sigsauerprinces
just a shot away from you
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Kajira Callista said:
yes, it totally make sense
SMACK--a concept, a gathering. Welcome.
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yes, it totally make sense
catalina_francisco
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The beauty of a good story is that everyone takes out of it what they want and enjoy, it can mean different things to different people.
Francisco
Francisco
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Can I just say how bizarre it is to have my motivations analyzed all around me? 
I agree with the points everyone has made. I'm not horny all the times I get fucked, and so since I WAS, I really intended to enjoy myself that time. (BTW, sigsauerprincess, very seldom do I orgasm from sex and that is always with a vibrator, so it wasn't even a distant hope at that time. My satisfaction comes elseways.) He was perfectly aware of that, aware of my desire, and it made it all the sweeter for him to deny me fulfillment of that, as you say, Francisco. There definitely was the aspect of physical unrequitement. The emotional was what closed the deal and left me shaking, like ssp points out. Either form of cruelty would have sufficed, but T does like to kick me when I'm down.
I agree with the points everyone has made. I'm not horny all the times I get fucked, and so since I WAS, I really intended to enjoy myself that time. (BTW, sigsauerprincess, very seldom do I orgasm from sex and that is always with a vibrator, so it wasn't even a distant hope at that time. My satisfaction comes elseways.) He was perfectly aware of that, aware of my desire, and it made it all the sweeter for him to deny me fulfillment of that, as you say, Francisco. There definitely was the aspect of physical unrequitement. The emotional was what closed the deal and left me shaking, like ssp points out. Either form of cruelty would have sufficed, but T does like to kick me when I'm down.
Pure
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Books, a Heads Up.
{from time to time notices of books or movies that seem to the den of SMACK}
My Not So Secret Life, by Laura Miller {reviewer}
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/08/books/review/08MILLERT.html
[start]
Brad Land's new memoir, ''Goat,'' recounts in spare, numbed sentences how he was brutalized in a violent robbery and later subjected himself to similar degradations during a fraternity hazing. Like ''Blackbird,''[by Lauck] ''Goat'' is a creepy page turner, offering itself up as a raw, bleeding slab of experience, unseasoned by later judgments. But the immediacy of both is an illusion; the stunned, inarticulate narrator of ''Goat'' couldn't have written this memoir any more than the 8-year-old Lauck could have produced ''Blackbird.'' What at first seems like a relentless act of self-exposure is actually an artful impersonation of Land's past self. Today's Land, the author of ''Goat,'' and what he thinks about the humiliations he endured, remain concealed.
In principle, the memoir that reaches for understanding has greater merit than an untempered horror story. In inconvenient reality, ''Goat'' exerts a hypnotic power that ''American Sucker'' [by Denby] can't match. Where Denby labors manfully to arrive at fairly conventional insights, Land leaves the meaning of his story up to us. We can cut its profundity to suit ourselves. Even when you bare your soul, it's sometimes smartest not to tell all.
[end excerpt]
{from time to time notices of books or movies that seem to the den of SMACK}
My Not So Secret Life, by Laura Miller {reviewer}
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/08/books/review/08MILLERT.html
[start]
Brad Land's new memoir, ''Goat,'' recounts in spare, numbed sentences how he was brutalized in a violent robbery and later subjected himself to similar degradations during a fraternity hazing. Like ''Blackbird,''[by Lauck] ''Goat'' is a creepy page turner, offering itself up as a raw, bleeding slab of experience, unseasoned by later judgments. But the immediacy of both is an illusion; the stunned, inarticulate narrator of ''Goat'' couldn't have written this memoir any more than the 8-year-old Lauck could have produced ''Blackbird.'' What at first seems like a relentless act of self-exposure is actually an artful impersonation of Land's past self. Today's Land, the author of ''Goat,'' and what he thinks about the humiliations he endured, remain concealed.
In principle, the memoir that reaches for understanding has greater merit than an untempered horror story. In inconvenient reality, ''Goat'' exerts a hypnotic power that ''American Sucker'' [by Denby] can't match. Where Denby labors manfully to arrive at fairly conventional insights, Land leaves the meaning of his story up to us. We can cut its profundity to suit ourselves. Even when you bare your soul, it's sometimes smartest not to tell all.
[end excerpt]
Pure
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Books, Heads Up
{Rape, A Love Story}
"Re Joyce"
Review by Martin Levin, Globe and Mail, Toronto
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...y/LAC/20040207/BKLEVI07/TPEntertainment/Books
Joyce Carol Oates writes faster than I can read. She writes novels and story collections. She writes mysteries and children's books. She writes poetry, essays and non-fiction. She writes thoughtful long book reviews, edits anthologies. She writes as herself and she writes pseudonymously. Here, for instance, is her booklist for 2003: The Tattooed Girl (a novel); The Garden of Earthly Delights, a novel from 1967, revised and substantially rewritten; Small Avalanches and Other Stories, a collection; The Faith of a Writer: Life, Craft, Art, on the making of narrative; Freaky Green Eyes, a novel for young adults; and for children, Where Is Little Reynard? Not to mention three short stories, a short play, an essay on Robert Lowell and several book reviews. Oh, yes, and she teaches at Princeton, as well. [snipped]
Rape: A Love Story (Carroll & Graf/Otto Penzler, 154 pages, $23.95) plays out
Oates's trademark investigation of the link between love and violence. And, as usual, bad things happen to ordinary people. The ordinary person in this case is Teena Maguire. Teena makes a big mistake, a big, American, Fourth of July mistake. Walking home from a holiday party in sad Niagara falls, N.Y., in 1996 with her 12-year-old daughter Bethie, Teena decides to take a shortcut through Rocky Point Park. That's her mistake. On this most American of days, she suffers a most American of fates: She is set upon by louts juiced on crystal meth, brutally gang-raped and left barely alive.
The ripples from that error expand relentlessly. Bethie is beaten, her arm badly dislocated. Terrified, she imagines her mother murdered (rape not yet being a concept available to her), the psychological scar tissue already forming. Teena, damaged outside and in, disoriented, is terrified of a trial, becomes suicidal. The court case goes improbably badly.
One of the cops answering the rape call is John Droomer, an army vet and possibly psychotic gun nut. He has earlier met Teena, who flirted with him lightly in a bar. A young father himself, he finds himself gripped by Teena's terror, becomes her private avenger. Out of this dreadful crime there arises an eerie redemption, a singular sort of love.
Oates propels the narrative in short, twitchy chapters, shifting back and forth in time and narrative perspective, often inhabiting Bethie's consciousness, sometimes Teena's, or one of the rapists'.
In Rape, as she so often is, Oates is fascinated by the consequences of unlikely little turns, the profound effect of seemingly innocuous decisions. Chance governs our lives, and chance is a brute, lying in wait to collide with character. "Good luck, bad luck. Hit by lightning, spared by lightning," muses post-innocent Bethie, who soon learns to cope with the bitter fruits of this knowledge. This short, potent work demands to be read at one sitting, and I expect it to have a longish aftertaste. [end excerpt]
{Rape, A Love Story}
"Re Joyce"
Review by Martin Levin, Globe and Mail, Toronto
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...y/LAC/20040207/BKLEVI07/TPEntertainment/Books
Joyce Carol Oates writes faster than I can read. She writes novels and story collections. She writes mysteries and children's books. She writes poetry, essays and non-fiction. She writes thoughtful long book reviews, edits anthologies. She writes as herself and she writes pseudonymously. Here, for instance, is her booklist for 2003: The Tattooed Girl (a novel); The Garden of Earthly Delights, a novel from 1967, revised and substantially rewritten; Small Avalanches and Other Stories, a collection; The Faith of a Writer: Life, Craft, Art, on the making of narrative; Freaky Green Eyes, a novel for young adults; and for children, Where Is Little Reynard? Not to mention three short stories, a short play, an essay on Robert Lowell and several book reviews. Oh, yes, and she teaches at Princeton, as well. [snipped]
Rape: A Love Story (Carroll & Graf/Otto Penzler, 154 pages, $23.95) plays out
Oates's trademark investigation of the link between love and violence. And, as usual, bad things happen to ordinary people. The ordinary person in this case is Teena Maguire. Teena makes a big mistake, a big, American, Fourth of July mistake. Walking home from a holiday party in sad Niagara falls, N.Y., in 1996 with her 12-year-old daughter Bethie, Teena decides to take a shortcut through Rocky Point Park. That's her mistake. On this most American of days, she suffers a most American of fates: She is set upon by louts juiced on crystal meth, brutally gang-raped and left barely alive.
The ripples from that error expand relentlessly. Bethie is beaten, her arm badly dislocated. Terrified, she imagines her mother murdered (rape not yet being a concept available to her), the psychological scar tissue already forming. Teena, damaged outside and in, disoriented, is terrified of a trial, becomes suicidal. The court case goes improbably badly.
One of the cops answering the rape call is John Droomer, an army vet and possibly psychotic gun nut. He has earlier met Teena, who flirted with him lightly in a bar. A young father himself, he finds himself gripped by Teena's terror, becomes her private avenger. Out of this dreadful crime there arises an eerie redemption, a singular sort of love.
Oates propels the narrative in short, twitchy chapters, shifting back and forth in time and narrative perspective, often inhabiting Bethie's consciousness, sometimes Teena's, or one of the rapists'.
In Rape, as she so often is, Oates is fascinated by the consequences of unlikely little turns, the profound effect of seemingly innocuous decisions. Chance governs our lives, and chance is a brute, lying in wait to collide with character. "Good luck, bad luck. Hit by lightning, spared by lightning," muses post-innocent Bethie, who soon learns to cope with the bitter fruits of this knowledge. This short, potent work demands to be read at one sitting, and I expect it to have a longish aftertaste. [end excerpt]
Pure
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Quint said,
//BTW, sigsauerprincess, very seldom do I orgasm from sex //
At least one other poster in the larger forum has said the same thing.
Sade himself had extreme difficulty reaching orgasm.
Is there a link between (a taste for) do/undergoing cruelty and difficult orgasm?
If you're inclined to do/suffer cruelty, do you prefer a partner with easy or difficult orgasms? (All the fantasy partners [bdsm players] I've ever 'seen' in Lit porn and routine hack stories are 'easy comers', with the odd, and noteworthy exception of "O")
Supposing someone had a 'normal' (ha!) orgasmic capability, would it be possible to *reduce* that by way of demeaning them?
For the male, some cruel stories speak of ways of draining off seminal fluid with no sensation, numbing of certain areas, etc.
//BTW, sigsauerprincess, very seldom do I orgasm from sex //
At least one other poster in the larger forum has said the same thing.
Sade himself had extreme difficulty reaching orgasm.
Is there a link between (a taste for) do/undergoing cruelty and difficult orgasm?
If you're inclined to do/suffer cruelty, do you prefer a partner with easy or difficult orgasms? (All the fantasy partners [bdsm players] I've ever 'seen' in Lit porn and routine hack stories are 'easy comers', with the odd, and noteworthy exception of "O")
Supposing someone had a 'normal' (ha!) orgasmic capability, would it be possible to *reduce* that by way of demeaning them?
For the male, some cruel stories speak of ways of draining off seminal fluid with no sensation, numbing of certain areas, etc.
sigsauerprinces
just a shot away from you
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actually, for a long time i couldnt cum from intercourse either. i started having sex at 15 and didnt cum from intercourse until i was 23, -and coincidently or not so, the guy was the first man i ever really loved and TRUSTED. i trusted him a 100%, something i'd never experienced before. and it took me a few months even with him, but i did it. i'll never forget it. i was in awe both of him, for making me cum, and of myself, for actually doing it. i can cum pretty regularly now, but i wouldnt call myself an "easy" comer, not at all. if im nervous, upset, sad, stressed, uncertain, it most likely wont happen.
both of him, for making me cum, and of myself, for actually doing it. i can cum pretty regularly now, but i wouldnt call myself an "easy" comer, not at all. if im nervous, upset, sad, stressed, uncertain, it most likely wont happen.
Pure
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OK, let me rephrase, SSP,
What say you to the cruel and/or erotic potential the following: a man both stimulating you and making sure you're nervous and uncertain enough not to come. Perhaps, the latter periodically whenever you're getting too close.
What say you to the cruel and/or erotic potential the following: a man both stimulating you and making sure you're nervous and uncertain enough not to come. Perhaps, the latter periodically whenever you're getting too close.
sigsauerprinces
just a shot away from you
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Pure said:
id say that has a LOT of cruel/erotic potential. being that orgasms have bever beeb easy for me to reach with a partner, its still kind of a big deal to me when i do have them, so to be brought to the brink and then kept too uncertain and offbalance to actually cum..that would definately be torture to me.
Kajira Callista
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Pure said:
mmmm stimulation and scrambled brains....gotta love that.
Netzach
>semiotics?
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Have you ever done play piercing of any kind?
If so, you probably know what I'm talking about. If not, it's the quickest fastest surest route to endorphinated stupidity that I've ever seen.
Yes, I do aim to create runners high in a bottom when I feel like inducing that state versus a more masochistic suffering one.
I find people remarkably easy to influence thus, which is erotic for me.
If so, you probably know what I'm talking about. If not, it's the quickest fastest surest route to endorphinated stupidity that I've ever seen.
Yes, I do aim to create runners high in a bottom when I feel like inducing that state versus a more masochistic suffering one.
I find people remarkably easy to influence thus, which is erotic for me.
Pure
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New SMACK Topic.
Amorality
Let's leave aside friendships and relationships whose maintenance requires some degree of mutual consideration and/or ethics. Straight people and deviates (like Sade) have them. They are a valued part of life, like flowers and rainbows. But 'done' to death in threads and books and dr. phil.
Let's leave aside pure fantasy, where anything goes.
The sex drive, esp. its perverse components is essentially amoral; the drive disregards moral considerations, such as 'that person is already married' or 'that person is a nun.'
What kinds of encounters are envisioned? An encounter of top and bottom, spider and fly, pervert type A and pervert type B, which may go as far as possible towards gratification, by means of 'use,' 'exploitation,' 'seduction,' 'mind fuck,' 'deception,' 'power of persuasion or influence,' 'infliction of pain or suffering.' Roses and champagne--perhaps-- but something else is brewing.
The only guidelines are non ethical (SMACK is not Dahmer-ism): Prudence and the law. Quite simple.
What erotic behavior, episodes, and scenes are of NO interest? Those that reek of ethics and care; more usually, the pretense of them: I am here to fulfil you, to draw out and satisfy your deepest needs. The objection to altruism is that, here, it is boring or laughable.
What draws our attention? The encounters where one party smacks into another, where erotic reality is unadorned; where no one binds themselves with any duties of special care. These contain the spark and juice of life, rather than the stale stench of mechanical routine.
Appropriate to the discussion: the classic "Dangerous Liaisons" (two movie versions, one titled 'Valmont') with many examples of unadorned amoral behavior in the erotic realm.
J.
Amorality
Let's leave aside friendships and relationships whose maintenance requires some degree of mutual consideration and/or ethics. Straight people and deviates (like Sade) have them. They are a valued part of life, like flowers and rainbows. But 'done' to death in threads and books and dr. phil.
Let's leave aside pure fantasy, where anything goes.
The sex drive, esp. its perverse components is essentially amoral; the drive disregards moral considerations, such as 'that person is already married' or 'that person is a nun.'
What kinds of encounters are envisioned? An encounter of top and bottom, spider and fly, pervert type A and pervert type B, which may go as far as possible towards gratification, by means of 'use,' 'exploitation,' 'seduction,' 'mind fuck,' 'deception,' 'power of persuasion or influence,' 'infliction of pain or suffering.' Roses and champagne--perhaps-- but something else is brewing.
The only guidelines are non ethical (SMACK is not Dahmer-ism): Prudence and the law. Quite simple.
What erotic behavior, episodes, and scenes are of NO interest? Those that reek of ethics and care; more usually, the pretense of them: I am here to fulfil you, to draw out and satisfy your deepest needs. The objection to altruism is that, here, it is boring or laughable.
What draws our attention? The encounters where one party smacks into another, where erotic reality is unadorned; where no one binds themselves with any duties of special care. These contain the spark and juice of life, rather than the stale stench of mechanical routine.
Appropriate to the discussion: the classic "Dangerous Liaisons" (two movie versions, one titled 'Valmont') with many examples of unadorned amoral behavior in the erotic realm.
J.
catalina_francisco
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Pure said:
IMHO the amorality of the sex drive does not disregard 'morality' but the breaking of the standard morality is an added turn on. I would go even further and say that it could very well be the reason why some actually perform ‘amoral’ sex acts. It is the breaking of the standard morality which is in essence the whole attraction.
Francisco,
Pure
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Hi Francisco
AKA "the saintly perv"
Welcome. The illumination from your halo brings light to all souls in darkness.
You said,
IMHO the amorality of the sex drive does not disregard 'morality' but the breaking of the standard morality is an added turn on. I would go even further and say that it could very well be the reason why some actually perform ‘amoral’ sex acts. It is the breaking of the standard morality which is in essence the whole attraction.
The SMACK concept, in mild form is found, not infrequently, among ordinary people with 'standard morality.' Consider, at the conclusion of a first meeting (first date/ casual encounter): Either may say, "That was great" or, "That was awful" and walk out the door. There's simplly no obligation to explain, or have further contact.
In a word, you don't have to be Florence Nightengale to whomever you fuck.
I don't disagree, however, Francisco, that one of the 'joys of sex' is besides considering one's health (prudence), 'I'm taking my pleasure, and every norm and rule outside the Criminal Code**, be damned. " (the law)
J.
**In its ideal form; its basics: Minus any 'blue law', Texas anti-sodomy, Massachussets anti-adultery, or Alabama anti-miscegenation law, etc.
AKA "the saintly perv"
Welcome. The illumination from your halo brings light to all souls in darkness.
You said,
IMHO the amorality of the sex drive does not disregard 'morality' but the breaking of the standard morality is an added turn on. I would go even further and say that it could very well be the reason why some actually perform ‘amoral’ sex acts. It is the breaking of the standard morality which is in essence the whole attraction.
The SMACK concept, in mild form is found, not infrequently, among ordinary people with 'standard morality.' Consider, at the conclusion of a first meeting (first date/ casual encounter): Either may say, "That was great" or, "That was awful" and walk out the door. There's simplly no obligation to explain, or have further contact.
In a word, you don't have to be Florence Nightengale to whomever you fuck.
I don't disagree, however, Francisco, that one of the 'joys of sex' is besides considering one's health (prudence), 'I'm taking my pleasure, and every norm and rule outside the Criminal Code**, be damned. " (the law)
J.
**In its ideal form; its basics: Minus any 'blue law', Texas anti-sodomy, Massachussets anti-adultery, or Alabama anti-miscegenation law, etc.
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catalina_francisco
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YEs I agree with you Pure but my point is that it can not only be an added bonus but it can be the whole porpuse of the intended amorality.
For example lets take a look at a women wanting to be a whore, one that is being paid for sex, to be precise.
I would say that the attraction of the game is the breaking of the morality standard. In this specific case morality and amorilty are both interwtined and can not be disconnected from eachother. And I am sure that there are many other possibilities.
Francisco.
For example lets take a look at a women wanting to be a whore, one that is being paid for sex, to be precise.
I would say that the attraction of the game is the breaking of the morality standard. In this specific case morality and amorilty are both interwtined and can not be disconnected from eachother. And I am sure that there are many other possibilities.
Francisco.
Pure
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I'd put what is perhaps the same general idea thus: IMmorality may well be the core intention, as well as source of erotism.
To pimp someone or commit adultery. To exploit someone or move in on a 'weak point.' Or, from the other side, to prostitute oneself**, to undergo exploitation.
This was not mentioned since the whole point is the Amorality of basic drives, esp. perverse ones. It's not a basic drive, but a learned pastime, to be IMmoral.
And of course the displayed violation of a standard presupposes general (or at least hypocritical) conformity to that standard.
I'd like to hear any story from the 'real' or 'fantasy/fictional' world(also real), that illustrates the concepts described; amoral happenings.
J.
**voluntarily; apart from the necessity to make a living, or make money. There's rarely anything erotic in routine whoring for the price of the next 'fix.' 'Belle de Jour' is a special case.
To pimp someone or commit adultery. To exploit someone or move in on a 'weak point.' Or, from the other side, to prostitute oneself**, to undergo exploitation.
This was not mentioned since the whole point is the Amorality of basic drives, esp. perverse ones. It's not a basic drive, but a learned pastime, to be IMmoral.
And of course the displayed violation of a standard presupposes general (or at least hypocritical) conformity to that standard.
I'd like to hear any story from the 'real' or 'fantasy/fictional' world(also real), that illustrates the concepts described; amoral happenings.
J.
**voluntarily; apart from the necessity to make a living, or make money. There's rarely anything erotic in routine whoring for the price of the next 'fix.' 'Belle de Jour' is a special case.
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Pure
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In short,
Beyond the Criminal Code (no rape murder), if you fuck, tie, whip, play with, torture someone, do you owe them anything after?
Should a sadist be kind, gentle, and understanding overall, and 'play' --be sadistic-- ONLY within a pre-agreed framework(limits); or pre-set time (8-10 pm); or in specified location (bedroom)?
{{Added 2-20: The question is not clear. It should say, "Is the sadist under an obligation to be kind, benevolent, and protective overall (to the partner)? If so, how does a sadistic encounter confined to a single, perhaps prearranged, episode fit with the overall arrangement?}}
Beyond the Criminal Code (no rape murder), if you fuck, tie, whip, play with, torture someone, do you owe them anything after?
Should a sadist be kind, gentle, and understanding overall, and 'play' --be sadistic-- ONLY within a pre-agreed framework(limits); or pre-set time (8-10 pm); or in specified location (bedroom)?
{{Added 2-20: The question is not clear. It should say, "Is the sadist under an obligation to be kind, benevolent, and protective overall (to the partner)? If so, how does a sadistic encounter confined to a single, perhaps prearranged, episode fit with the overall arrangement?}}
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Kajira Callista
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Sadistic is part of who a person is. It makes them who they are. How do you limit that to any type of framework. In my experience sadistic personalites are the nicest warmest ppl you wanna know till that lil devil pops up....part of their charm i suppose. well for me anyway.Pure said:
Netzach
>semiotics?
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Maybe it's not because the person feels a sense of debt that they give these things (understanding, empathy, attention etc.) but because they want to.
Some masochists are quite charming, you know?
Even deSade I think was motivated by a degree of identification with his victimized "others" what else would his equally as avid masochism point to?
Some masochists are quite charming, you know?
Even deSade I think was motivated by a degree of identification with his victimized "others" what else would his equally as avid masochism point to?
Pure
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N: Maybe it's not because the person feels a sense of debt that they give these things (understanding, empathy, attention etc.) but because they want to.
I don't think I was clear; sadists and masochists have charming sides at times, certainly.
I was trying to get at the feeling expressed by self said dom/mes that there is a duty of tender care, including 'after care'.
It wasn't "I will charm you" that I was thinking about, but "You are a little bird with a broken wing that I will fix, if you 'submit' to me."
I don't think I was clear; sadists and masochists have charming sides at times, certainly.
I was trying to get at the feeling expressed by self said dom/mes that there is a duty of tender care, including 'after care'.
It wasn't "I will charm you" that I was thinking about, but "You are a little bird with a broken wing that I will fix, if you 'submit' to me."
