Spectrum of Infidelity/Cheating?

[silverwhisper]

i have a problem with this too. sorry, nothing personal.

that's fine: neither am i interpreting it personally. :>

putting aside platonic displays of affection, the quoted statement is mistakenly based on two things. first, the belief that if the kiss in question is an emotional connection, then you have breached your relationship; otherwise you haven't. second, that it is possible to have sex without an emotional connection, therefore without breaching the relationship. a fundamental flaw here is that the quote above has removed the context of trust and commitment in a relationship. what's at issue here is not, "do i consider a kiss/sex cheating?", but is "do either i or my SO consider this cheating?". the boundaries of the relationship are not defined by one person. if you believe that it's not cheating and you believe that kissing and/or sex will never lead to a situation that *is* cheating, then you need to find someone who shares your philosophy. at least show some respect and courtesy for your SO and let them choose to move on or not, as they see fit.

i believe i explained in the follow-up post, where i responded to erika's question, that my wife & i are on the same page on this matter but hey, people miss thing from time to time: it happens. i fully agree w/ you that the boundaries of acceptable/unacceptable are created jointly, rather than unilaterally.

if the kiss has no emotional connection, then what's the point of the kiss? it's to sexually excite your lover. to bring about a psychological and physiological change that will both make her more receptive to having sex with you and her sexual response exites you. that's an intimate connection. shivers, cries, moans, and orgasms are a shared experience of great sex on many different levels. if you are a considerate lover and want your sexual partner to have a great time, then you are building an intimate connection with that person. that's a powerful connection, and as intimate as any you'll ever experience, just shorter.

i subscribe to the philosophy that sex is a form of communication. if you accept that philosophy, you accept that it's a medium. however, i disagree w/ marshall macluhan's observation that the message is the medium in this case. :>

most of the posts here appear to be making the point that 'cheating' is defined by the intimacy of the experience. i suppose that i am making an argument that illicit kisses, swinging, fuck buddies, etc are about temporary intimate connections. i don't think that how long the connection lasts is an issue.

i believe there's a spectrum of possible forms of intimacy, personally. after all, i've had sex w/ someone but can't say that the experience was particularly intimate in the sense of getting to know her. by contrast, i've had some very intimate conversations in which i drew the full measure of a person. i'd definitely say the latter was by far more intimate. YMMV.

ed

 

[pplwatching]

Okay, in reading this post I see that it's long and a bit preachy. Too bad. It's how I feel. Pardon my general purpose use of the word "you" here. I'm not pointing at a specific person, it is just easier to write.

There are a few issues buried in all of these replies. First is the meaning of the word "forgive". I appears to me that some of us are differentiating between forgiveness and choosing to continue a relationship with someone has chosen to ignore their commitment to us. I can forgive just about anything because that's part of my nature. Forgiveness is an act that frees me to move on with my life, because not to forgive is to burden myself. In contrast, I will not continue a relationship with someone who has intentionally chosen to disregard both my feelings and our commitment to our marriage.

I'm having a really hard time with the concept of "my wife and I have discussed this". No matter how you choose to spin the conversation, it fundamentally boils down to, "There will be a time when I will choose to disregard my commitment to you and be intimate with another person". While it's great that you are talking with your spouse, all that you have really accomplished is to negotiate "wiggle room" for an offense that violates every principle of your commitment to each other. Saying, "you will not be able to meet my emotional or physical needs in our relationship" is just blaming the other person for your future infildelity. You are simply saying "I want you to look the other way when I break our commitment so I am willing to look the other way if you do."

If you want an open marriage then say so, but at least be honest about it. You have every right to demand fidelity from your spouse. You can negotiate away as much of that right as you want, but in my marriage this is non negotiable. Frankly, I'd be extremely worried if my wife said, "I'd look the other way for one offense". First, it tells me that she has no confidence in my ability to respect her and our marriage during the hard times. Second, it tells me that she has no confidence in her ability to respect our marriage during the hard times. Third, it tells me that she does not hold our commitment in high regard, and that she conceeds that there are times and circumstances when "things happen". We have lost the battle before it has even begun.

I chose to marry a woman who shares my values and my commitment to our relationship. In accepting her gift of her mind, spirit, and body I took on a responsibility to be a loving caretaker of that gift. She did not marry me to "see how it goes", she gave me everything that she is with blind trust that I would not abuse her gift. Anything that makes her withdraw that gift, to hold back that little bit of herself because "we both agree that things happen", is just plain wrong. Anyone whos followed my posts over time knows that sex has been a major issue in my marriage. I can say with absolute certainty that I will not be unfaithful; not because I know that the price of infidelity is divorce, but because the price is that the act would be devastating to my wife. To quote Clint Eastwoon, "It's a hell of a thing killing a man. You take away everything they are, and everything they'll ever be." Infidelity would be a blight on everything that my wife and I have built together.

If either of us were to choose to kiss, have sex, whatever, then we are in effect saying that "I know that choosing to go through with this means that you will be devestated, but this is what I want". I choose to be faithful, and I don't look for advance absolution for a greivous offense against my marriage and my wife. Nor do I look to "soften the blow" if something were to happen. I knew her expectations of me when I married her. She knew my expectations of her. I know that she will not do anything that is not in my best interest, and I take comfort in that. Our commitment is immutable.

 

[pplwatching]

i believe i explained in the follow-up post, where i responded to erika's question, that my wife & i are on the same page on this matter ... i subscribe to the philosophy that sex is a form of communication. if you accept that philosophy, you accept that it's a medium. however, i disagree w/ marshall macluhan's observation that the message is the medium in this case. :> ... i believe there's a spectrum of possible forms of intimacy, personally. after all, i've had sex w/ someone but can't say that the experience was particularly intimate in the sense of getting to know her. by contrast, i've had some very intimate conversations in which i drew the full measure of a person. i'd definitely say the latter was by far more intimate. YMMV.

This is both splitting hairs and irrelevant to the issue of violating the trust and commitment of your partner. It appears that you and your partner have agreed that sexual intimacy with another person is not a violation of trust or commitment. If that's not what you've agreed to, then the inverse is that sexual intimacy is a violation of trust and commitment, but that you're willing to look the other way. That is a recipe for disaster. I believe that this is a telling sign of the depth of your commitment to each other. You obviolsy don't agree, but differing viewpoints are what's great about these forums.

I agree that sex is a form of communication, but it's a mistake to think that it's not a form of intimate communication. If all you get out of it is an orgasm, then why not just masturbate.

 

[silverwhisper]

this is both splitting hairs and irrelevant to the issue of violating the trust and commitment of your partner. it appears that you and your partner have agreed that sexual intimacy with another person is not a violation of trust or commitment. if that's not what you've agreed to, then the inverse is that sexual intimacy is a violation of trust and commitment, but that you're willing to look the other way.

i think that you're reading a bit more into my comments than is entirely warranted. i believe that intimacy, regardless of sexual content, is a larger matter. sex means many things to different people and i believe that's been illustrated in the quotation above.

i agree that sex is a form of communication, but it's a mistake to think that it's not a form of intimate communication. if all you get out of it is an orgasm, then why not just masturbate.

again, i think that there are degrees of intimacy. and i don't believe i ever advocated having sex without intimacy: all i said was that i've experienced it.

ed

 

[boston_bbw]

Interesting question. My "friend with benefits" happens to be in an open marriage and a swinger, so not a heck of a lot is off limits with him. I on the other hand find sex with a married man (open or swinger included) something I just can't do. Yet I don't seem to have a problem with lots of things except sex with him. I get him off by cyber and in person, oral is fine, and we can rent a movie and lay around for hours just cuddling. We have discussed that there are feelings involved neither of us expected, yet neither of us are ready to say "ok this isn't working". He feels bad he can never give me everything I want (husband, kids, etc) since he already has that and is happy. At times I am horrified I ever let myself get into such a relationship and basically allow myself to be "2nd fiddle". Other times I can't imagine not having him in my life and I'll take what I can get. My situation now goes againt how I was raised and what I believed was in good tase until just a few years ago. Hmm.. ok now I am more confused then ever...lol

 

[SweetErika]

Okay, in reading this post I see that it's long and a bit preachy. Too bad. It's how I feel. Pardon my general purpose use of the word "you" here. I'm not pointing at a specific person, it is just easier to write.

There are a few issues buried in all of these replies. First is the meaning of the word "forgive". I appears to me that some of us are differentiating between forgiveness and choosing to continue a relationship with someone has chosen to ignore their commitment to us. I can forgive just about anything because that's part of my nature. Forgiveness is an act that frees me to move on with my life, because not to forgive is to burden myself. In contrast, I will not continue a relationship with someone who has intentionally chosen to disregard both my feelings and our commitment to our marriage.

But that's just it I think you either decide to not forgive and quit the relationship, not forgive and stay, or forgive and stay together and try to repair the relationship and trust. I can't be positive how I'd react, but if we've had many good years of marriage before the cheating, I'd probably want to try to forgive and move forward with the relationship. If that didn't work, I would at least be able to move on knowing we tried.

I'm having a really hard time with the concept of "my wife and I have discussed this". No matter how you choose to spin the conversation, it fundamentally boils down to, "There will be a time when I will choose to disregard my commitment to you and be intimate with another person". While it's great that you are talking with your spouse, all that you have really accomplished is to negotiate "wiggle room" for an offense that violates every principle of your commitment to each other. Saying, "you will not be able to meet my emotional or physical needs in our relationship" is just blaming the other person for your future infildelity. You are simply saying "I want you to look the other way when I break our commitment so I am willing to look the other way if you do."

If you want an open marriage then say so, but at least be honest about it. You have every right to demand fidelity from your spouse. You can negotiate away as much of that right as you want, but in my marriage this is non negotiable. Frankly, I'd be extremely worried if my wife said, "I'd look the other way for one offense". First, it tells me that she has no confidence in my ability to respect her and our marriage during the hard times. Second, it tells me that she has no confidence in her ability to respect our marriage during the hard times. Third, it tells me that she does not hold our commitment in high regard, and that she conceeds that there are times and circumstances when "things happen". We have lost the battle before it has even begun.

I see where you're coming from, but don't make a connection between discussing it and actually cheating. We discuss all sorts of scenarios that are highly unlikely, and that simply provides reassurance that we are able to see, plan for, and handle whatever may happen. I have every confidence we will be able to hold our commitment through the most difficult times by putting in our best effort, and it's comforting to talk about what we'll do if we ever get to the point where one or both of us are uncertain. I see it as preventative, not a cop out, opportunity to create excuses, or break our commitment.

 

[scottboa]

To me cheating is when you give your love to someone other then your SO. Its not about sex, its not about kissing either its about the feeling they have for that other person. I mean I know some people who are swingers and they have lots of sex with lots of different people often in the same room. But they don't consider it cheating because they don't love the other people they are having sex with. But if you go out and start dating someone else that you have feelings for then thats cheating.

 

[pplwatching]

I see where you're coming from, but don't make a connection between discussing it and actually cheating. We discuss all sorts of scenarios that are highly unlikely, and that simply provides reassurance that we are able to see, plan for, and handle whatever may happen. I have every confidence we will be able to hold our commitment through the most difficult times by putting in our best effort, and it's comforting to talk about what we'll do if we ever get to the point where one or both of us are uncertain. I see it as preventative, not a cop out, opportunity to create excuses, or break our commitment.

There is a connection between discussing it and having it happen. Down the road when times are tough, or there's that really hot chick coming on to me (dare to dream, eh?), if somewhere in my subconcious is that conversation where my wife said "I could forgive one offense ..." I may be more likely to cave in if my marriage isn't meeting my needs. If the conversation was, "I would be destroyed, and I know that's not the kind of person that you are. Please come talk to me if/when it happens." then I am more likely to take her feelings into account and hold myself to a higher standard. Just my $.02 -- but I feel that it's the power of positive thinking.

 

[silverwhisper]

just b/c you think a thing doesn't necessarily predispose you to do it.

ed

 

[phoenix1224]

...I mean I know some people who are swingers and they have lots of sex with lots of different people often in the same room. But they don't consider it cheating because they don't love the other people they are having sex with...

Actually, they don't consider it cheating because it occurs with their partner's complete knowledge and consent.

Cheating is when it happens WITHOUT your partner's complete knowledge and consent.

 

[SweetErika]

There is a connection between discussing it and having it happen. Down the road when times are tough, or there's that really hot chick coming on to me (dare to dream, eh?), if somewhere in my subconcious is that conversation where my wife said "I could forgive one offense ..." I may be more likely to cave in if my marriage isn't meeting my needs. If the conversation was, "I would be destroyed, and I know that's not the kind of person that you are. Please come talk to me if/when it happens." then I am more likely to take her feelings into account and hold myself to a higher standard. Just my $.02 -- but I feel that it's the power of positive thinking.

Just to clarify, "I would be destroyed, and I know that's not the kind of person that you are. Please come talk to me if/when it happens." has certainly been the primary focus of our conversations, and that's why I feel it's a preventative measure. I know if I was tempted, I'd go straight to my husband so we could attempt to repair what was wrong or work something else out (e.g. if we had really tried and reached an impasse, we may agree going outside the marriage would be a reasonable option if we wanted to stay together).

We both feel we probably could forgive one offense, but that's not certain or a free pass to cheat.