Some people...

[M_K_Babalon]

Sounds like teenager sex.

Pfft. Not this one.

 

[Plathfan]

As much as I agree with it, I think that's a slightly different aspect of this phenomenon. There are certainly plenty of people who act in such a way, especially on social networks, but such behavior is likely prompted by the "likes" and the praise they expect from the audience. There is an obvious incentive to act like that in order to feel like a part of some group. I call it "jumping on the bandwagon." Such behavior is omnipresent in political debates on social networks.

LC's example, and the one I mentioned, are different because there was no audience at all but just a situation where you can behave any way you want without consequences, and then you choose to behave like an asshole because deep down, that's who you are. If you could get away with it, you would be doing it in real life too.

What I wanted to say is that while both are sad examples of human behavior, they are somewhat different.

The problem with calling someone an asshole or using other derogatory terms is that we only hear one side of the story.

For example, it’s hard to believe that the OP would agree to write four fight scenes for some random guy, just for credit, without even reviewing their writing first.

It’s convenient--not to say childish--to view the world in black and white, with good guys and bad guys, and to see yourself as one of the good ones. I’ve seen people act terribly here, without any self-awareness or shame. I won’t mention recent examples, including yours.

Is anyone here volunteering in the oncology ward, or distributing food to the needy? Decent people would rather spend their time helping others than whining online. There’s not a single person here who is saintly or even decent (if there were, you’d probably chase them away quickly). I wouldn’t be here if there were.

Us? unfriendly?

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I highly doubt they'd ask me, but good to know. Honestly... if they did, knowing it was going to market, I'd want money and reconition. Fuck that. Even ghost writers get paid.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The problem with calling someone an asshole or using other derogatory terms is that we only hear one side of the story.
For example, it’s hard to believe that the OP would agree to write four fight scenes for some random guy, just for credit, without even reviewing their writing first.

There is no "story" here as LC didn't actually name anyone. There is no accusing or shaming since we have no idea who he's talking about. I understood that he only wanted to vent or maybe simply speak about this phenomenon in general using this example.

It’s convenient--not to say childish--to view the world in black and white, with good guys and bad guys, and to see yourself as one of the good ones. I’ve seen people act terribly here, without any self-awareness or shame. I won’t mention recent examples, including yours.

Nobody here painted anything in black and white. There are always unclear cases of someone being an asshole or not, but judging by LC's words, this one seems clear-cut to me. I of course have no other sources or data to confirm his words but it doesn't matter as once again, no one is being named and we are speaking about the phenomenon in general rather than any specific example that includes actual names, even these fake ones.
Also, please name that case where I was being an asshole. You have this mentality to throw around accusations without substantiating them, and since, unlike the OP, you actually accused me of acting like an asshole, you should provide some proof for a change.

Is anyone here volunteering in the oncology ward, or distributing food to the needy? Decent people would rather spend their time helping others than whining online.

Yeah, who is being childish now?

 

[lovecraft68]

The problem with calling someone an asshole or using other derogatory terms is that we only hear one side of the story.

For example, it’s hard to believe that the OP would agree to write four fight scenes for some random guy, just for credit, without even reviewing their writing first.

I've written with and for others before, sometimes for pay, sometimes just to help out authors I'm friendly with. Meanwhile you write and publish nothing.
Just saying.

It’s convenient--not to say childish--to view the world in black and white, with good guys and bad guys, and to see yourself as one of the good ones. I’ve seen people act terribly here, without any self-awareness or shame. I won’t mention recent examples, including yours.

This is why in my response to PSG I said I won't name the person because we've had instances worse than this and nothing was ever done, so why bother other than playing into cancel culture. This post is meant as a PSA be careful of doing something for someone you don't have experience with.

Is anyone here volunteering in the oncology ward, or distributing food to the needy? Decent people would rather spend their time helping others than whining online. There’s not a single person here who is saintly or even decent (if there were, you’d probably chase them away quickly). I wouldn’t be here if there were.

Us? unfriendly?

I think the question everyone would like answered here is what exactly is it that you do besides run your mouth?

 

[SimonDoom]

There is no "story" here as LC didn't actually name anyone. There is no accusing or shaming since we have no idea who he's talking about. I understood that he only wanted to vent or maybe simply speak about this phenomenon in general using this example.

Nobody here painted anything in black and white. There are always unclear cases of someone being an asshole or not, but judging by LC's words, this one seems clear-cut to me. I of course have no other sources or data to confirm his words but it doesn't matter as once again, no one is being named and we are speaking about the phenomenon in general rather than any specific example that includes actual names, even these fake ones.
Also, please name that case where I was being an asshole. You have this mentality to throw around accusations without substantiating them, and since, unlike the OP, you actually accused me of acting like an asshole, you should provide some proof for a change.


Yeah, who is being childish now?

Agreed. LC wasn't whining at all. Seems like he gave this person every opportunity to act in a decent way, and the person didn't. It's a good cautionary tale for everyone to hear.

 

[Bazzle]

We need a space as authors to vent?

 

[Voboy]

There's nothing wrong with writing a fight scene without writing a fight scene.

I think it was "Dr. No" where James Bond returns to duty after being in the hospital for awhile. M makes veiled references to the fight that landed him there, and concludes that Bond's gun is too underpowered. The exchange is enhanced because we don't see the fight they're talking about; we can use our imagination.

My SF series included lots of space combat. Only about three or four battles received a blow-by-blow description. The reader sees the lead-up and then comes back in at the end, with the characters making allusions to their injuries, and it comes across just fine on the page.

But yes, LC, you were more polite than I would have been. I probably would have just ignored him.

 

[MrHereWriting]

The goodness in me balances out the asshole in me, making me . . . normal.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

There's no work to copy paste. There's nothing here of mine that would fit his exact needs, and I was clued in before I did anything, and TBH even without that revelation I wasn't doing it for no pay or credit anyway. I suppose they weren't too bright in the end by refusing anything and turning me off before the other shoe dropped.

True, I know. My point was that this guy;s behavior is far worse than the normal copy/steal that goes on around here, and for that, I'd out the hell out of him. That's me.

 

[lovecraft68]

True, I know. My point was that this guy;s behavior is far worse than the normal copy/steal that goes on around here, and for that, I'd out the hell out of him. That's me.

It is you. Some years ago it might have been me. But after what I've seen people get away with on here, I don't think this forum as a whole has the right to lynch mob someone for doing something wrong when they have enabled far worse.

I meant this post as a general warning of these are the types that are out there. Watch for them.

 

[MillieDynamite]

If I write for someone, I get either money or credit. This isn't a mercenary stance. We do not write strictly for pleasure. If we did, we'd keep journals, diaries, or secret notebooks.

 

[SimonDoom]

This thread is going to be closed if it keeps being about poking the obvious bear in the cave. I'd suggest reorienting it back to Lovecraft's original post, which raises a perfectly legitimate issue.

You learn from interacting with people, sometimes at the cost of time and headache, and it's a service if we can give others a heads up to avoid the cost if possible.

Several years ago I volunteered to proofread another author's story draft, and it was the most sloppily written thing I've ever seen. Bad beyond imagining. I don't think it had a single decently written sentence. I spent an enormous amount of time proofing and editing it and giving it back to the author. When the author published it, he didn't mention me or give me any credit. This was an author whose stories have done very well, too. I was pissed. I will never again proof or edit someone else's story unless they have first written the best possible work they can and done their own careful proof and edit. Lesson learned. Don't get taken advantage of.

 

[StillStunned]

Several years ago I volunteered to proofread another author's story draft, and it was the most sloppily written thing I've ever seen. Bad beyond imagining. I don't think it had a single decently written sentence. I spent an enormous amount of time proofing and editing it and giving it back to the author. When the author published it, he didn't mention me or give me any credit. This was an author whose stories have done very well, too. I was pissed. I will never again proof or edit someone else's story unless they have first written the best possible work they can and done their own careful proof and edit. Lesson learned. Don't get taken advantage of.

A few times I've broken my own rule of not editing here on Lit, and each time I've ended up kicking myself. It's as if writers reckon that their volunteer editor is going to fix it anyway, so why should they bother?

I'm used to it from paying clients, but if someone's giving their time and effort for free - and trust me, editing takes a great deal of both - the least you can do is your very best.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'm used to it from paying clients, but if someone's giving their time and effort for free - and trust me, editing takes a great deal of both - the least you can do is your very best.

Sorry about that. (blush) : P

 

[StillStunned]

Sorry about that. (blush) : P

That's alright, I wasn't thinking of your chapter. I was referring to some stories where I've done the full edit/proofread. Red mark-up in virtually every sentence and comments in every paragraph.

 

[lovecraft68]

A few times I've broken my own rule of not editing here on Lit, and each time I've ended up kicking myself. It's as if writers reckon that their volunteer editor is going to fix it anyway, so why should they bother?

I'm used to it from paying clients, but if someone's giving their time and effort for free - and trust me, editing takes a great deal of both - the least you can do is your very best.

I've had people ask me to edit for them and the first response in my mind is "Have you seen my work?" I don't use an editor here and although improved, my grammar can be a bit shoddy.

Beta read and give an opinion I'll do from time to time, but I'm not sadistic enough to edit for someone.

 

[StillStunned]

Beta read and give an opinion I'll do from time to time, but I'm not sadistic enough to edit for someone.

Editors aren't sadists. If anything, they're masochists.

 

[intim8]

The internet doesn't make people different, it makes them more themselves.

Money and alcohol don't change one's character, they reveal it. Same for the internet.

 

[yowser]

Money and alcohol don't change one's character, they reveal it. Same for the internet.

For drink in reality doth not reverse nature or create passions in men which did not exist in them before. It takes away the guard of reason and consequently forces us to produce those symptoms which many when sober have art enough to conceal.

Henry Fielding, The History of Tom Jones

 

[NoTalentHack]

Last weekend I received an e-mail from a lit author-no one from here-who asked me if I could help them with a story. What they have is a novel length femme fatale style piece, but what they don't have are any fight sequences. They can write plot, they can write the erotic scenes, dialogue etc, but according to them they can't write a fight scene to save their life, and they need four, so they are writing this story and skipping those scenes and are just about done.

Would I be willing to write the fight scenes?

My first reply was is this a commission and they're offering to pay me for the work?

Answer was no, they really couldn't afford anything.

Okay, fine. I'm not some kind of mercenary, so my next reply was I'd consider it but if I do it I want to be credited in an author's note.

They came back with they didn't want people to know anyone helped with this, they were hoping I would 'ghost write'

I may not be a mercenary, but I'm not into spending any of my limited time for not even an acknowledgement, so although turned off, I sent back another reply that I either wanted payment of credit, but I'm not doing it to just make them look like they can write something they can't.

They said they'd get back to me and then it got even better when a former lit author I remained friendly with reached out to ask me if I'd heard from this person because they'd been helping them beta read and had recommened me to them to ask about the action scenes. I said yes and explained the situation which was when they dropped the bomb on me that the person was lying to me about it being for lit, they were planning on putting this on SW and Amazon and where else they could and hoping to make some money on it.

Since that revelation the person beta reading told them they'd no longer help them because they'd lied to me, and I shot them an e-mail telling them to forget it and they then sent me a nasty gram calling me a slew of crappy names they could find better than me on fiverr.

I resisted the urge to tell them people on Fiverr charge and often more than the "five" that the site is named for, but fuck it.

The nerve of people is still capable of surprising me.

Just a head's up that if anyone-unless its someone you know well-asks you for something, just make sure you know the exact score so to speak.

Man, the level of entitlement there. I wish I was surprised, but it seems like it's becoming more and more the norm.

 

[NoTalentHack]

The weird thing to me is, what about a fight scene is so difficult to write? In reality, a fight is over in twenty seconds or less. Especially if someone has any sort of training. Only Hollywood turns every fight into a John Wick battle royale.
Surely that would be easier to write than a sex scene?

I'd argue that it's still harder, if only because there's a lot of shorthand you can use when describing sex on a sex story site. If I write "he fucked her doggystyle," while it may not be very evocative, is descriptive enough that people would know what I meant. If I wrote, "she launched a back knuckle strike at him," a lot of people aren't going to know what that is. I'd need to describe it in a way that is both mechanically correct and descriptive, while not flooding the reader with too much detail.

Worse, if I did try to use something like "back knuckle," a lot of readers would think it was something different than it is, because "backhand" is in the common parlance, but a back knuckle strike is a very different beast. One is a (usually) open-handed slap with the back of the hand, often wildly carried through as a show of disdain; a "pimp slap," in the common parlance. The other is a controlled snap of the hand, out from (usually) the chest and back, more like a jab in its usage than anything else. It's a very controlled motion compared to a backhand.

Backhand:

Back knuckle:

I get the concern, especially if one isn't familiar with martial arts/fisticuffs. Or, alternately, if one were overly familiar with them, because of the backhand/back knuckle issue. I'm not as accomplished as Lovecraft in the martial arts, but I do have a background in it, and I still worry about that when writing fight scenes.

That still doesn't excuse someone from being an entitled jackass, though.

 

[Britva415]

If I write "he fucked her doggystyle," while it may not be very evocative, is descriptive enough that people would know what I meant. If I wrote, "she launched a back knuckle strike at him," a lot of people aren't going to know what that is.

Now I do.

Apparently it's a term for doggystyle?

 

[Bramblethorn]

Several years ago I volunteered to proofread another author's story draft, and it was the most sloppily written thing I've ever seen. Bad beyond imagining. I don't think it had a single decently written sentence. I spent an enormous amount of time proofing and editing it and giving it back to the author. When the author published it, he didn't mention me or give me any credit. This was an author whose stories have done very well, too. I was pissed. I will never again proof or edit someone else's story unless they have first written the best possible work they can and done their own careful proof and edit. Lesson learned. Don't get taken advantage of.

I agree with most of this, and I'd add - the more you polish a story before giving it to an editor, the more benefit you'll get from an editor. The more mental bandwidth I have to use in catching and fixing basic spelling/grammar/punctuation mistakes, the less I have left over for the deeper stuff like characterisation.

I would say that if being publicly credited is important to you, it's worth making that expectation clear up front because there are conflicting norms on this. In the professional world, it's unusual for an editor to be credited - I've edited roughly fifty books and only one of them that I know of has credited me. (Instead, they give me money, which is a very adequate substitute, as well as verbal thanks.)

Part of the reason for this is that the editor may not agree with the version that gets published. I remember one time here where I pointed out a significant error, the author opted not to fix it, and then readers complained about that error; having one's name on a story like that is not necessarily a good thing, not when it gives the impression that one missed something obvious. Similar things happen in professional publishing.

In amateur writing, it's more commonly expected that the editor will be acknowledged, because that acknowledgement is often the only "payment" they get. But not all authors take that expectation as read, so both authors and editors should discuss this if it matters to them rather than assume the other party is working on the same expectations.

 

[SimonDoom]

I agree with most of this, and I'd add - the more you polish a story before giving it to an editor, the more benefit you'll get from an editor. The more mental bandwidth I have to use in catching and fixing basic spelling/grammar/punctuation mistakes, the less I have left over for the deeper stuff like characterisation.

I would say that if being publicly credited is important to you, it's worth making that expectation clear up front because there are conflicting norms on this. In the professional world, it's unusual for an editor to be credited - I've edited roughly fifty books and only one of them that I know of has credited me. (Instead, they give me money, which is a very adequate substitute, as well as verbal thanks.)

Part of the reason for this is that the editor may not agree with the version that gets published. I remember one time here where I pointed out a significant error, the author opted not to fix it, and then readers complained about that error; having one's name on a story like that is not necessarily a good thing, not when it gives the impression that one missed something obvious. Similar things happen in professional publishing.

In amateur writing, it's more commonly expected that the editor will be acknowledged, because that acknowledgement is often the only "payment" they get. But not all authors take that expectation as read, so both authors and editors should discuss this if it matters to them rather than assume the other party is working on the same expectations.

This was a while ago, and I don't recall if the author and I specifically discussed whether I'd get credit. But my recollection is that this author DID give credit to other editors he'd worked with, and in this case the draft he gave me was so unbelievably and atrociously unreadable, and took so much work by me, that I figured he would give me credit, too.

It's not so much that I felt the author did a bad thing as that I felt it was a waste of my time. I vowed for the sake of my own time that I would never edit a draft that bad again. I recommend to anyone else thinking about doing it that you should first insist that the author give you their best draft and only THEN work on it. That seems fair to me.