sub Philosophy :

[Kajira Callista]

I just hate seeing it get Hallmarkified and sold back to us, and I think it kind of is sometimes.

I love romance, but my dream date requires a little black dress with a subtle spatter of my victim's blood, not a pink chiffon prom gown.

The softness i spoke of and romance are not the same thing. I guess im not explaining it real well. *shrugs* And pretty to me is the same as your dream date pretty is.

 

[Kajira Callista]

"Winners go home and fuck the prom queen."

With the funnies aside Kajira, i can romance, seduce, subjugate, dominate, rake, rut, use, and destroy with the best. i, however, choose, and reserve that right to choose. i choose when, why, and how as i see fit. i will listen if she has concerns, wishes to match views, or simply wants to express what she needs.

She, however, doesn't have, nor can ever earn, the right to choose how i implement my craft. If that doesn't meet a submissive's desires, she has the right to walk away any time she chooses. The former implies, no, screams oxymoron for a D/s lifestyle.

I simply asked if i was understanding your statement correctly. Now im just more confused.
I shoulda added extra spaces between what i was asking you and the rest of what i was spewing i suppose.

 

[Netzach]

The softness i spoke of and romance are not the same thing. I guess im not explaining it real well. *shrugs* And pretty to me is the same as your dream date pretty is.

No, I got that from you. I wasn't disagreeing, more concurring.

 

[Kajira Callista]

No, I got that from you. I wasn't disagreeing, more concurring.

 

[bridgeburner]

KC

I don't understand how exactly you're defining your "submissive" because I don't really know what that means to you or what part of you that is. I know what the masochist is, but it's pretty clear just from the community here that submission means something different to everyone.

What I identify with is the part of every person that doesn't want to be truly betrayed, misused, maimed and discarded. I don't think that's a submissive or dominant part of a person --- that's the core identity. No Self wants to be anihilated at the whim of another.

Of course, I'm still unclear on exactly what it is that you're asking.

-B

 

[Kajira Callista]

KC

I don't understand how exactly you're defining your "submissive" because I don't really know what that means to you or what part of you that is. I know what the masochist is, but it's pretty clear just from the community here that submission means something different to everyone.

What I identify with is the part of every person that doesn't want to be truly betrayed, misused, maimed and discarded. I don't think that's a submissive or dominant part of a person --- that's the core identity. No Self wants to be anihilated at the whim of another.

Of course, I'm still unclear on exactly what it is that you're asking.

-B

Ok I'll give it a shot.
submissive me...shy , quiet, reserved, an almost unnatural desire to please others, little girl soul in a woman who has seen alot in lifes body, sometimes flighty, soft, sensual and extremely sensitive. forever frightened when not in a safe place. Her needs.. to please (usually everyone sometimes just one) to feel safe enough to show all of these things.
because of the need to please she allows ppl in to see the monster who is forever in need (maso-girl lol)
masochist me... someone submissive me needs someone else to control, the dark side, submissives evil twin sister in a sense. her needs? extreme pain etc.
My issue here is a personal one right now. I feel that maybe submissive me has no place in all of this, i feel like im losing her, and im thinking it might be better if i do.
What i was asking? I dont know if i was really asking anything, more trying to understand some stuff from a different point of view (which i didnt understand anyway) in an attempt to sort out the stuff in my head and find a happy medium. I know this is a BDSM forum and not a D/s or M/s one and probably not the best place to try and figure it all out, and i understand that alot of ppl think this is all fru-fru- girlie kinda stuff. But i've come to respect what alot of ppl here say and believe in so i asked...
Why is submission overlooked once you get through the door?
"because i can" would be the common answer im sure...and i accept and understand that more then most would believe...what im trying to understand goes past that. because i can?...my response would be..."but why do you want to"...i think in that answer is the answer to all thats in my head.
Bla...i dont know if this made anymore sense to you bridge, but i gave it my best shot.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

ahhh... this one calls to me

so I hope Writerdom doesn't consider it too much of a hijack. KC, I do so relate to what I think you've been saying. My sense is that

1. many of the Dom/mes here Would value that part of you, value that part in others, rather than wishing to destroy or ignore it. Though they might not indulge it as frequently as you or I might wish because of their own needs, perhaps, for some intimacy distance. (My dh gives me just enough to know I'm loved deep down).

2. it truely helps to be able to protect yourself -- including physically -- which makes some people more safe around you. They won't then try to toughen you up or something.

3. it may be hard to find someone who wants to go as rough as you need for painplay, who is also sensitive enough (or even enough of a non-sociopath -- sorry, not trying to flame anyone on the board, just recognizing that in the rl, the deep end of the pool has lots of troubling things in it) for the side that wants to and is fearful of submission to someone who might abuse that trust, or will scorn your love. (Gad, there's an online guy I used to know before I straigtened up whom I wish I could intro you to, way too hardcore for me in where he I think wanted to go, but a very sensitive charmer on the other side. 'course who can tell that much online, i guess.) just babbling, sorry.

4.why Can't we talk about D/s on this board? Thought it was for that, too? Mistaken?

5. sounds like dishonesty and a trick if they were using your s to get to your m.

6. the need for some of us to serve, please, adore is what some Dom/mes want and others want in a diff style. (I adore adoring, it's right up there with begging to beg.)

7. I got the feeling this is an important part of you and she would be deeply mourned if you try to put her away.

 

[bridgeburner]

Thanks, KC, I think maybe I get it --- if I'm wrong don't hesitate to point it out. I'm occasionally dense, but generally well-intentioned.

Why is submission overlooked once you get through the door?

I haven't noticed anyone promoting this, but the perception that it has been might be laid at my feet. I was a bit snarky in my initial post and perhaps I should explain myself a bit.

I'm not at all opposed to romance and softer sentiments. I love that stuff, but mainly in the specific. In the abstract when someone is waxing rhapsodic over the beauteousness and holiness and supercalifragilistickexpialadociousness of whatever particular mindset s/he has I tend to get a little....well, firfy, ya know?

I think that between the involved parties any amount of emotion or any philosophy or construct they want to adopt and espouse is great. I'm happy if there are people who are feeling fullfilled and ecstatic about their encounters with others. What I get tired of is the kind of over-used New-Agey yoni-lingam religiosity of sentiment that can crop up around any kind of discussion about relationships but especially sexual relationships.

It's the tendency of some to make sweeping pronouncements about whole groups of people Doms, subs, Tops, bottoms, Gays, Lesbians, Men, Women etc. and I don't find that they generally hold much weight. All subs do not feel the same way nor do they have the same needs. Likewise every other person on the planet. All people who practice BDsM don't feel the same way about it but I have noticed that those who subscribe to the more flowery mystical union side of it tend to be more judgemental about those who don't. They have rules which reflect their values and rather than recognizing that they have different values they deem that anyone who doesn't share their values is dangerous, or unbalanced or just plain old not doing it right.

So, that's a long roundabout way of saying that I just didn't like the tone of the original quotation as it applied to everyone in general. That's a fine way for her to feel and believe within the context of her own life but it's not a philosophy that I would embrace. It's not a brand of submission or dominance that appeals to me and I think it's a bit arrogant to "should" all over other people's sexuality.

As for you, I hope you get every single thing you want in the best way possible to satisfy all parts of you. I'm not big on kicking any major parts of the psyche to the kerb without seriously investigating all other possibilities. Pettiness, extreme narcissism, sure, those things aren't terribly useful, but real needs? I don't think they should ever just be dismissed.


-B

 

[Kajira Callista]

that question/statement doesnt apply to everyone...it applies to me personally. As for the flowery romance stuff...keep it, not for me. It has to be something im doing to make it happen repeatedly...which is why i picked here to discuss it. Thinking if i got the whole picture i could figure out what it was that was becoming a huge issue in my life.
Im guessing its like im speaking a different language right now. I dont know how to express whats going on in my head or why...i thought i could but i cant. sorry for twisting the thread up like this WD.

 

[bridgeburner]

Man, what wouldn't I give to be sitting in a cafe with KC and PS right now chewing through all of this. We could just sit in a little circle, extend right hands to left shoulders of the woman next to us and do a little orgy of Vulcan Mind-Meld.


KC, I think Phoenix has a valid point about those at various extremes of the different spectrums. They're not all nuts, but it's sometimes hard to tell which ones are sanely extreme enough. Who's a tough guy because he's strong and who's a tough guy because he's a bully? What makes it worse is that the true wackos have something of a nose for those with semi-compatible needs.



-B

 

[Kajira Callista]

Man, what wouldn't I give to be sitting in a cafe with KC and PS right now chewing through all of this. We could just sit in a little circle, extend right hands to left shoulders of the woman next to us and do a little orgy of Vulcan Mind-Meld.


KC, I think Phoenix has a valid point about those at various extremes of the different spectrums. They're not all nuts, but it's sometimes hard to tell which ones are sanely extreme enough. Who's a tough guy because he's strong and who's a tough guy because he's a bully? What makes it worse is that the true wackos have something of a nose for those with semi-compatible needs.



-B

funny thing is i think in the past i had a keener (is that a word) sense then i do now, im begining to think that judgment is impaired by need and sub me is getting the short end of the stick on a regular basis because of it. Still working it out.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Man, what wouldn't I give to be sitting in a cafe with KC and PS right now chewing through all of this. We could just sit in a little circle, extend right hands to left shoulders of the woman next to us and do a little orgy of Vulcan Mind-Meld.
-B

 

[GoodGurlGoneBad]

someone sent this to me and gave me permission to post it for comments.



My Philosophy :
I believe that one must be secure, emotionally strong and healthy in order to truly embrace this lifestyle without adverse effects and with true joy._ I think that many younger subs become burned out and emotionally spent because they do not pace themselves and do not fully understand the art and the gift of submission._ That is why older subs are so much more enticing and rich to possess....the surrender is more complete and more enriched. To surrender oneself is to truly be free and alive._ To give control to another is liberating, intoxicating and invigorating.__ The gift of surrender should only be given to one's equal and to one worthy.__ TO many subs give away their gift to quickly and to too many Dom's, thus diminishing their gift.
The balance and dance of D/s is subtle, sublime and serene._ There is not another such relationship that can compare._ The heights are beyond anything imagined........it is addictive and becomes part of your body, your needs, your being, and can not be denied for long before it screams out to be recognized.
I know, because I tried to deny it for too long. I can not anymore....I must admit, and submit....to submission

First, thank you and the one who wrote it for sharing this.

To some degree I agree with what it had to say, but I also think that most of the "burn out" is not because a newly inducted submissive doesn't pace themselves, but refuses to educate themselves. Yes, I can say that, I did it years ago (nearly 17 now to be exact). I simply wanted and got what I didn't expect and lived for 2 years fearful of my own life because I did not allow myself to educate myself. BUT! On the other hand, (always the devil's advocate needs to step in) The "dominante" (yes in quotes and yes, like submissives, not all are what they say they are) is also responsible for educating the new submissive. It's all hand in hand and education, knowledge is the key to having a nurturing, growing fondness, lust and love for the lifestyle. Just my opinion ...

 

[shy slave]

funny thing is i think in the past i had a keener (is that a word) sense then i do now, im begining to think that judgment is impaired by need and sub me is getting the short end of the stick on a regular basis because of it. Still working it out.

Sometimes our judgement is impaired because it is protecting our emotions from being hurt...again.

As for your sub side getting the short end of the stick ~ when you feel able to trust your judgement you will be able to give the sub side the attention it deserves.
No-one can do everything at once.
Relationships are complicated enough, everyone is a mixed bag of so much.
Link this thread to the 'darkest fears' thread and it can be seen we all have differing needs but similiar insecurities.

KC don't change. Your posts can be amusing, thought-provoking or damn right confusing but they are all facets of you

I hope you can find the balance you are looking ...and soon

In response to the orginal quote.
I thought it was too over-the-top; offensive to younger subs who are lucky enough to realise, and, be brave enough to explore.
Insulting to older subs who may have little experience (*holds own hand up) but due to their age it is a better gift - 'Humph' is my only reply.

A personal view is the more stuff like this the more BDSM is seen as odd. freakish and weird.
Many vanilla relationships are refered to in this way, including vanilla relationships that pledge a tradional union ie marriage. Poems, writings, drawings etc, regarding vanilla relationships, for centuries focus on equals, worthiness, giving away gifts (virginity, first love) and all consuming heights of passion.

IMHO D/s is similiar to vanilla in the way people feel for each other, regardless of how they show that.
In vanilla she lays flat on her back and works out the shopping list as he gives it his best shot. In D/s she is tied to the St Andrews Cross or caged up working out the shopping list while he gives it his best shot.
Very little difference really
(apologies to all those who are not in a male Dom, female sub relationship. My sense of humour can be a little odd at times).

WD i usually love your writing but this doesn't seem like one of yours hidden in different guise.

I appreciate the sentiments of the writing were meaningful for that person. I now feel a bit mean that I have been critical of it. After all this person could be the next great poet of our times. However it still does not suit my taste for expression of submission.

Easy to be critical when I have not ventured to put my own thoughts in writing ;(

 

[A Desert Rose]

... WD i usually love your writing but this doesn't seem like one of yours hidden in different guise....

WD takes credit for his own writing. This isn't his. It was sent to him by someone else.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Sometimes our judgement is impaired because it is protecting our emotions from being hurt...again.

As for your sub side getting the short end of the stick ~ when you feel able to trust your judgement you will be able to give the sub side the attention it deserves.
No-one can do everything at once.
Relationships are complicated enough, everyone is a mixed bag of so much.
Link this thread to the 'darkest fears' thread and it can be seen we all have differing needs but similiar insecurities.

KC don't change. Your posts can be amusing, thought-provoking or damn right confusing but they are all facets of you

I hope you can find the balance you are looking ...and soon

In response to the orginal quote.
I thought it was too over-the-top; offensive to younger subs who are lucky enough to realise, and, be brave enough to explore.
Insulting to older subs who may have little experience (*holds own hand up) but due to their age it is a better gift - 'Humph' is my only reply.

A personal view is the more stuff like this the more BDSM is seen as odd. freakish and weird.
Many vanilla relationships are refered to in this way, including vanilla relationships that pledge a tradional union ie marriage. Poems, writings, drawings etc, regarding vanilla relationships, for centuries focus on equals, worthiness, giving away gifts (virginity, first love) and all consuming heights of passion.

IMHO D/s is similiar to vanilla in the way people feel for each other, regardless of how they show that.
In vanilla she lays flat on her back and works out the shopping list as he gives it his best shot. In D/s she is tied to the St Andrews Cross or caged up working out the shopping list while he gives it his best shot.
Very little difference really
(apologies to all those who are not in a male Dom, female sub relationship. My sense of humour can be a little odd at times).

WD i usually love your writing but this doesn't seem like one of yours hidden in different guise.

I appreciate the sentiments of the writing were meaningful for that person. I now feel a bit mean that I have been critical of it. After all this person could be the next great poet of our times. However it still does not suit my taste for expression of submission.

Easy to be critical when I have not ventured to put my own thoughts in writing ;(

I dont mean to be confusing, sometimes i find it easier to unwrap a layer at a time...if someone understands what im trying to say, then i can stop unwrapping. *shrug*

 

[Phoenix Stone]

either it then becomes something magical, as thier eyes widen & that look of wonder crosses thier face.. or they pass over it, apparently dissapointed, & the gift, no matter how much i've worked on it... seems like garbage.

I SO know what you mean. About anything that reveals your real vulnerable inner self. Thank you for posting this.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Ot

I dont mean to be confusing, sometimes i find it easier to unwrap a layer at a time...if someone understands what im trying to say, then i can stop unwrapping. *shrug*

KC, I don't recall finding any of your posts confusing. Whether someone's posts confuse me or not seems to be less a function of how, or how well they write, and more a question of how well They come through to me. Have you found that true for you?

 

[Kajira Callista]

And thats my issue....why give the "gift "(i hate that word btw) if it is just going to be passed over anyway? Easier to just toss in the trash yourself.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Re: Ot

KC, I don't recall finding any of your posts confusing. Whether someone's posts confuse me or not seems to be less a function of how, or how well they write, and more a question of how well They come through to me. Have you found that true for you?

Yes...it seems the more you read posted by a person the more accustomed to thier writing style you get and the understanding of thier posts tends to go deeper.

 

[barcaboy]

A note in defense of young/inexperienced subs.

Maybe it's the teacher/clerical genes I inherited, but this Dom truly enjoys playing with novices. Passing on knowledge in the service of self-discovery is a treat in itself, whose success lives in that "widening of eyes". A different joy than connecting with someone at a similar level of awareness and expertise, but a great and rewarding challenge and a lofty trust.

My wanna-be actor side also laps up the plaudits of newbies like a parched retriever, but that's strictly a side benefit.

Perhaps my care and interest here has to do with the fact that my first BDSM experience, as a sub, was horrific. But that's a tale for another time.


BTW, I do find it a little curious that, with all the discussion in the D/s world on the all-consuming, intoxicating wonders of subbing, there is so little about the experiential joys of Domming.

Because Dom/mes are expected to be elusive pedestal-dwellers of infinite mystery? Because submission is really a deeper, more rewarding spiritual experience than Dominance? Or because submission requires more verbal defense and self-justification?

Or is it because subs are just brighter and more articulate?

Not to even think of stirring up controversy.

 

[Kajira Callista]

A note in defense of young/inexperienced subs.

Maybe it's the teacher/clerical genes I inherited, but this Dom truly enjoys playing with novices. Passing on knowledge in the service of self-discovery is a treat in itself, whose success lives in that "widening of eyes". A different joy than connecting with someone at a similar level of awareness and expertise, but a great and rewarding challenge and a lofty trust.

My wanna-be actor side also laps up the plaudits of newbies like a parched retriever, but that's strictly a side benefit.

Perhaps my care and interest here has to do with the fact that my first BDSM experience, as a sub, was horrific. But that's a tale for another time.


BTW, I do find it a little curious that, with all the discussion in the D/s world on the all-consuming, intoxicating wonders of subbing, there is so little about the experiential joys of Domming.

Because Dom/mes are expected to be elusive pedestal-dwellers of infinite mystery? Because submission is really a deeper, more rewarding spiritual experience than Dominance? Or because submission requires more verbal defense and self-justification?

Or is it because subs are just brighter and more articulate?

Not to even think of stirring up controversy.

That would be an interesting new thread to start...i for one would like to see what is posted there.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Slice

BTW, I do find it a little curious that, with all the discussion in the D/s world on the all-consuming, intoxicating wonders of subbing, there is so little about the experiential joys of Domming.

Not to even think of stirring up controversy.

Read more, stir less.

 

[Esclava]

I have lurked in this thread and considered posting (many times) for at least a month. It calls many aspects of my own life into a brighter light than I'm comfortable with.

Thank you all for your input...I will return when I have sorted things out for myself.

Esclava

 

[MissTaken]

I have lurked in this thread and considered posting (many times) for at least a month. It calls many aspects of my own life into a brighter light than I'm comfortable with.

Thank you all for your input...I will return when I have sorted things out for myself.

Esclava

Best wishes, esclava.