Seriously...

[twelveoone]

I did not answer the question seriously before, which is probably kinda bad, as the topic is "Seriously..." but I could not name a poet. A single poet. I could not name even, say, ten poets. I could maybe name individual poems, if I could remember them, but that's a different thing.

I do not aspire to (ha ha ha ha) immortality. I just write because it's fun. My poems here are like crossword puzzles with flirting.

I like words. I like to play around with them. If I can craft something that works, even a teeny tiny bit, as "art?" Well, yeah. I'd like be all over that. But, you know, that is hard. I sometimes try, but more often than not, I just wingle. <-- Technical term for slovenly word play and nonsense.

The original question, though, assuming I have got it right, is interesting. I would say that your goal as writer is to learn both what your subject(s) is (are) and to learn how to express it (them). You are learning about what is important/essential to you. So how the hell would someone else enter into that? Anyone else? I'm confused about that.

Case in point, fer me. Take annaswirls. (I'd love to take annaswirls, but that is, of course, banterish non-comment.) I love her poems. Ms. Anna does something very different from me in her writing. She, like, bleeds authenticity and emotion. What her poems are about, I think. Her reaction to things and life and stuff. What, I think, makes her poems good, or at least strongly contributes to it. (She does do that metaphor thing, too, and well.)

But, y'know, that won't work for me. I am not confessional guy. However much I admire and react to that style, were I to try and do it, I would suck. It is just not me.

Trust me. I tried it already in High School, and the reviews were bad. My reviews of my own work were bad. That's just a non-starter.

What I need to learn is how to be more me, but with the technical chops to understand how to do that and communicate to whatever audience may or might find that vaguely interesting at the same time. I don't think the best course is for me to be emulating other Lit people. Or, for that matter, for me to be emulating any of the "Great Poets" (yeah, yeah, I would fucking love to be Auden (well, except for the homosexual thing (whoops, that (fucking) was an inappropriate adjective))), but that is not me either.

Now see? I can write prose that looks like LISP. Kinda, vaguely, maybe relevant, eh? Eh?

Oh, nevermind.

So what exactly are you asking, twelvie? Are there poets here I admire and study? (Yes.) Do I envy some of the poets here? (Yes.) Do I think that thinking about how they do things helps me? (Yes, yes, yes.)

Do I want to Be More Like Them?

Uh, no. Not even you, however much I think you rock. Sorry.

Now, guitar envy's a diffrunt thing. I would trade negotiable securities to be able to play guitar like Eric Clapton. Or, (showing my age) even better, piano like Garrick Ohlsson.

Noper, not what I was asking - last thing in the world I would want to be are the two people I mentioned (conservative, rule-based) - Hell, I'd rather be you.

They are the two people, I would probably listen to most, as far as taking things out.

There have been better critics of my material, Maria2394 who keeps finding things I bury for example, but I know THAT is there, because I put it there. foehn has found stuff maybe I shouldn't, Jim once picked up on a false trail I laid down (technical missuse of word)

As for annaswirls, yeh I'd like to take her too, one of my most favourite poets, but she may have too close a style as does WickedEve.

 

[Tathagata]

Will there be plentiful liquor because we'll both need it.

there's always plentiful liquor even if we don't need it

 

[Tathagata]

Reminds me of a joke. An old dude is sitting at the bar watching the cute chick re-do the chalkboard with the myriad types of exotic beer the bar has to offer. Finally he says, "darlin', wouldn't it be easier to list the ones you don't have?"

namaste
bijou

I gotta write that down so I dont forget it

 

[sophieloves]

if you can bear with the fact i don't really know you guys much yet, or a lot of your styles, i have to say i've read many that blow me away. i don't know about immortality, or anything like that, but there are two poets here whose opinions i rate very highly... and not just because they seem to like what i write but because they aren't afraid to tell me, however pleasantly, what feels wrong to them... these two are CicatrixESP and Black Shanglan. ok, again, i've not written much, but these two seem most in tune with where i'm coming from and seem to steer me on the best course.

there are so many here, though, whose works i admire tremendously, and no doubt simply by reading them they will have some impact on me - not to say i could ever hope to or want to emulate them, but more a sort of better getting at what the heart of poetry is all about.

 

[Tzara]

Noper, not what I was asking - last thing in the world I would want to be are the two people I mentioned (conservative, rule-based) - Hell, I'd rather be you.

They are the two people, I would probably listen to most, as far as taking things out.

There have been better critics of my material, Maria2394 who keeps finding things I bury for example, but I know THAT is there, because I put it there. foehn has found stuff maybe I shouldn't, Jim once picked up on a false trail I laid down (technical missuse of word)

As for annaswirls, yeh I'd like to take her too, one of my most favourite poets, but she may have too close a style as does WickedEve.

Oh, OK, I guess. Who I would most listen to. Besides myself, I assume.

Again, I don't think I could single anybody in particular out. I think I pay more attention to the comment than to who is making it. I think I do—I could be wrong, of course. And some people are more likely to make useful comments than others, so that enters into it as well.

Are you saying that if you get comments on a particular strophe from, say, jthserra, Angeline, and Senna Jawa, that you would pay more attention to Jim's comment, regardless of what the comment is?

That doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe I still don't get what you're driving at.

Sometimes the most useful comments I get are ones that, in and of themselves, are not useful but, because of their nature, indicate that something I was trying to do didn't work at all, at least for the person making the comment. They don't help tell me what to do, but they sure as hell tell me I need to so something (like, maybe, start over).

 

[Angeline]

Oh, OK, I guess. Who I would most listen to. Besides myself, I assume.

Again, I don't think I could single anybody in particular out. I think I pay more attention to the comment than to who is making it. I think I do—I could be wrong, of course. And some people are more likely to make useful comments than others, so that enters into it as well.

Are you saying that if you get comments on a particular strophe from, say, jthserra, Angeline, and Senna Jawa, that you would pay more attention to Jim's comment, regardless of what the comment is?

That doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe I still don't get what you're driving at.

Sometimes the most useful comments I get are ones that, in and of themselves, are not useful but, because of their nature, indicate that something I was trying to do didn't work at all, at least for the person making the comment. They don't help tell me what to do, but they sure as hell tell me I need to so something (like, maybe, start over).

The most critical feedback I get always helps the most. That's why I always appreciated what Senna Jawa would tell me.

Also, I'm not aiming for immortality. If I can get through the day, I'm satisfied.

 

[FifthFlower]

The question is lame. No one here will give you "immortality".

However, I read this forum for inspiration and ideas to use in poetry, not prose. That often comes from people posting challenges or from the poetry that people write in threads. Occasionally something positive comes from the prose.

Those who inspire me the most, at the moment are templeminded, unbridled_passion, sophieloves and UnderYourSpell, but there have been many others.

 

[twelveoone]

The question is lame. No one here will give you "immortality".

However, I read this forum for inspiration and ideas to use in poetry, not prose. That often comes from people posting challenges or from the poetry that people write in threads. Occasionally something positive comes from the prose.

Those who inspire me the most, at the moment are templeminded, unbridled_passion, sophieloves and UnderYourSpell, but there have been many others.

I don't give a rat's ass about "inspiration", shit, a good cheap book on poetry should be able to do that.
What I meant by "immortality" is the attempt to write something to survive yourself, or in other words "perfecting the craft", or to put it in other terms, why are you here, to enthuse, amuse, confuse, or anything else that may rhyme with Muse. Or to just perform some kind of self-indulgent wankery to let the world know you exist, even if the don't care very much.
How is that for a "lame" response, to another "lame" response?

 

[normal jean]

what a situation to consider. The only immortality I even dare to hope for is to be remembered after my death, just long enough to be laid to rest.

As for which poet I would choose? That is impossible. I could never choose one. I wanted to immedietly shout out, Annaswirls, or Wicked Eve. And then thoughts such as 1201 and Tess jumped in. Then the list grew longer and longer.


I agree with T on why he would choose Anna. So spontaneous, yet contained. emotional in a strong feminine controlled way. I always learn from her.

Wicked Eve has this ability to let out her darker thoughts in a semi serious humorous way, just enough to make me think her dirty deeds could possibly be done

I honestly ache sometimes that I can't do form. When I read an Angeline sonnet or a Fool sestina, I just want to be someone else that "gets" it. But I'm not, so I just read them and admire.

1201- well,he is a devious puzzzle writing poet. I would choose to be like him in a hundred different ways. He reminds me of TSE and you don't get much better than that.

Then, I would say, Tess and Tath, for the way they bring the simple joys of life and along with that, serenity and acceptance. I have a hard time letting go of stupid things and I always seem to learn from their poetry, as well.

And Carrie and Denis Hale and Neo and SJ and manipulatrix and I could never choose just one. I feel undeservedly blessed to be able to have learned from you guys. Thanks

 

[twelveoone]

Oh, OK, I guess. Who I would most listen to. Besides myself, I assume.

Again, I don't think I could single anybody in particular out. I think I pay more attention to the comment than to who is making it. I think I do—I could be wrong, of course. And some people are more likely to make useful comments than others, so that enters into it as well.

Are you saying that if you get comments on a particular strophe from, say, jthserra, Angeline, and Senna Jawa, that you would pay more attention to Jim's comment, regardless of what the comment is?

That doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe I still don't get what you're driving at.

Sometimes the most useful comments I get are ones that, in and of themselves, are not useful but, because of their nature, indicate that something I was trying to do didn't work at all, at least for the person making the comment. They don't help tell me what to do, but they sure as hell tell me I need to so something (like, maybe, start over).

All this is admirable and very democratic, T-guy. And a tough question for me to answer, since two of the three I had very little to do with, and both are very astute, but yes, in my case if I had to pick brains it would be either jthserra, or foehn, because they are serious with a sense of fun, this statement of yours in bold, foehn did that to me, on an otherwise well received poem. For me, as I said as a counterbalance, those two more than others. I learned more about the "value" of words from either Tarablackwood22 or annaswirls, but that is a direction I'm already heading in.
So if I'm looking for somebody that says "this is a dumb idea" or this is a "dumb thing to do" those are the two. Although I would give serious consideration to anything Senna Jawa says (and have) but probably do the opposite, or take it to the absurd conclusion.
I've already done that with Jim, BTW, and gotten away with it. Jim did this explanation (and needed) on point-of-view, so I wrote "TRANSCRIPT" (future of poetry, page 80) in your copy of Barking Dogs, tell me T-guy, about the POV.

For me, those two, as a counterbalance. For you Tzara, put your ass on the line, who? For what?

 

[twelveoone]

what a situation to consider. The only immortality I even dare to hope for is to be remembered after my death, just long enough to be laid to rest.

As for which poet I would choose? That is impossible. I could never choose one. I wanted to immedietly shout out, Annaswirls, or Wicked Eve. And then thoughts such as 1201 and Tess jumped in. Then the list grew longer and longer.


I agree with T on why he would choose Anna. So spontaneous, yet contained. emotional in a strong feminine controlled way. I always learn from her.

Wicked Eve has this ability to let out her darker thoughts in a semi serious humorous way, just enough to make me think her dirty deeds could possibly be done

I honestly ache sometimes that I can't do form. When I read an Angeline sonnet or a Fool sestina, I just want to be someone else that "gets" it. But I'm not, so I just read them and admire.

1201- well,he is a devious puzzzle writing poet. I would choose to be like him in a hundred different ways. He reminds me of TSE and you don't get much better than that.

Then, I would say, Tess and Tath, for the way they bring the simple joys of life and along with that, serenity and acceptance. I have a hard time letting go of stupid things and I always seem to learn from their poetry, as well.

And Carrie and Denis Hale and Neo and SJ and manipulatrix and I could never choose just one. I feel undeservedly blessed to be able to have learned from you guys. Thanks

two zz's in puzzle, AND I'm trying to get away from TSE. I want to write something simple like Baudelaire, "flowers of naughtiness"
laughs
more like "weeds of truculence" in my case.
BTW, as I said, you have humbled me with some of your poems.

 

[normal jean]

two zz's in puzzle, AND I'm trying to get away from TSE. I want to write something simple like Baudelaire, "flowers of naughtiness"
laughs
more like "weeds of truculence" in my case.
BTW, as I said, you have humbled me with some of your poems.

do you know, that when I read your poetry, I automatically look for the hidden meanings? Because, they are always there, even if you did not mean them to be. You are a very deep person and an intriguing one at that.

I am saddened that you would want to "get away" from TSE, someone who it seems, has influenced yo so much. You are only just beginning, fellow poet, as each of us are.

I am sorry I didn't run spell check, and the day you don't correct my spellings, I will check for my own pulse. Thank you for keeping me honest and I do realize I need to be more diligent about every word I type.

I want to say, "I love you" because I do certainly love you as a friend and a mentor. In the way you have been for me when I was at some of my lowest points. You understood that "taking up space" was about more than old flowers.

thank you for this.

 

[Tzara]

All this is admirable and very democratic, T-guy. And a tough question for me to answer, since two of the three I had very little to do with, and both are very astute, but yes, in my case if I had to pick brains it would be either jthserra, or foehn, because they are serious with a sense of fun, this statement of yours in bold, foehn did that to me, on an otherwise well received poem. For me, as I said as a counterbalance, those two more than others. I learned more about the "value" of words from either Tarablackwood22 or annaswirls, but that is a direction I'm already heading in.
So if I'm looking for somebody that says "this is a dumb idea" or this is a "dumb thing to do" those are the two. Although I would give serious consideration to anything Senna Jawa says (and have) but probably do the opposite, or take it to the absurd conclusion.
I've already done that with Jim, BTW, and gotten away with it. Jim did this explanation (and needed) on point-of-view, so I wrote "TRANSCRIPT" (future of poetry, page 80) in your copy of Barking Dogs, tell me T-guy, about the POV.

For me, those two, as a counterbalance. For you Tzara, put your ass on the line, who? For what?

OK, this changes my perception of what you are asking once again to: Who would you particularly solicit comment from?

That implies, of course, that there is (are) one particular (a limited number) person (of persons) whose comments generally are preferred. Perhaps, as you imply, because they have a different approach to writing.

While that doesn't seem quite as conceptually off-base as how I was interpreting your earlier statements, it still seems short-sighted. If I was going to ask a particular person for advice or critique, which person that might be would depend upon the concern I had about the poem.

Let me use what I consider to be an obvious example. Say I write something generally about about painting and art. I might want to have bogusbrig look it over to make sure I'm using the terms (e.g., scumbled or impasto or something) correctly. Or to check that I am approaching the subject the way an artist might approach it, think about it. On the other hand, if I was working on a mathematics metaphor, I would be much more interested in what Senna Jawa thought about it than bb.

Same with more "poetic" kinds of concerns. If I was concerned about how something worked emotionally, I might ask any of a number of poets who do that way better than me. Precision of language and nuance? Again, any of a group of several people, some of whom would be different from the previous group.

I don't think there is any one person (or fixed set of two or three people) about whom I would say "these are the people whose comments I would value above others."

Perhaps I am still misinterpreting you, but I think that concept is kind of silly.

 

[twelveoone]

OK, this changes my perception of what you are asking once again to: Who would you particularly solicit comment from?

That implies, of course, that there is (are) one particular (a limited number) person (of persons) whose comments generally are preferred. Perhaps, as you imply, because they have a different approach to writing.

While that doesn't seem quite as conceptually off-base as how I was interpreting your earlier statements, it still seems short-sighted. If I was going to ask a particular person for advice or critique, which person that might be would depend upon the concern I had about the poem.

Let me use what I consider to be an obvious example. Say I write something generally about about painting and art. I might want to have bogusbrig look it over to make sure I'm using the terms (e.g., scumbled or impasto or something) correctly. Or to check that I am approaching the subject the way an artist might approach it, think about it. On the other hand, if I was working on a mathematics metaphor, I would be much more interested in what Senna Jawa thought about it than bb.

Same with more "poetic" kinds of concerns. If I was concerned about how something worked emotionally, I might ask any of a number of poets who do that way better than me. Precision of language and nuance? Again, any of a group of several people, some of whom would be different from the previous group.

I don't think there is any one person (or fixed set of two or three people) about whom I would say "these are the people whose comments I would value above others."

Perhaps I am still misinterpreting you, but I think that concept is kind of silly.

Oh, silly me.
These are the two that would concern me the most. They are linear thinkers with a sense of humour (in their writing), rare enough, with fine eyes for detail, constuction, so I better have a damn good reason for doing what I'm doing. I've found over the years, I defer to their judgement the most. (I better have a good reason for what I doing, and execute well). Funny you mention, Bogusbrig, both he and Tath, have an uncanny knack for hitting the "sore spots" - words I agonised over. But since the agony is over, I live or die by my choice. But, both employ similar tactics in writing to me.
I am a contrarian. I'll do what everybody says you shouldn't. They would be my tests. Certain of yours do the same thing, nes pa?

As far as "value", if anybody really likes mine, that is the value (to both of us). Certain people are not going to like.

So it is not a value thing, not a mentor thing, not an editing thing (although I could use that, sloppy and careless that I am), a test thing for me.

Just wondering what (if anything) anybody else thought. Mostly pleasant surprises.

I suppose if I was looking for refeynmant on either my knuckleball or "Ephesus pitch" I would come to you.

 

[twelveoone]

he and I have continued talking, every so often. I shoot him emails and he replies in a sort of laughing, "Not only have I been to prison, I've lived a helluva lot longer than you" gentle sort of advisory tone that I find palatable - I like my condescension tongue in cheek, and that's how he gives it to me.

Stellar dude, good poet, etc.

Excellent choice, great poet. Certainly one of the best that came though here. Miss him, give my regards also.

 

[twelveoone]

Hard to say because there are many people here whose advice has really helped me grow as a writer. smithpeter and Senna Jawa both got me to think about writing outside my comfort zone, but I guess I'd say Lauren Hynde or darkmaas, both of whom really understand my poetry and push me.

Thank you, for this answer.

 

[twelveoone]

Fing is, I have no ambition to find immortality through writing.

I have the ambition to use writing as one of many means to find out things about language. And then I'll tell people what I found out (and maybe write about it) and become immortal.

But hockay, whose brains would I pick to become the best poet I can be?

I have two candidates, for entirely different reasons.

Lauren, to learn the precise control she exerts over her words, her style, her contextual framework for each and every poem. Something that I, to say the least, lack.

Vampiredust, for his uncanny ability to consistently find a fresh topos, an unexploreed perspective from which to view the world around him. His output in the passion thread and other places here is not always polished and presented in an optimal way, but the ideas are always of that kind that makes me go "Huh. Wow. Interresting. I didn't know you could see it that way, but now that I have, it makes perfect sense." That, is a poet's eye.

Excellent, if I may impose: precise control she exerts over her words could you explain this, further? What does she do that you feel you lack?

So far those that answered, go for somebody that does something right that they themselves feel they have problems with. Certainly a very encourging sign.

Ange to pushed outside her comfort zone.
which may be similar to (but not quite)
sophieloves who seems to see CicatrixESP and Black Shanglan as perhaps being further along in a path already chosen.
Maybe the same for Tathagata and DeepAsleep
Correct me if I'm wrong

But your answer Liar, seems at first glance to be like mine, a 180 degree turn around.

Precise vs polysemic (you've used that term)
a paradox?
I'm interested.

 

[Angeline]

Excellent, if I may impose: precise control she exerts over her words could you explain this, further? What does she do that you feel you lack?

So far those that answered, go for somebody that does something right that they themselves feel they have problems with. Certainly a very encourging sign.

Ange to pushed outside her comfort zone.
which may be similar to (but not quite)
sophieloves who seems to see CicatrixESP and Black Shanglan as perhaps being further along in a path already chosen.
Maybe the same for Tathagata and DeepAsleep
Correct me if I'm wrong

But your answer Liar, seems at first glance to be like mine, a 180 degree turn around.

Precise vs polysemic (you've used that term)
a paradox?
I'm interested.

If I may, 1201, there is another piece of this puzzle that fascinates me. Liar and Lauren Hynde are both poets who I think exercise precise control over their diction (though Liar may disagree). I also think that of Icingsugar and Linbido, both fine poets whom some of the newer folk here should consider exploring.

What these four poets share is that none of them write poems here in their native language (Lauren's is Portuguese, Liar's and Icingsugar's is Swedish, Linbido's is--I believe--Norwegian). How does that come into play? Each of them is facile with language in their poems in ways I see in few writers here, and granted each is fluent in English. Still, the fact that they are all so good and have that in common has always fascinated me.

 

[twelveoone]

I am a little confused about the expression precise control if I use something that is ambigious in one sense it is not precise and yet that is precisely why I would use it.

i.e content

 

[Angeline]

I am a little confused about the expression precise control if I use something that is ambigious in one sense it is not precise and yet that is precisely why I would use it.

i.e content

I interpret it as meaning the choice of the exactly right word or words intended to convey whatever one wishes to convey. Writing anything is--at least to me--a struggle to find the perfect words to express what I want to say. If I don't find them, well, I still may be communicating clearly, maybe even writing artfully, but to absolutely nail it for me is to find words for which there are no better substitutes. And they may, indeed, be words that introduce ambiguity, but it is ambiguity I have chosen to interject into the writing, as opposed to lack of focus.

 

[eagleyez]

I enjoy the hell out of following this forum,
Albeit more sporadic at times than others.
Ange gives a headsup when she reads something
Amusing and I go "thats cool. He/she is a nice person."

And we agree and walk on, about a day,
Me pacing around thinking about drop-D, looking for viable slide,
Peeking thru the blinds
To see the crystal snow against a huge battleship sky,
To soon to be this cold, I think.

She headphones jazz, taps and dances.
Sun falls slowly in her eyes, to ridge of treetops,
Shining the evening mojo, dig it.
Stretch to the sun, then the moon races in,
3/4 full like an earing on its side hanging in the west.

 

[twelveoone]

I interpret it as meaning the choice of the exactly right word or words intended to convey whatever one wishes to convey. Writing anything is--at least to me--a struggle to find the perfect words to express what I want to say. If I don't find them, well, I still may be communicating clearly, maybe even writing artfully, but to absolutely nail it for me is to find words for which there are no better substitutes. And they may, indeed, be words that introduce ambiguity, but it is ambiguity I have chosen to interject into the writing, as opposed to lack of focus.

Precisely. Empson, my dear, Empson.

Do you not think, I do that?
Do you not think I left the punctuation out deliberately

Well what does it convey? Something
Well what does it communicate?
Maybe nothing. Maybe different things.

Two different words. Convey and communicate.

I would like to hear what Liar has to say, since he said it.

 

[bogusbrig]

I always think if one wants to stand a chance of being remembered one has to aim very high or aim very low, being just good is not good enough as there is a lot of good poetry out there. One needs to be different and that means taking the chance on failing and being ridiculed. Orthodoxy is for the orthodox, its a safe haven, its where you know there are like minded people who will support your efforts because you give them confirmation and they will give you similar conformation. How you find a distinctive voice is another matter. I'm not sure being true to ones self is an answer to that, we learn our voices through education and experience so it is learnt and means it can be unlearnt. Myself, I like to experiment and to hell with whether the work is seen as good or not, experimenting just keeps me interested.

Particular poems by 1201, Tzara, Wicked etc. still rattle in my head long after I have read them. Whether they are critically good poems or not just seems irrelevent, they stay with me and that's how I measure them.

 

[Tzara]

I am a contrarian. I'll do what everybody says you shouldn't. They would be my tests. Certain of yours do the same thing, nes pa?

The simplest way to get me to write something is to say "never do this." Makes me go Why?

I suppose if I was looking for refeynmant on either my knuckleball or "Ephesus pitch" I would come to you.

My middle name is Paul, but given that I am agnostic, it's kind of a toss-up whether I could advise you on that pitch or not.



If I have to name names, it would be Eve and Fly, because they have whacked me pretty hard upside the head when I was being stupid. Especially stupid. I'm stupid all the time, of course, but that is semi-intentional.

Other poets might make the same points, but they're too nice about it.

 

[twelveoone]

The simplest way to get me to write something is to say "never do this." Makes me go Why?
My middle name is Paul, but given that I am agnostic, it's kind of a toss-up whether I could advise you on that pitch or not.



If I have to name names, it would be Eve and Fly, because they have whacked me pretty hard upside the head when I was being stupid. Especially stupid. I'm stupid all the time, of course, but that is semi-intentional.

Other poets might make the same points, but they're too nice about it.

Change-up!
ROFL
Can I tell you I love you?
In a totally non-Auden sort of way.

psst, did I ever mention I was jealous of you, ah, and Bogusbrig?