Shouldn't volunteer editors know how to write?

[lovecraft68]

Jeez so much for Pilot having me on ignore again. Its so much quieter when he does. I can post an opinion and no one else turns it into a spat.

My point is this is a free site. We are all on this site, so equal footing all the way around.

I roll my eyes at authors who tout things they have done in r/l just as I roll my eyes when I go to the GB and everyone is boasting about all their vast knowledge of, well, of everything.

None of that matters here.

I will also stick to my point that to the people who make remarks such as Lit readers don't know good writing from bad, lit writers don't know good editing from bad, editors don't know good writers from bad etc... are being nothing short of insulting.

Thousands upon thousands of readers here and no one is qualified to say a story is well written?

My question to people that feel that way is "Why are you here then?" if the site and its populace, writers, editors, readers, are so far beneath those people's standards, why be here at all?

My theory is simply nothing better to do and non free speech chat rooms will throw them off. That's why the GB is big here, its full of people who have been banned from other chat rooms.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Interesting. If I didn't know any better, I might think you and Pilot were related. BTW, interesting story on your other thread about taking care of business and getting rid of the body.

Its a family tale a cousin wrote up for posterity. She was a child when it occurred, and recalled the panic and tumult the murder caused. But the black woman was kin, and the men did the right thing by her, killing her killer. The newspaper article said the dead man was a cattle rustler. So I'll see if I cant depict it better.

 

[_Lynn_]

Before this thread gets worse, I'll remind everyone to limit the posts to the topic of editing. Do not include personal arguments or attacks.


The Editor’s Forum is for authors and editors to discuss issues related to editing stories. People are forgetting this. It's not a place for personal arguments, attacks, or discussions not related to editing stories.

 

[lovecraft68]

With due respect, I am not attacking anyone, although as usual they will perceive it that way.

My statement is a blanket statement. There are a lot of people her who somehow feel lit is "less than" when it comes to quality of writing, editing, and readership."

That is not just an arrogant way of thinking, but inaccurate, there are some very good authors and editors here, they just have to be found and that is not always needed.

As for the readership? These are the people many of us will hope may buy some of our paid work, because they found us here. To state they aren't discerning and to pretty much insult them is not a smart move in addition to just being an arrogant remark, which again leads to if lit sucks why write here?

 

[_Lynn_]

With due respect, I am not attacking anyone, although as usual they will perceive it that way.

My statement is a blanket statement. There are a lot of people her who somehow feel lit is "less than" when it comes to quality of writing, editing, and readership."

That is not just an arrogant way of thinking, but inaccurate, there are some very good authors and editors here, they just have to be found and that is not always needed.

As for the readership? These are the people many of us will hope may buy some of our paid work, because they found us here. To state they aren't discerning and to pretty much insult them is not a smart move in addition to just being an arrogant remark, which again leads to if lit sucks why write here?

Interesting though, that you replied when I didn't name anyone or quote a specific post.

 

[sr71plt]

I stand by what I think are important points to establish on an editorial forum in response to suppositions made.

 

[LadyVer]

Its a family tale a cousin wrote up for posterity. She was a child when it occurred, and recalled the panic and tumult the murder caused. But the black woman was kin, and the men did the right thing by her, killing her killer. The newspaper article said the dead man was a cattle rustler. So I'll see if I cant depict it better.

I look forward to reading more about it. The ghost piece was well-edited, btw.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Aren't we getting a bit confused here about the idea of "editor". You surely need two; one as literary editor to lick your story into a tight shape (some say beta reader but I don't really agree) and another, copy editor (proof reader), to correct your grammar/punctuation.

I read a lot of stories here that have great grammar/punctuation but lose me on woolly, dreary verbiage. Also, the reverse, where great stories are let down by poor copy editing.

The two skills are often seldom found together, understandably as one is rather mechanical and detailed and the other more artistic.

Could we split the "Available Editors" list between 'copy 'and 'literary' editors?

 

[JonB1969]

I was checking out the volunteer editors section and I came across an editor who had numerous grammatical and spelling errors in his description of himself. I am not a grammar nazi and, by no means, is my writing perfect but, come on, shouldn't an editor at least meet a certain minimum standard? The funniest thing is that he thinks he is a master.

"I will provide perfect english to many articles as I believe myself to be a master of the written word."

By the way, he uses the word "English" several times and never capitalizes it.

Unfortunately the key word here is "volunteer."

Logically, yes, one would think that someone who is editing your story would know what the hell they are doing. But on the website where you sign up to be a volunteer editor it only asks what stories you like to read and what have you. It doesn't ask if you can read and write in English. It doesn't have any quizzes or tests to establish your level of fluency.

So the best way, the only way to weed out the bad ones is by word of mouth, so to speak. If you have a bad time with an editor, or you just have a feeling, or worse, judging by his/her work, that they don't know what they are doing, post it here on the board.

Neither Manu nor Laurel screen volunteer editors. So spread the word.

Hope this helps.

 

[lovecraft68]

Unfortunately the key word here is "volunteer."

Logically, yes, one would think that someone who is editing your story would know what the hell they are doing. But on the website where you sign up to be a volunteer editor it only asks what stories you like to read and what have you. It doesn't ask if you can read and write in English. It doesn't have any quizzes or tests to establish your level of fluency.

So the best way, the only way to weed out the bad ones is by word of mouth, so to speak. If you have a bad time with an editor, or you just have a feeling, or worse, judging by his/her work, that they don't know what they are doing, post it here on the board.

Neither Manu nor Laurel screen volunteer editors. So spread the word.

Hope this helps.

I'm on the fence about part of your post. My gut reaction is to agree that if someone has a bad incident with an editor they should post the name as a warning.

But....

The we could get into spite. Maybe an editor turns someone down as they have no time, then someone posts "They don;t know what they are doing" out of spite.

That sucks, but I have no doubt it would happen here.

besides even the "good" editors here can something come up and they never get back to someone.

I learned that as well, but never said anything about it.

 

[Linda62953]

Missing something

Maybe I am missing something here, but do the writers not re-read their work after getting it back from an editor and before submitting it to the site for publication? I would hope, especially if I sent a story to an editor I am unfamiliar with, that I would read my returned manuscript/story before sending it in, just to make sure they didn't significantly change it or that they actually did proofread it. Like I said, am I missing something in the process here?

 

[LadyVer]

Maybe I am missing something here, but do the writers not re-read their work after getting it back from an editor and before submitting it to the site for publication? I would hope, especially if I sent a story to an editor I am unfamiliar with, that I would read my returned manuscript/story before sending it in, just to make sure they didn't significantly change it or that they actually did proofread it. Like I said, am I missing something in the process here?

You're not missing anything. By the time some writers submit their stories, they're either so sick of their own stories or don't want to spend the time reading the edited version or using Track Changes. Then they can blame the editor.

Note: I said some writers, not all.

 

[sr71plt]

They'd have to read mine, because I return it in the tracking change program of Word and they have to do the cleanup. The story would be rejected by Lit. if the author just submitted the edited version.

Real editors down just willy-nilly change anything. They mark what the change should be without destroying the original so that the author can decide which to go with. And then the corrections and any necessary rewrite is up to the author.

 

[LadyVer]

They'd have to read mine, because I return it in the tracking change program of Word and they have to do the cleanup. The story would be rejected by Lit. if the author just submitted the edited version.

Real editors down just willy-nilly change anything. They mark what the change should be without destroying the original so that the author can decide which to go with. And then the corrections and any necessary rewrite is up to the author.

This is what works for me:

If I can't figure out what the author is trying to say, whether he/she's left out a word or the sentence just doesn't make sense, I tell them in a TC comment.

If I can interpret what the author is trying to say and the sentence structure isn't good, I make suggestions in a comment.

I had a case where the author hated TC and told me that I could only make so many edits on each page. I don't edit this way and told the author he needed to find another editor.

 

[battleaxe_babe]

Personally I judge an editor by the first contact I make with him/her, which could be wrong, but it hasn't been so far.
If I contact an editor about one of my stories I expect a return like

Greetings,

grammatically correct text,

form of salutation,

signature.

which is the way to write a normal email.

If the editor comes back to me with

yeah sure will edit send it to me

or

hi wassup, Im free send your work

I will most probabily not send my manuscript. I did once, thinking that early judgement was wrong, but instead I was wrong to not judge!
Another matter is politeness. Someone once wrote back to me with a decent message, however it started with something like

I can edit for you but don't send your story if your ego can be easily bruised

For a first contact this sounds aggressive. This guy may be a great editor for what I know, or he can be a great asshole that doesn't allow for a normal exchange of opinions over the edits. With a choice of a few promising editors to send my story to, I decided to not test the potentially asshole/potentially great (should I say half empty-half full?) guy and I picked someone else.

 

[Joscelyn2tg]

Originally Posted by LadyVer: I've saved a few lives myself. We all have different roads. Some roads are busier than others, which to me, doesn't mean much.

Originally Posted by JAMESBJOHNSON: You have a complex way of saying nothing at all.

Ha ha!! After looking at this I decided it needed saying... Best definition of why we are here on Lit... EVER!!

 

[sr71plt]

Personally I judge an editor by the first contact I make with him/her, which could be wrong, but it hasn't been so far.
If I contact an editor about one of my stories I expect a return like



which is the way to write a normal email.

If the editor comes back to me with or I will most probabily not send my manuscript. I did once, thinking that early judgement was wrong, but instead I was wrong to not judge!
Another matter is politeness. Someone once wrote back to me with a decent message, however it started with something like
For a first contact this sounds aggressive. This guy may be a great editor for what I know, or he can be a great asshole that doesn't allow for a normal exchange of opinions over the edits. With a choice of a few promising editors to send my story to, I decided to not test the potentially asshole/potentially great (should I say half empty-half full?) guy and I picked someone else.

Volunteer editing here is an informal arrangement. If you get a stilted business letter back, you probably should be thinking the editor is too anal retentive. The response should be grammatically correct, though, and, yes, polite. And it should come in a timely manner. The most often cited problems here are nonresponse or slow response. I wouldn't work with that--even as editor to writer.

 

[lovecraft68]

They'd have to read mine, because I return it in the tracking change program of Word and they have to do the cleanup. The story would be rejected by Lit. if the author just submitted the edited version.

Real editors down just willy-nilly change anything. They mark what the change should be without destroying the original so that the author can decide which to go with. And then the corrections and any necessary rewrite is up to the author.

But I believe there is a way to "reject all changes" with one click. If not I am pretty sure you can see the doc without the changes.

The point there though is why would someone ask for the help if they don't want to use it?

For me, I've accepted pretty much all changes they give me, grammar wise. If it comes to a little rewording sometimes I accept it, occasionally I leave my original

 

[PennLady]

But I believe there is a way to "reject all changes" with one click. If not I am pretty sure you can see the doc without the changes.

The point there though is why would someone ask for the help if they don't want to use it?

For me, I've accepted pretty much all changes they give me, grammar wise. If it comes to a little rewording sometimes I accept it, occasionally I leave my original

To your second question -- I think some people just want to hear that their story is good, just needs a few little things, but then when it needs more than that, or you find a plot problem, well then you're a terrible, picky editor.

 

[rwsteward]

I've been lurking in the dark following this thread. There are many valid points.

Of the thirteen stories I've written here on LIT, all have been edited by a volunteer editor.

Of those stories, perhaps four or so, I've received a comment that went more or less like this:

"Nice story. Good plot and good pacing, but you need to get an editor."

So, the hours I spent back and forth with the so called editor didn't know as much as i knew.

I understand the concept of volunteer and I got what I paid for.

 

[LadyVer]

I've been lurking in the dark following this thread. There are many valid points.

Of the thirteen stories I've written here on LIT, all have been edited by a volunteer editor.

Of those stories, perhaps four or so, I've received a comment that went more or less like this:

"Nice story. Good plot and good pacing, but you need to get an editor."

So, the hours I spent back and forth with the so called editor didn't know as much as i knew.

I understand the concept of volunteer and I got what I paid for.

Not necessarily. There are some readers who will comment that a writer needs an editor no matter how well the story was edited.

Or, a writer will make additions to his/her story after getting it back from the editor, and then submit it, believing that he/she made the story even better, that no more editing is needed.

Also, editors can't catch everything and writers sometimes don't accept good editing changes in Track Changes.

Finally, there are some stories that need more help than an editor can give. Maybe the author needs to revise the story. Editors can only do so much.

Some editors give an author what they paid for on Lit, and some give more. It really depends on the editor and the author working together to make the story better.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I think the only requirement for being a volunteer editor is to sign up.

As a superb professional, you could take a more helpful stance to what is a real problem.

 

[PennLady]

As a superb professional, you could take a more helpful stance to what is a real problem.

But he's correct. If you want to be a VE, just sign up. No one questions your experience or lack thereof.

And what "stance" is there for any of us to take? If you want the editors' program to only have people with credentials, you'll have to take it up with Laurel and Manu and I have a feeling that won't go to far with other things that need doing on the site.

I gather this was started as a way to put people in touch with each other for help and it's grown a bit out of control. I'm sure we can all deal with it.

 

[Linda62953]

I think I read that story that was proofread by the person you mentioned. He lied down in the hay with someone - was written several times - That one is difficult and I can see where someone might miss it. I like the "then" and "than" ones or "are and "our". People either don't pronounce their words correctly or don't know the difference. Same as Their,there,and they're - There is a difference between the spelling and their meanings. I can understand if a writer thinks faster than he writes, but if they have used a proofreader or editor, they need to keep looking.

 

[Linda62953]

I had to laugh at these. I loved the responses to your emails. I am not big on the greetings, but I answer back and tell you what I can do and what to expect. If that is ok with you then send the story. When I edit, suggest and fix whatever, I highlight areas I think you need to look at again and put in a highlighted area next to it with my questions or suggestions and then explain in the return email so you know my method to my madness. Has worked well so far and have not had any complaints. I only fix things like wrong words, spelling, commas, quotation marks, etc...