll have to look to see if they are using the "award-winning Literotica author" phrase in the blurb, as a few of them haven't made the grade yet.

It was on their first one and only one had won at that time. Not much truth in advertising, ya know.

 

[TxRad]

How does saying you won using a formula prove anything when you didn't follow your own formula? Nice essay lenth posts of back-patting though.

For the record, I think we should draw attention to who is obviously the most motivated in trying (unsuccessfully) to rig the contests despite preaching the contrary.

Says the alt.

You want to make moral judgements. Come out and play under your real name.