SMACK--a concept, a gathering. Welcome.
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Kajira Callista
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Pure said:
Hmmm i dont thing sadists do that...they do wait , make sure your head is back together, but unless they want the textbook aftercare to happen it doesnt. Im not saying they are abusive about it, they just do it differently.
Netzach
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Not everyone I know is very touchy. I always wanted Tops I wasn't heavily involved with to back off and let me clean up and get on with my business, a cuddle from a loved one was nice but so was a bitchy gesture, I could handle either.
The only exception was once when I really did feel faint, on the verge of fainting, then I really DID need, and got, the hyper concerned treatment.
The only exception was once when I really did feel faint, on the verge of fainting, then I really DID need, and got, the hyper concerned treatment.
bridgeburner
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Why on earth would a sadist or a masochist or anyone be required to behave any certain way after an encounter? Particularly if it's casual?
Sure, you meet somebody and hook up and you have all kinds of things that you might want to get out of it. If you're lucky you'll get some of them. Otherwise chalk it up to experience and move on.
Or am I missing something here? Where are all these rules coming from?
-B
Sure, you meet somebody and hook up and you have all kinds of things that you might want to get out of it. If you're lucky you'll get some of them. Otherwise chalk it up to experience and move on.
Or am I missing something here? Where are all these rules coming from?
-B
Kajira Callista
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bridgeburner said:
castle realm?
lol
bridgeburner
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Hiya KC,
Certainly that might apply to formal D/s activities between committed/regular partners or at munches and the like, but I didn't think that's what Pure was talking about.
In the most casual of sexual encounters there aren't any rules. There's no structure. People are just trying to get off. Vanilla people do it all the time. Why would sadists and masochists be held to more strict guidelines?
Being a sadist means you're erotically stimulated by inflicting pain, period. The end.
There's no should attched to that. It just is. Should only gets involved when other people are present. Should you indulge your desires? How much should you indulge them? What precautions should be taken to safeguard against cries of "foul" from your playmates? What local laws should you be aware of before you parade your pet around the public square on a leash in asspants.
Should people treat one another with care? Ultimately, yes, because it's good for society, but on an individual basis there's no law against being an asshole.
-B
Certainly that might apply to formal D/s activities between committed/regular partners or at munches and the like, but I didn't think that's what Pure was talking about.
In the most casual of sexual encounters there aren't any rules. There's no structure. People are just trying to get off. Vanilla people do it all the time. Why would sadists and masochists be held to more strict guidelines?
Being a sadist means you're erotically stimulated by inflicting pain, period. The end.
There's no should attched to that. It just is. Should only gets involved when other people are present. Should you indulge your desires? How much should you indulge them? What precautions should be taken to safeguard against cries of "foul" from your playmates? What local laws should you be aware of before you parade your pet around the public square on a leash in asspants.
Should people treat one another with care? Ultimately, yes, because it's good for society, but on an individual basis there's no law against being an asshole.
-B
Kajira Callista
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bridgeburner said:
I agree with you...my reply was an attempt at humour that didnt work i suppose.
Being a masochist, i dont want nor to i require the pet me and make me better stuff....i got the make me better stuff during the scene and actually am happy with the fact that i was allowed it. I think a few may use it in the begining to reassure a sub/masochist that its ok afterward...but once you know the deal it is not needed.....in a loving S&M relationship...the cuddling does happen, when it does its because thats what the Top was wanting...if it doesnt happen there are certainly no BDSM police at the door and sub is not traumatized for life. This is all how i see things my own personal "way it is" in the world, im sure many more do also but would never admit it because of all these rules to D/s you find wherever you turn.
bridgeburner
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My first impression was that you were being facetious, but I figured just in case not, I'd respond earnestly.
-B
-B
Kajira Callista
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bridgeburner said:
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Bridgeburner seemed puzzled at the idea of requirements for behavior in DS episodes.
I found a well written example of this 'duty to care' view, in the excellent essay by Serijules, excerpted below. (I post this for discussion, and no inferences are to be made about its endorsement, except as an articulate expression of a possible view.) What do people say?
http://www.serijules.com/aftercare.htm
From the essay, "The Art of Aftercare" by Serijules
[start excerpts, about 1/4 of total reproduced with permission]
One of the most important part of any and all safe, sane and consensual play, is the aftercare. Aftercare is often overlooked, or substituted with a quick hug and a reassuring word or two that in the long run doesn't leave a positive emotional impact and sometimes just isn't enough.
Quality aftercare involves so much more, and sometimes needs to start long before any actual playing takes place, especially in scenes that involve that blissful adrenaline rush often called 'subspace'. Aftercare is not just for the submissives...'domspace' is a very real and valid experience that is often overlooked.
Aftercare needs will not be the same for every person in every situation. Some points I discussin this essay will be a given in a longer term relationship. However, it is my personal belief that every person in every type of relationship and scene needs some type of aftercare, and I'mgoing to talk about my personal experiences and beliefs in aftercare, especially when combined with subspace[....]
Before, During and After
Many people define aftercare as care after the scene, as the word itself implies. However, I feel that aftercare needs to start long before a scene ever starts, and the more focused the care is the better the overall experience will be. Aftercare comes in both physical and emotional forms and as with everything in the bdsm and spanking lifestyle, will vary from person to person in what they need and want.
Aftercare Before a Scene
Before a scene, or a punishment, or even just a quick over the knee spanking...there are often doubts and worries that many people do not voice, so can easily be overlooked. A dominant that wants the overall experience to have a positive influence on the submissive needs to be aware of this potential for emotional baggage.
Often times before a scene I am a nervous wreck with worries about impressing my partner, scared I won't be able to take what I am given or won't meet expectations, obsessing over how my body may react, or what any voyeurs to the scene will think of me. These worries often put a damper on my ability to enjoy the scene and hinder my ability to relax. No matter how confident a submissive may be or how much trust they have in their partner, such worries often do exist and as I mentioned, may not be voiced or shared for fear of looking silly or immature.
Reassurance is an important form of scene care. The worries may be irrational or illogical, but that doesn't make them any less real or any less important. Failure to give these worries the recognition they deserve can have a negative impact on the scene and the submissive's enjoyment of it. Encouragement, reassurance and taking the time to ask about and acknowledge any worries can go a long way in preparing the submissive and making the experience overall, a more positive one. [...]
Aftercare After a Scene
Despite the importance of care before and during a scene, after the scene is when the most care is going to be vital, thus the use of the term 'aftercare'. Submitting to someone can be a very intense experience, especially when combined with physically taxing activities or including the mental rush of subspace. Quality aftercare is important to maintaining a positive mental state and keeping a healthy level of self confidence. It is a responsibility that the dom accepts the second he or she starts a scene, and it takes a lot of trust for a sub to hand over that much control. If the dom does not have the interest, time or abilities to provide quality aftercare, than the scene diminishes to nothing less than a grotesque example of abuse.
Aftercare is especially important during a phase some call subdrop. Subdrop refers to the feelings of intense anger, betrayal, loneliness or emotional instability that many subs feel after playing. I go to play parties a few times a year and spend many many hours playing, often pushing limits, with good friends and new friends alike. When I get home, I am usually hit with incredibly strong feelings of loneliness and a huge drop in self confidence. [...]
[...]
Tops need to be aware of and be able to recognize the signs up subdrop, be available to help the bottom get through those times and rebuild his or her emotional strength, and provide the support necessary to ensure the overall experience remains a positive one. Bottoms need to remember that their tops are only human too, and might experience doubts and periods of 'top' drop as well. Having doubts or insecurities does not make anyone less of a dominant, if handled properly.
Aftercare can be an extremely fulfilling and bonding moment between a bottom and a top, no matter what the nature of their relationship is. The intimacy of such moments is hard to compete with, and is a very tender and empathic moment for both roles.
Types of Aftercare
Aftercare comes in both physical and mental forms. You may spend hours being spanked, teased, tied up, tortured, pushed, lectured and pleasured, and this WILL take a toll on your mind and your body. During a scene there may be times when you need to be reassured, a chance to rest, have a drink of water and 'check in". The aftercare, and care in general is important in any situation, but especially so in heavier or longer scenes, or scenes that are wrought with emotional issues (a stern punishment, etc).
Physical comfort is one of the main types of aftercare. Hugs, cuddling, just being near one other, or even just being in the same room for an extended period of time, are all valuable physical forms of aftercare. Some ways to offer physical comfort include simply holding and hugging, stroking hair, tell him or her how brave they were, make her believe that she's okay, or letting him pour some of that energy into you to take the edge off. It is important to remember that your body will need care too, and applying lotions or creams to welts can be a very comforting form of bonding, as well as making the effort to keep welts and bruises properly cared for.
[end excerpts]
===
Serijules' other fine essays and stories are at her website,
http://www.serijules.com
I found a well written example of this 'duty to care' view, in the excellent essay by Serijules, excerpted below. (I post this for discussion, and no inferences are to be made about its endorsement, except as an articulate expression of a possible view.) What do people say?
http://www.serijules.com/aftercare.htm
From the essay, "The Art of Aftercare" by Serijules
[start excerpts, about 1/4 of total reproduced with permission]
One of the most important part of any and all safe, sane and consensual play, is the aftercare. Aftercare is often overlooked, or substituted with a quick hug and a reassuring word or two that in the long run doesn't leave a positive emotional impact and sometimes just isn't enough.
Quality aftercare involves so much more, and sometimes needs to start long before any actual playing takes place, especially in scenes that involve that blissful adrenaline rush often called 'subspace'. Aftercare is not just for the submissives...'domspace' is a very real and valid experience that is often overlooked.
Aftercare needs will not be the same for every person in every situation. Some points I discussin this essay will be a given in a longer term relationship. However, it is my personal belief that every person in every type of relationship and scene needs some type of aftercare, and I'mgoing to talk about my personal experiences and beliefs in aftercare, especially when combined with subspace[....]
Before, During and After
Many people define aftercare as care after the scene, as the word itself implies. However, I feel that aftercare needs to start long before a scene ever starts, and the more focused the care is the better the overall experience will be. Aftercare comes in both physical and emotional forms and as with everything in the bdsm and spanking lifestyle, will vary from person to person in what they need and want.
Aftercare Before a Scene
Before a scene, or a punishment, or even just a quick over the knee spanking...there are often doubts and worries that many people do not voice, so can easily be overlooked. A dominant that wants the overall experience to have a positive influence on the submissive needs to be aware of this potential for emotional baggage.
Often times before a scene I am a nervous wreck with worries about impressing my partner, scared I won't be able to take what I am given or won't meet expectations, obsessing over how my body may react, or what any voyeurs to the scene will think of me. These worries often put a damper on my ability to enjoy the scene and hinder my ability to relax. No matter how confident a submissive may be or how much trust they have in their partner, such worries often do exist and as I mentioned, may not be voiced or shared for fear of looking silly or immature.
Reassurance is an important form of scene care. The worries may be irrational or illogical, but that doesn't make them any less real or any less important. Failure to give these worries the recognition they deserve can have a negative impact on the scene and the submissive's enjoyment of it. Encouragement, reassurance and taking the time to ask about and acknowledge any worries can go a long way in preparing the submissive and making the experience overall, a more positive one. [...]
Aftercare After a Scene
Despite the importance of care before and during a scene, after the scene is when the most care is going to be vital, thus the use of the term 'aftercare'. Submitting to someone can be a very intense experience, especially when combined with physically taxing activities or including the mental rush of subspace. Quality aftercare is important to maintaining a positive mental state and keeping a healthy level of self confidence. It is a responsibility that the dom accepts the second he or she starts a scene, and it takes a lot of trust for a sub to hand over that much control. If the dom does not have the interest, time or abilities to provide quality aftercare, than the scene diminishes to nothing less than a grotesque example of abuse.
Aftercare is especially important during a phase some call subdrop. Subdrop refers to the feelings of intense anger, betrayal, loneliness or emotional instability that many subs feel after playing. I go to play parties a few times a year and spend many many hours playing, often pushing limits, with good friends and new friends alike. When I get home, I am usually hit with incredibly strong feelings of loneliness and a huge drop in self confidence. [...]
[...]
Tops need to be aware of and be able to recognize the signs up subdrop, be available to help the bottom get through those times and rebuild his or her emotional strength, and provide the support necessary to ensure the overall experience remains a positive one. Bottoms need to remember that their tops are only human too, and might experience doubts and periods of 'top' drop as well. Having doubts or insecurities does not make anyone less of a dominant, if handled properly.
Aftercare can be an extremely fulfilling and bonding moment between a bottom and a top, no matter what the nature of their relationship is. The intimacy of such moments is hard to compete with, and is a very tender and empathic moment for both roles.
Types of Aftercare
Aftercare comes in both physical and mental forms. You may spend hours being spanked, teased, tied up, tortured, pushed, lectured and pleasured, and this WILL take a toll on your mind and your body. During a scene there may be times when you need to be reassured, a chance to rest, have a drink of water and 'check in". The aftercare, and care in general is important in any situation, but especially so in heavier or longer scenes, or scenes that are wrought with emotional issues (a stern punishment, etc).
Physical comfort is one of the main types of aftercare. Hugs, cuddling, just being near one other, or even just being in the same room for an extended period of time, are all valuable physical forms of aftercare. Some ways to offer physical comfort include simply holding and hugging, stroking hair, tell him or her how brave they were, make her believe that she's okay, or letting him pour some of that energy into you to take the edge off. It is important to remember that your body will need care too, and applying lotions or creams to welts can be a very comforting form of bonding, as well as making the effort to keep welts and bruises properly cared for.
[end excerpts]
===
Serijules' other fine essays and stories are at her website,
http://www.serijules.com
Last edited:
sigsauerprinces
just a shot away from you
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this subdrop thing bafflels me..i just dont get why it would happen..it makes me think that the only reason it would happen is if the scene had gone poorly, but i know ppl will come in and say thats not the case..i guess i just dont get it. after scenes i feel good...great..giddy, happy, content, safe, free, loved. hell, even after punishments, i feel good. ive never felt a sudden drop in self confidence, or felt angry or betrayed or any of that. i dont know it just seems really strange to me.
Yeah, I get it every so often, after particularly vicious scenes. It sucks, ssp, because I CAN'T explain why it happens. I don't know why I start crying or feel lost or distraught or any other number of vague anxieties. I just do. This is also the only time I ever question myself and my mode of relationship..."why the hell did I let him do that to me?" sometimes crosses my mind. It doesn't even matter that I might have been "loving it" during or that I'll be wishing for a repeat later. I just feel hollow and depressed. Those are the times I really need some pampering and often a rational breakdown of what happened, why it was good for him, how I contributed to that, how I felt at various times. By the end of that, I'm better.
I'd also speak up in favor of serijules' point that Doms also sometimes need aftercare. I was fine after what T did to me this morning, but it hit him harder and he NEEDED to connect with me. Rubbed him the right way, I s'pose.
Where's Eb to make her infamous YMMV when we need her?
I'd also speak up in favor of serijules' point that Doms also sometimes need aftercare. I was fine after what T did to me this morning, but it hit him harder and he NEEDED to connect with me. Rubbed him the right way, I s'pose.
Where's Eb to make her infamous YMMV when we need her?
Kajira Callista
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sigsauerprinces said:
subdrop doesnt always happen right away, for me it happens days after....when the soreness goes or the bruises fade....cant feel them anymore cant keep myself on that *high* and i drop...then the depression (for lack of a better word at the moment) takes over, and even though i know all of it is purely a physical reaction....it still sucks.
For pure....i think that sub/slaves learn that its not always cuddling and all the sweet stuff when dealing with a sadist. And ya know after reading what you posted, yes they do give aftercare, not the kind that you read about but its done. I know that after a scene a sadistic type would not leave till the situation was totally evaluated and they saw you were ok. They may not say a word or make it obvious that they are checking on you but they do. A sub who knows that is actually realizing she/he is getting aftercare. If you arent ok be it mentally or physically after a scene, they will do what they have to do to fix it, i think its basically understood that they were given consent to tear it to shreds and leaving it broken means they dont get the chance to do it again. Are they responsible to provide aftercare....thats questionable in my head.....do they do it.....yes.
serijules
just seri
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sigsauerprinces said:
I used to feel that way too, and actually get really annoyed with friends that were going through "subdrop" (or whatever one calls it, it doesn't necessarily need a label but I use one for convienience sake). It seemed so dramatic, a plea for attention or something, even manipulative. But the first time I felt subspace in a scene was a very intense caning, and I felt awesome afterwards, I was so giddy and happy and so sure of myself. Then a few days later, like Quint indicated, I started wondering why the heck I let someone do that to me, scared of how I handled that level of pain, and doubting my decisions, etc. At first I was really annoyed with myself for feeling that way, but I've come to accept that is part of the emotional cycle I go through and that there is nothing wrong with it.
I think in a way that it is the mind's method of handling the intensity that comes to play in subspace. It's very exhausting, at least for me, to reach that level. After all the fun and intensity and hype that goes into intense play, some people's mind and body just needs a way to wind down and seems to take an opposite approach in the other direction. Kind of like when you spend all day running around at work on a constant "go" mode, and get home and are suddenly completely blank and exhausted. I hate these times myself, and I try hard to control them, but I have found many times that I just can't, and I need a partner that is willing to be there for me. Some doms don't like this, and I have learned to simply not play with them because their lack of understanding makes me feel even worse, and there is no sense putting myself through that, or annoying them with the needs.
One thing I would like to note for anyone that is reading this essay...it was written for those that DO embrace the concept of aftercare and want or need it in their lifestyle. I realize there are those out there that have no need for it, top and bottom alike. I plan to write a "part two" covering this concept as well, and why consensual agreement to not need/provide aftercare does not fall into the abuse category. Netzach said it best with liking a "pack and go" form of aftercare. Very interesting concept, and one I'd like to explore more, thanks for the idea
Netzach
>semiotics?
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Pack and go really means pack the things while I go get you a glass of water and leave you to fully experience what's just gone on. I do this in comfortable known spaces-- in public clubs the water's there and I may stand off to watch the scene next to us, but I'm not far from my bottom!
My personal philosophy is this: the small service is something to meditate on and keep a submissive mindful of the nature of the relationship just carried out. The contact with the implements that were just used is pretty loaded. Additionally, I feel very strongly that a bottom's experience, however submissive they are to me, is still THEIRS. I find hugging, are you ok are you ok, I'm here I'm here, all these responses to be very intrusive and stifling at times. It's not to say I don't do them, or never do them, it's just something that I try my best to do when I genuinely want to, not because I ought to or endorphins demand. Endorphins demand attention and awareness, that's about it.
My personal philosophy is this: the small service is something to meditate on and keep a submissive mindful of the nature of the relationship just carried out. The contact with the implements that were just used is pretty loaded. Additionally, I feel very strongly that a bottom's experience, however submissive they are to me, is still THEIRS. I find hugging, are you ok are you ok, I'm here I'm here, all these responses to be very intrusive and stifling at times. It's not to say I don't do them, or never do them, it's just something that I try my best to do when I genuinely want to, not because I ought to or endorphins demand. Endorphins demand attention and awareness, that's about it.
serijules
just seri
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Netzach said:
Thanks for elaborating. The funny thing for me, is that the more experienced I become in the lifestyle, the more my needs for physical aftercare drop. In "the beginning", it was a very strong need and I could only play with those that understood that and were willing to give it. Now, I only want that from those that I am very close to and when the giving of it is, as you said, natural and something they want, rather than expected. Maybe my own understanding of my self confidence as a sub and what I can handle and how I handle it is stronger, so I am more secure in not 'needing' so much from my partner.
Ah well, interesting subject, I'll explore it more sometime.
Pure
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Aftercare
Seri said,
"It is a responsibility that the dom accepts the second he or she starts a scene, and it takes a lot of trust for a sub to hand over that much control. If the dom does not have the interest, time or abilities to provide quality aftercare, than the scene diminishes to nothing less than a grotesque example of abuse. [...]
"Some ways to offer physical comfort include simply holding and hugging, stroking hair, tell him or her how brave they were, make her believe that she's okay, or letting him pour some of that energy into you to take the edge off."
Seri added 2-21
"One thing I would like to note for anyone that is reading this essay...it was written for those that DO embrace the concept of aftercare and want or need it in their lifestyle. I realize there are those out there that have no need for it, top and bottom alike. I plan to write a "part two" covering this concept as well, and why consensual agreement to not need/provide aftercare does not fall into the abuse category. Netzach said it best with liking a "pack and go" form of aftercare. "
Kajira said
For pure....i think that sub/slaves learn that its not always cuddling and all the sweet stuff when dealing with a sadist. And ya know after reading what you posted, yes they do give aftercare, not the kind that you read about but its done. I know that after a scene a sadistic type would not leave till the situation was totally evaluated and they saw you were ok.
And ya know after reading what you posted, yes they do give aftercare, not the kind that you read about but its done.
They may not say a word or make it obvious that they are checking on you but they do. A sub who knows that is actually realizing she/he is getting aftercare. If you arent ok be it mentally or physically after a scene, they will do what they have to do to fix it, i think its basically understood that they were given consent to tear it to shreds and leaving it broken means they dont get the chance to do it again. Are they responsible to provide aftercare....thats questionable in my head.....do they do it.....yes.
====
These are interesting points. To me, esp. Seri's second thoughts about the 'strong' position that failing to give aftercare is abuse.
First, the usual clarification. There's no objection to the legal psych-sexual sessions any pair, triple, etc. may have. They may flog each other with noodles, or tell one another all manner of fantasy and compliment. There are many threads about Valentine 'bdsm' and/of fetishism. Those folks are not to be disturbed!
To the issues: can the 'consensual' framework be expanded to include sadistic sessions, with a 'pack and go' aftermath described by Netz.
I think perhaps this is trying to have things both ways. A meets B and decides to go for a 'raw fuck' no strings, and B gives obvious signs of being willing (implicit consent, in legal terms). Now, should A then say, "So is it now agreed, that there'll be no aftercare? That its 'pack and go'?" Isn't this like saying "Do I have your permission to be hard/harsh?" ro "Be warned I'm into the 'pack and go' approach. Please indicate your understanding."
This is a basic point in the SMACK concept, that amorality is cool; it needs no permission, or prior notication or explicit agreement. Again without going into detail, it's a type of approach not foreign to many straight, but casual 'vanilla' encounters (hence my citing of Dangerous Liaisons). It's a 'goes with the territory' idea; if you ski, you may twist an ankle or worse.
Kajira's point about a watchful approach is well put. I think it's what Netzach would call 'non intrusive' and humane. Further I particularly like the sentence "Are they responsible to provide aftercare....thats questionable in my head.....do they do it.....yes."
It's important to think clearly about what is a matter of duty or just 'done.'
As to the sentence:
"they were given consent to tear it to shreds and leaving it broken means they dont get the chance to do it again."
I'm not sure what it is, maybe the 'sub,' maybe the sub's psyche or confidence.
Well, there is the 'breaking' or 'shredding' of pride, not the same as breaking up the person's psyche and landing them in the psyche ward. In the first case, it will surely depend on the bottom's preferences whether to have further encounters---can't certain 'shreddings' be somehow gratifying in a weird maso way?
Seri said,
"It is a responsibility that the dom accepts the second he or she starts a scene, and it takes a lot of trust for a sub to hand over that much control. If the dom does not have the interest, time or abilities to provide quality aftercare, than the scene diminishes to nothing less than a grotesque example of abuse. [...]
"Some ways to offer physical comfort include simply holding and hugging, stroking hair, tell him or her how brave they were, make her believe that she's okay, or letting him pour some of that energy into you to take the edge off."
Seri added 2-21
"One thing I would like to note for anyone that is reading this essay...it was written for those that DO embrace the concept of aftercare and want or need it in their lifestyle. I realize there are those out there that have no need for it, top and bottom alike. I plan to write a "part two" covering this concept as well, and why consensual agreement to not need/provide aftercare does not fall into the abuse category. Netzach said it best with liking a "pack and go" form of aftercare. "
Kajira said
For pure....i think that sub/slaves learn that its not always cuddling and all the sweet stuff when dealing with a sadist. And ya know after reading what you posted, yes they do give aftercare, not the kind that you read about but its done. I know that after a scene a sadistic type would not leave till the situation was totally evaluated and they saw you were ok.
And ya know after reading what you posted, yes they do give aftercare, not the kind that you read about but its done.
They may not say a word or make it obvious that they are checking on you but they do. A sub who knows that is actually realizing she/he is getting aftercare. If you arent ok be it mentally or physically after a scene, they will do what they have to do to fix it, i think its basically understood that they were given consent to tear it to shreds and leaving it broken means they dont get the chance to do it again. Are they responsible to provide aftercare....thats questionable in my head.....do they do it.....yes.
====
These are interesting points. To me, esp. Seri's second thoughts about the 'strong' position that failing to give aftercare is abuse.
First, the usual clarification. There's no objection to the legal psych-sexual sessions any pair, triple, etc. may have. They may flog each other with noodles, or tell one another all manner of fantasy and compliment. There are many threads about Valentine 'bdsm' and/of fetishism. Those folks are not to be disturbed!
To the issues: can the 'consensual' framework be expanded to include sadistic sessions, with a 'pack and go' aftermath described by Netz.
I think perhaps this is trying to have things both ways. A meets B and decides to go for a 'raw fuck' no strings, and B gives obvious signs of being willing (implicit consent, in legal terms). Now, should A then say, "So is it now agreed, that there'll be no aftercare? That its 'pack and go'?" Isn't this like saying "Do I have your permission to be hard/harsh?" ro "Be warned I'm into the 'pack and go' approach. Please indicate your understanding."
This is a basic point in the SMACK concept, that amorality is cool; it needs no permission, or prior notication or explicit agreement. Again without going into detail, it's a type of approach not foreign to many straight, but casual 'vanilla' encounters (hence my citing of Dangerous Liaisons). It's a 'goes with the territory' idea; if you ski, you may twist an ankle or worse.
Kajira's point about a watchful approach is well put. I think it's what Netzach would call 'non intrusive' and humane. Further I particularly like the sentence "Are they responsible to provide aftercare....thats questionable in my head.....do they do it.....yes."
It's important to think clearly about what is a matter of duty or just 'done.'
As to the sentence:
"they were given consent to tear it to shreds and leaving it broken means they dont get the chance to do it again."
I'm not sure what it is, maybe the 'sub,' maybe the sub's psyche or confidence.
Well, there is the 'breaking' or 'shredding' of pride, not the same as breaking up the person's psyche and landing them in the psyche ward. In the first case, it will surely depend on the bottom's preferences whether to have further encounters---can't certain 'shreddings' be somehow gratifying in a weird maso way?
Netzach
>semiotics?
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I think there's a big difference between the following:
"I like to tell bottoms to pack my things after a scene, is it ok if you don't get your cuddles?"
"You may be cuddled after a scene, you may be told prefunctorily to pack our things and be quiet and out of my way. The choice is mine, and I want you aware of the possible outcomes. Neither is a reward or punishment, just what I want at a given time."
"I like to tell bottoms to pack my things after a scene, is it ok if you don't get your cuddles?"
"You may be cuddled after a scene, you may be told prefunctorily to pack our things and be quiet and out of my way. The choice is mine, and I want you aware of the possible outcomes. Neither is a reward or punishment, just what I want at a given time."
serijules
just seri
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My definition of "when lack of aftercare becomes abusive" is when a dom knowingly withholds aftercare understanding it will have a negative impact on the sub that might seriously affect his or her desire or ability to scene again. I was in a situation like this once a few years ago and it took years for me to get over it. The man knew very well how his actions were affecting me and knew I had consented to the scene having certain needs afterwards and agreeing how important they were. He choose to ignore them knowing fully well it would damage me in a very negative way (both physically and mentally...I still have the scars), and I don't find that acceptable. If he had told me or let me know that care after this particular scene might include him walking away and never talking to me again while I tended to bleeding open cane marks, I would never have consented to it.
So lack of aftercare or aftercare only provided at the dom's leisure is perfectly acceptable, but I feel it is the dom's responsibility to make sure the sub is aware of that and consenting to that. If the sub obviously needs a higher form of aftercare than a dom is willing or able to give, then they have no business sceneing unless the scene is nonconsensual by nature, which is a whole nother topic.
If that didn't make much sense, that's ok. I have a headache, and it's my birthday so I'm allowed to whine about it...I'm going back to bed.
So lack of aftercare or aftercare only provided at the dom's leisure is perfectly acceptable, but I feel it is the dom's responsibility to make sure the sub is aware of that and consenting to that. If the sub obviously needs a higher form of aftercare than a dom is willing or able to give, then they have no business sceneing unless the scene is nonconsensual by nature, which is a whole nother topic.
If that didn't make much sense, that's ok. I have a headache, and it's my birthday so I'm allowed to whine about it...I'm going back to bed.
Netzach
>semiotics?
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See, that's a perfect example of a situation I find totally unacceptable. I don't think we're obligated to be soft all the time, but I do think that SM versus abuse invokes the responsibility to make sure that your property/personal involvement/fellow human is ok on some level, is benefitting in some regard. The scenario you discuss is one where that responsibility is abdicated for some reason, whether ignorance or intent, and it's caused no positive outcome, increased mistrust and done damage. Even like-it-or-lump-it old guard ideas about slavery involve the notion of refinement, improvement, and learning.
sigsauerprinces
just a shot away from you
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serijules said:
im sorry that happened to you. that is really, really fucked up. there is such a thing as common human decency. like you say, if a Dom isnt into giving aftercare, fine, but the sub should be made aware of that fact so that they know what to expect. some of us, myself included, find aftercare to be important to their overall SM experience. i once broke it off with a Dom due to complete and utter lack of any aftercare. i told him if all you wanted was a non responsive object to beat, and not have any obligations to, go beat a fucking rug.
Kajira Callista
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Ok lets add a little. Is aftercare and the need or lack of need for it something that should be discussed at length before hand. Or do you just kind of "KNOW" (subs) if you are gonna get it (Doms) if you are gonna give it) before hand?
serijules
just seri
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Kajira Callista said:
Personally, I always discuss this beforehand....there are 3 things I discuss with anyone I play with or enter a relationship with before the fact, I don't leave the "responsibility" of these things or discussing these things to them. One being my deafness and the adjustments I need made in order to communicate with me, and what they can expect me to be able to do (lip read if I can see them) and what they can't expect of me (to be able to hear commands from behind, etc).
Another is safewords...I believe in them, and will not play with someone that won't respect that nor will I enter a relationship with someone that doesn't at least agree to respect my safewords on some level bar the mutual agreement to get rid of the safeword, and the third is aftercare. I need to know their feelings on aftercare and have a basic understanding of what each other thinks of aftercare.
In the situation I shared a few posts up, I did all three of these things, and he choose to ignore and not respect two of them (my safeword, and the need of aftercare). Out of ignorance or a bad case of the assholes, I don't know. However, if I had not discussed these things with him and had not had reason to believe he would respect them, then I had no business playing with him nor any business solely "blaming" him for what occured, to a point.
In another essay I wrote on "SSC" play for newbies, I said this....I think it sums up my opinion on the matter well,
Never assume your partner knows how you feel, what you think, or what you want. Body language can be extremely misleading, and last I checked, our feelings were not closed captioned across our foreheads. Communication is the key to consensuality.
If I ask my partner how much aftercare they will give after a scene and they answer "I don't know", then it is my choice whether I want to risk and play with them or not. At least they are honest about it
