Story Discussion: March 12, 2006. "Poly Polly" by Penelope Street.

[Rumple Foreskin]

Cute. Real Cute.

Are you just being nice about the sex being hot? I ask because all of the men that read the piece have had an adverse reaction to Polly, but half of them still indicated they'd want to, uh, 'meet' her anyway, which left me shaking my head a bit.

RF: Am I just being nice? Nope. The sex scene was well done. As for guys wanting to "meet" Polly but not hang out with her, remember, for guys the sex drive tends to be very physical. It's the way nature wired us.

--

Interesting. The when and where I left unsaid because I didn't think they mattered. Your suggestion about naming the movie is a good one, that could establish the when of it. I like letting the reader learn about the relationship between the sisters as the series progresses. Does the reader need to know more at this point than there is a rivalry, at least from Polly's side?

RF: No single "W" is indispensible. However, the lack of so many may make it hard for readers to care about the protag. In a novel, you'd have time to "fill in the blanks." And while this is intended to be the first in a series of short stories, this first one must stand alone and hook the reader good and hard.

--

Why Polly starts telling her story is an excellent question. Is there not enough for the reader to deduce the reason?

RF: IMHO, no. Maybe it's just my style or skill, but I've little faith in my ability to insure readers deduce things the way I want them to.

--

This seems to be the prevailing masculine reaction. I'm still wondering if the underlying reason isn't something Helene touched on earlier.

RF: Could be. But whatever the reason, it could still cost you roughly half your readership.

--

I feel guilty; you certainly didn't need to go to that length for this piece. Good point about the semi-colons; if I ever post the story, I'll change them all to periods. I still like Polly's overused exclamation points; do they not say something about her?

RF: They do say something about her. However, if readers begins to notice the use, it could distract 'em from the story. I'd suggest using a lot "Oh, yes!!!!" but do so fewer times.

--

Could you please clarify what you mean by "DASH NOT HYPHEN"?

RF: This was probably a typo, but at some point there was something along the lines of "...I wanted it- right now."

The way I've been learnt, a single horizontal stroke " - " is a hyphen. In the example I used, a dash, a double horizontal stroke " -- " with no space between the it and the words it separates, "...I wanted it--right now," would be preferable. MS Word can be set up to automatically or manually turn " -- " into a solid dash.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Helene's comments just made me think of something: I don't think it's Polly's character that bothers me as much as her blatant crudeness. The two aren't the same, and I wonder if her crudeness might get in the way of appreciating and accepting her character. She really seems like someone who might just wipe her ass on the drapes for the hell of it, and that's what turns me so completely off and makes me dislike her.

I don't know how important that crudeness is to her character, but my instinct is that if you could tone down that in-your-face trashiness without losing her frankness, you'd have a pretty fascinating character I might want to read about. As she is, she's just too ugly for me.

 

[sincerely_helene]

I'm more interested in exposing Polly's psychology, though I tried to do both. I knew it would be a challenge, but that's what made it fun to try, even if it didn't quite work.


I think you did a great job of explaining, which leads to a side question- if I decide to abandon idea of a series, is there an easy way to turn this scene into a fun little romp and leave it at that?


Thanks. If I ever decide to continue Polly's story, I'll re-read this thread and remember to keep an eye out for repitition.


*gag* Don't sell yourself short as an author or reviewer.

Under most circumstances I would have been bothered by the exclamation points too, but I agree with Penny that it some how fits in well with Polly's persona. She is kind of like a walking, talking comic strip!!! (That is a compliment, by the way.)

I have the same issue with the pyschology factor in my writing, Penelope. At least you try to include some sort of encounter-- my characters take two chapters to even breath on each other and even still never end up fucking. I haven't decided yet if I'm a big prude or if just get off too much on all the emotional foreplay to bother going all the way.

I would be a little dissapointed if you didn't continue the series because I'm sincerely interested in understanding Polly and watching her evolve, but if you really wanted to make it into a simple piece of (yawn) stroke there are a couple ways you could go about it:
1) Gag Polly and post it in the BDSM section (just kidding.)
2) Cut off a lot of the introduction, get rid of her sister (unless she is going to join in, that is,) nix all the little stories that have to do with frog shootin' and such, and if you do decide to leave in some of the description at the beggining try not to work so hard on making sure the audience views her in a negative light. She can still have flaws, but if you spend too much time focusing on them as if they should be considered "icky," it will lessen the appeal to see her in action.
3) Consider if her speech hieghtens or subtracts from the encounter. Some people may find the accent cute and childlike, and some may find it annoying. Best to go with your own instincts here. Would you get off on it?

I really hope you don't go this route, though. It seems like it would be a real waste to see someone as unique and quirky as Polly go down the toilet.

Edit- By the way, I'm not sure why you don't just continue with the series using some of the suggestions others have given instead of abandoning the project all together. The potential is certainly there.

 

[sincerely_helene]

She really seems like someone who might just wipe her ass on the drapes for the hell of it,

Bahahahahaha!!!

Make mental note of that for the second installment, Penny!

 

[Penelope Street]

I really hope you don't go this route, though. It seems like it would be a real waste to see someone as unique and quirky as Polly go down the toilet.

Edit- By the way, I'm not sure why you don't just continue with the series using some of the suggestions others have given instead of abandoning the project all together. The potential is certainly there.

Thank you. It's not so much that I don't want to continue Polly's story as it is I've other stories that call to me. *sigh* Too many ideas and too little time.

 

[Penelope Street]

IMHO, no.

Thanks for sharing an opinion that never need be humble.

 

[Penelope Street]

Helene's comments just made me think of something: I don't think it's Polly's character that bothers me as much as her blatant crudeness. The two aren't the same, and I wonder if her crudeness might get in the way of appreciating and accepting her character. She really seems like someone who might just wipe her ass on the drapes for the hell of it, and that's what turns me so completely off and makes me dislike her.

I don't know how important that crudeness is to her character, but my instinct is that if you could tone down that in-your-face trashiness without losing her frankness, you'd have a pretty fascinating character I might want to read about. As she is, she's just too ugly for me.

You know, I never pictured Polly grinning and reaching for the drapes. lol. When is Polly at her crudest? I wonder if this might be what Owlwhisper meant:

Maybe the reactions are because Polly comes across as too strident...

 

[Owlwhisper]

.....

 

[Penelope Street]

I didn't see her as that crude, but she was very in-your-face. If the suggestion is that she might benefit from being toned down a bit, I agree. If you were to mix in other characters sooner, they might dilute her down to drinkability without changing her flavor.

Maybe changing Polly's flavor is the way to go. Would it have to be a major change? I don't suppose you recall at what point in the story you felt that first toe start to squirm toward the exit?

 

[Owlwhisper]

.....

 

[Penelope Street]

Not Mary. Polly. Got it?

Yeah, she's pushing sassy into arrogant there, isn't she? Would this work better:
Not Mary. I can't stand it when people call me Mary.

O' course I don't use big words like them no how. My sister does. Big words like them is always bullshit anyhow.

I'm not sure I understand how she's offending the reader as if they are a learner. True, Polly's kinda ranting about intellectuals in general and her sister in particular, but my intention is to reveal she's insecure about her own intellectual shortcomings. If there another way to read it that I'm not seeing?

 

[Owlwhisper]

.....

 

[Penelope Street]

It's her anti-intellectual attitude that I was referring to.

Interesting. To me that particular slam is mild compared to what Polly has to say about men.

 

[neonlyte]

Hello Penny,

I'm simply going to comment on my immediate reaction to Poly Polly - others have covered much of the detail.

I found this narrative surprisingly intimate; I read PP's brusque commentary of her exploits as a foil, almost a wrapper to conceal another character. That character offers glimpses of herself, she has a certain sensitivity and awareness beyond the vocal projection of PP.

PP is not particularly pleasant, she is hard to like when in strident flow and softens that edge with what she believes to be her only weapon to hand - her body. I for one would be interested to see how she develops, should you so decide.

I've just read your ideas for developing PP as a series... I don't think I need to say any more

Good luck.

will.

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Will,

Great to see you drop by again! Thanks for giving my story a read. I'm pleased everyone seems to have read the character I intended to write, even though some readers were turned off by her. The big question that remains for me is whether I want to try and tone down her overt manbashing or just accept that the story will only be read by women and those few men with impeccable taste.

Polly is quite the challenge and I do hope to someday finish her story- but until I decide how to continue, she'll have to stay in my works-in-progress folder.

Thanks Bunches,
Penny

 

[CharleyH]

Hi!

Thanks for dropping by. The single-scene piece that follows is a little over five thousand words long and there aren't any real breaks, so if that's too long you can stop now. If you're still here, I hope you enjoy the read and the discussion. My plans, concerns, and questions follow in separate posts after the story.

Take Care,
Penny

Simply bumping and letting you know I love your writing, Penny and will attempt (no promises bella ) to read and post by Monday afternoon.

 

[angelicminx]

Hey Penny! I know I'm alot late with this, but...

First off let me say, I like Polly. I can identify with her. I've known people like her and I would like to see her "grow". I didn't get the same feeling for her that Dr. M got. I didn't feel that she was emotionless. I got the feeling that she had opinions, feelings and thoughts that were hidden from public view. She's bragging about her encounters with Charlie and that's the only thing important for "the public" to know. I expect her emotions to surface as "trust" is built with her listeners and she begins to grow as a person.

I like the method you have chosen to tell her story. She is, for me, an interesting character and I can see her development. I like your plans for her. I do think she is worthy of Lit and of her own series. I even like the fact that she's something of a "hillbilly red neck".

I thought the polyamorous comment was good. I'm not crazy about the lead in to the explanation, however. It seems to come from out of the blue. I found myself asking, "What other Poly?". My suggestion would be to say something about her sister calling her Poly Polly, since you have already referenced her mother calling her Polly when her birth name is Mary, and then go into the explanation. Leave in the part about having to look it up and why. I liked that. I also like the paragraph that follows.

Something I would like to see, in relation to polyamorous, is marrying someone who accepts that aspect of her, embraces it and fulfills those desires. If that isn't where you want to go with it I won't be disappointed, it's just a thought I had while reading the piece and a thought that struck again as I read SelenaKittyn's comments.

Quoting Penny-"This worried me too, but I forgot to ask about it. Thanks for bringing it up. Would this story work better with less "voice" from Polly?"

I don't think so, Penny. I think this story works because of Polly's "voice".


Overall I loved the story and the character, Penny. I'm always impressed with your writing style and this was no exception. I'm thrilled that you have more ideas than you have time for because it means we can expect great things for years to come. I'd hate to see Polly shelved for a long period of time, however. I think she deserves to see the light and deepen her internal waters.

~Minx

 

[Penelope Street]

Hey Minx! Great to see you again- thought you were maybe gone forever. Hope all is well with you?!

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on Polly. Sorry I didn't reply right away; my new morning job has my mind on things other than stories. After the discussion, I'm more determined than ever to continue Polly's tale, but I'm still struggling with how I should reveal her inner angst to those readers who just don't seem to get her. *sigh*

ETA: I really like your idea about how to lead into the whole polyamorous thing. Thanks!

 

[sincerely_helene]

I'm with Angelicminx. I never felt Polly was unemotional, but I can understand why others might percieve her that way. I struggle within my own writing because I feel like everyone should just read between the lines and "get it" like I do.

The problem with telling a story is emotions are tricky, and can't be hinted at in the same way as if we were actually physically seeing the expressions and vocal tone of the character. If others were to be watching "Polly the Movie," her very body language could reveal every emotion rooted within her no matter how hard she tried to hide it.

In writing though, we have nothing else to go on then what you tell us she is feeling or how you describe her actions, so if you portray her as indifferent or cold, many will just trust that was what you intended and take it quite literally. And, at the risk of sounding sexist, I would say that especially applies to your male audience who might not be as in tune with the complexities of a womans emotions.

Classic example: Man comes home from work and leans in to give his wife a kiss on the cheek. Her eyes are cast away from him, her body pulls away slightly, her teeth are clentched together, and she responds with a quick, mono-toned "hi." then proceeds to clean the kitchen.
HIM: "What's wrong?"
HER: "Nothing."
HIM: "Something's wrong."
HER: "Nope. I'm fine."
HIM: "Nothings wrong then?"
HER: "Yup. Everything's fine."
HIM: "Are you sure?"
HER ( in aggitated tone: ) "YEEESSS!"
HIM: OK then.
At this point he leaves the room thinking well, she obviously doesn't want to talk about it. He goes about his evening, watches a little TV, pays a few bills, etc, etc. By this time he has already forgotten about his awkward encounter with his wife.
Bedtime:
HIM: "G'night sweetheart."
HER: "So, why didn't you take out the garbage this morning like you promised?"
HIM: "What?"
HER: "Oh, like you couldn't tell I was upset. You just don't care about my feelings."
HIM: "Yes, I could tell, but when I asked what was wrong you kept saying 'nothing' and got mad at me so I left you alone."
HER: "That's because I assumed if you really cared about me you would have figured out why I was upset!"

Ok, that was a cheesy and vague example, but if you really loved me you'd understand what I was hinting at. Maybe some aren't "getting" Polly because she has a case of the "what'swronghoneynothings?"

It is easy enough to arrive at the conclusion that Polly is without depth or emotion because you drew her that way without any real explination. I thought at first maybe it would come out later that she had been made fun of a lot, or endured certain heartaches, or had a horrible past with her sister and family, just any sort of reasoning at all to make her closedness make sense.

I think all you really need to do to help people understand her better is offer up some "why's," and maybe as she is narrating from time to time make it clearer she is not as confident as she is trying make others believe she is. It needs to be more recognized that she is putting on a front, without taking away from her character. You are at an advantage because of your monologue style-- she can still come off as sexual, but when you are speaking directly to us as an audience it is ok to show some weakness.

We can know little things like maybe she was careful not to let Charlie see her smile too much because her teeth were made fun of a lot, or she could be a little reluctant to take off her shirt because her sister's boobs are much larger and that makes her feel inferior and self conscious. Just little subtle things that are spoken of or described along the way that offer insight into her past and present circumstances without going into too much detail, and she doesn't have to tell anyone else her little secrets except for us. Something (or things) has made her afraid to reveal her true self to people, and we have no real idea what that is yet. Until we understand what makes her tick, her growth throughout the series won't make any sense.

Like I said before, it's all about making a choice of what you as the author had hoped for Polly. You are going to risk sacrificing the sexual tone by going this route, and that may dissapoint a few fans who are reading purely for that reason. But, if it is like you told me-- that you wished to express something deeper-- I think it is well worth the risk and eagerly await the next installment...

 

[angelicminx]

Hey Minx! Great to see you again- thought you were maybe gone forever. Hope all is well with you?!

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on Polly. Sorry I didn't reply right away; my new morning job has my mind on things other than stories. After the discussion, I'm more determined than ever to continue Polly's tale, but I'm still struggling with how I should reveal her inner angst to those readers who just don't seem to get her. *sigh*

ETA: I really like your idea about how to lead into the whole polyamorous thing. Thanks!

I'm glad to be back, Penny. Going through alot of life changes at the moment. I hadn't had free access to Lit. The internet, yes, Lit, no. I've moved into an apartment with my fiance now though and I have MY computer back, so I should be around more often.

My fiance got a kick out of me while I was critiqueing your story. I felt more alive than I have in months and I couldn't stop grinning. I understand about the job, lol. I have one that is keeping me busy at the moment. (I prepare taxes, lol.) I'm hoping that he and I can get his business off the ground so I have more time to write.

Good luck with Polly! I know you can pull it off, and I can't wait to see what happens with her.

 

[Penelope Street]

... at the risk of sounding sexist, I would say that especially applies to your male audience who might not be as in tune with the complexities of a woman's emotions.

I've had similar thoughts. With the reactions to the story divided along gender lines, I don't feel we're being sexist; we just don't get what they don't get.

We can know little things like maybe she was careful not to let Charlie see her smile too much because her teeth were made fun of a lot, or she could be a little reluctant to take off her shirt because her sister's boobs are much larger and that makes her feel inferior and self conscious.

I really like those! Thank you.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Originally Posted by sincerely_helene
... at the risk of sounding sexist, I would say that especially applies to your male audience who might not be as in tune with the complexities of a woman's emotions.

Complexities? Honey, Polly has all the complexity of a beer coaster. Being horny and shallow may be human, but it's not complexity. It's easy to understand. So easy that it's kind of dull.

I just wonder how many people would be interested in a character of Polly's depth if she were a male? She'd be one of those typical crotch-grabbing male boors that we usually click away from. She brags about her orgasms just like they brag about their 14 inches. The idea of translating that character to another gender might be clever and have a certain vengeful appeal, but I don't see how you can call her complex.

She's a caricature, not a character, and that's the problem I have with her.

 

[sincerely_helene]

Originally Posted by sincerely_helene
... at the risk of sounding sexist, I would say that especially applies to your male audience who might not be as in tune with the complexities of a woman's emotions.

Complexities? Honey, Polly has all the complexity of a beer coaster. Being horny and shallow may be human, but it's not complexity. It's easy to understand. So easy that it's kind of dull.

I respectfully disagree. Women like Polly aren't born, they are made, and they aren't nearly as simple as others percieve them to be. Penelope has expressed her intent behind Polly a few times in this thread, and made it clear that there is a lot more to her than meets the eye. Her frusteration is in bringing that out in a manner which is more obvious/less offensive to the audience.

Unless I've been misunderstanding her comments this entire time, in which case "whups."

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I respectfully disagree. Women like Polly aren't born, they are made, and they aren't nearly as simple as others percieve them to be. Penelope has expressed her intent behind Polly a few times in this thread, and made it clear that there is a lot more to her than meets the eye. Her frusteration is in bringing that out in a manner which is more obvious/less offensive to the audience.

Unless I've been misunderstanding her comments this entire time, in which case "whups."

Well, I have to repectfully disagree with your disagreement. No disrespect to Penny, but if an author has to tell you outside the story that there's more to her character than what you see in the story, I'd say the author hasn't done a very good job of presenting a complex character.

But I'll take your word for it. Polly just doesn't work for me.She's one of the few females I've ever run across who actually repels me.

 

[Penelope Street]

Well, I have to respectfully disagree with your disagreement. No disrespect to Penny, but if an author has to tell you outside the story that there's more to her character than what you see in the story, I'd say the author hasn't done a very good job of presenting a complex character.

But I'll take your word for it. Polly just doesn't work for me. She's one of the few females I've ever run across who actually repels me.

Just when I though the discussion was winding down.

I confess to wearing a smile when I imagine men fleeing from Polly like she's some kind of demon. While I expect some will claim she's repugnant because she's dull, I'm not convinced anyone so simple could generate such strong reactions, both positive and negative. We've discussed this sort of thing with other stories, where it's possible for readers to interpret a character in remarkably different ways. Given Polly's narration, I understand how a reader can envision a pained and insecure character or one who is nothing more than shallow and sleazy. In that light, perhaps I didn't do a good enough job of showing half the readers the character I pictured, even though Polly seems to strike a chord with the other half.

I just wonder how many people would be interested in a character of Polly's depth if she were a male? She'd be one of those typical crotch-grabbing male boors that we usually click away from. She brags about her orgasms just like they brag about their 14 inches.

I think you're close to the heart of the matter here. Are crotch-grabbing boors really simple? Who finds them most repulsive? Are they half as pleased with themselves as they'd have us believe?