Submission and Masochism are not interchangable terms

[rosco rathbone]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Submission and Masochism are not interchangable terms

What is it?

I'd say it's to feel tough and feel like you proved yourself and be proud you did it.

Well, that's how masochism functions for me. Pain doesn't make me wet.

Er, you are proving my point there. You aren't a sub or a masochist.

 

[Netzach]

Pain doesn't make me wet but I still like it sometimes.

So I'm just a crusty tough nuts?

 

[rosco rathbone]

Pain doesn't make me wet but I still like it sometimes.

So I'm just a crusty tough nuts?

Yup. It doesn't "make you wet", ie you do not sexualize it. We crusties "need" pain because we know that only a painful world offers challenges to our spirit.

 

[evesdream]

Not to de-rail the thread, but it might help with the hair-splitting. I don't consider myself a pain masochist, it's secondary and doesn't excite me. Usually it's what the person on the holding end is doing with my pain that knocks me down (so to speak). ah, how my pain affects the other person.

I doubt that acceptance of pain can be one of the indicators to clearly differentiate between sub, dom or switch ways of being. That's because I doubt that pain means the same thing between anyone, and the meanings overlap all over the place.

Yes I do know a maso dom or two, but their masochism as far as I can tell isn't as far from my own as all that.

 

[Etoile]

I'm not sure, but I think my Master is a masochist. He has eight tats, four peircings and two of them are prince alberts. He says he likes needles too.

Body modification, while a truly lovely habit, doesn't really seem like evidence of masochism to me. I see it more like "suffering for art" if that makes sense.

Wait a minute, two PA's?!

 

[Etoile]

I'd kind of like to add a little more to the discussion. I was in a discussion at butch-femme.com where this was said:

It is so important to take each label individually, and not assume that Butch=Top, or bottom=submissive.

This confused me, so I asked the post's author to explain. She said:

To me, bottom is a term that describes a sexual preference, whereas submissive is a term that describes a socioemotional state of being. You are right when you say that the two are often connected, but I feel that they are still separate states of being. A "bottom" may not consider themselves a submissive, and a submissive person may not always "bottom".

What are our lovely Litsters' opinions on this? Does it really tie into a "dominant masochist" discussion? If not I can go start my own thread, but this thread reminded me of that comment.

 

[SubmissiveDove5]

Yup, two pa's! I remember my reation when he told me that; I said, "Didn't that hurt?" His reply was, "yeah, it hurt like hell!"

I don't know, all I could come up with in my mind was, "If it hurt like hell, why put yourself through the pain?" That's just me though. Apparently he thinks differently, lol.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Yup, two pa's! I remember my reation when he told me that; I said, "Didn't that hurt?" His reply was, "yeah, it hurt like hell!"

I don't know, all I could come up with in my mind was, "If it hurt like hell, why put yourself through the pain?" That's just me though. Apparently he thinks differently, lol.

Following up on the RR/Netzach duel above, did you ask him if it got him wet?

 

[Phoenix Stone]

I'd kind of like to add a little more to the discussion. I was in a discussion at butch-femme.com where this was said:

This confused me, so I asked the post's author to explain. She said:

What are our lovely Litsters' opinions on this? Does it really tie into a "dominant masochist" discussion? If not I can go start my own thread, but this thread reminded me of that comment.

hmm, I'm interested. Here or on another thread. At first read, which may be the correct one, it seems I'm a bottom but not a sub. But it's hard for me to separate out the sexual from the socio-emotional when it comes to my primary relationship.

With others this sexual vs. s-e makes it easier to understand myself (thank you Etoile). Other than with my husband, I'm a bottom (or switch) and NOT submissive. In other words, only when flirting/playing is it fun to submit for me (or will flirt in a switchy way). Otherwise, non-sexually, with others, I will fight like hell against submitting, find ways to get around it, etc. I like to Learn, so don't feel like I have to 'win' all the time, but I don't 'get off on' submitting in a socio-em way (that is non-sexual.)
But with my husband, I'm not so sure. Switchy in both? I've gotten into socio-em subbing with him some, and enjoy it. Not neccesarily Good at it, but recognizing it and how I'm going about it, has been a good thing. Ironically, I'm simultaneously becoming more comfortable with being as Domme-ish outside our house as I'd like to be. Or maybe not so ironic.

So how about the public-private dichotomy?

 

[SubmissiveDove5]

Nope, can't say that I asked him if it made him wet. I might be a little too shy to ask him that yet. I probably will have to find out for myself, (grin)

 

[Netzach]

2 PA's -- still a masochist, whether you wind up with rings or not.

Doesn't mean he wants to go see some lady for the Netzach treatment, just means he might keep going back to the piercer.

There's a lot of different outlets for those looking for endorphins.

I definitely don't think you have to be submissive to be a bottom. I think everyone here is looking at this as a power-exchange person, not as a painplayer. A painplayer will see being a bottom as neutrally as a baseball player will see being a second baseman or a lawyer will see being an arbitrator rather than a tax attorney. It's just a vantage point, you just happen to prefer being poked with sharp objects and if someone insists that you defer to them because they like to poke, you think "fuck you."

 

[catalina_francisco]

said:

What are our lovely Litsters' opinions on this? Does it really tie into a "dominant masochist" discussion? If not I can go start my own thread, but this thread reminded me of that comment.

Not sure at this point though I am personally researching hands on at the moment. I tend to think of bottoms as often possibly less into the sexual aspects of it than the submissive, but that is only from my limited observations for now. Same goes with the 'submissive top' or to a lesser extent the 'masochistic top' situation. Used to struggle with the concept but it seems so clear to me now. Just one of the many reasons I love the discussions here....they encourage growth and learning if you open yourself to the idea and experience.

Catalina

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Bump

Out of the rusty, dusty past.

 

[chatbug]

Would anyone care to comment?

Does anyone have experience with masochistic Dominants or Dominant masochists?

Does anyone think I am talking out my hat?

Nope.

It's possible for a person to be both sadistic and masochistic. In my opinion, domination, submission, sadism, and masochism are four different continuums. A person could have no desires in any area (vanilla), or have desires in all four areas.

Describing myself, I can be dominant, don't enjoy submission, can be very sadistic, and slighly masochistic.

 

[John Doe]

They may not be interchangeable, but they sure go together pretty well.

 

[Richard49]

I have no idea how I missed this orginally
but
WOW !!!!!!!

again we see the destictions between Dom(me)/submissive/top/bottom/sado/masc
etc

it is not hair spliting
it is communicating with some accuracy

 

[catalina_francisco]

I have no idea how I missed this orginally
but
WOW !!!!!!!

again we see the destictions between Dom(me)/submissive/top/bottom/sado/masc
etc

it is not hair spliting
it is communicating with some accuracy

Defining can often bring about so much simplicity and happiness in the long term.

Catalina

 

[Richard49]

Defining can often bring about so much simplicity and happiness in the long term.

Catalina

oh baby
ya got it

and defining does not exclude anyone

 

[Pure]

demurrer

[Concerning the claim:]
Submission and Masochism are not interchangable terms

Quote:
Originally posted by rosco rathbone
mhm.

get out of here with that hair splitting. I never met a non-masochistic sub or a non-submissive masochist. Not once you cracked the bullshit shell and exposed the living girlmeat within.

maybe guys are different.


if i understand you, you're saying there's no real diff for women. i would largely agree for serious/deep submission; witness the lead character in the movie "The Piano Teacher." But for the type of 'submission-lite', growth-oriented, two-equal-spirits stuff we hear of, things may be different.

as for guys. any good bio of Sade, among others, will show you a dominant masochist (or at least, lover of pain). the man wanted and got some serious flogging.

 

[rosco rathbone]

["The Piano Teacher."

That and the one about the Nazis are the two movies everyone keeps telling me I have to see.

 

[phoenixstone]

Wow, Pure is here -- and Rosco is doing an oh so much more -- what's the right word? -- relevant? Av. Total hi-jack: it's really weird to come back and read my own words from almost two years ago. Back when I had a face.

...And what the hell was I talking about? Doesn't sound like me but doesn't seem like DH's m.o. -- too pseudo-intellectual. Well, lah di dah and fiddle-dee-dee. Don't feel comfortable posting on board anymore cuz he Reads them!

Back to topic: so what's wrong with just calling onesself a switch and being done with it? Is there a deep concern with whether one can be a 'Real Dom/me' and still like pain? Me, I'm probably subbie-with-an-attitude (so personna non grata, no? Subbies not supposed to have attitude. Bad subbie. Yeah, yeah, sammie) but if, according to RR, one can't be subbie w/o maso, then I guess just poor, substitute wimpy-sub, here. Oh so incorrect all the way around. Very sensitive to pain. Only like some kinds. picky subbie -- even more not ok. Better reception if say you are switch. More latitude for 'bad behavior.' and why am I using this weird accent? hm. Not likely real switch, because I don't like to dish it out, just take it. Tried, and I get bored.

Oh well, no one around who wants to hear my opinions, anyway. Just writing for 'posterity.' ;> Ya lose creds when you can't be on board a lot. Ok, so just put me on ignore or whatever. I'm in a mood -- but not really a troll. (Sort of sticking to subject, and I haven't insulted anyone yet, have I? Guess I'll go masturbate -- it's sort of what I'm doing anyway in words. Now that's a troll-like thing to say, eh?) Hi to anyone who knows me from before. I've deteriorated, haven't I? No, it's not a new writer, just the old one, tired, burnt-out and feeling generally sorry for herself for no good reason.



And i want my av back, too.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I think you just need a good over the knee spanking. That might make you type less words.

 

[Pure]

the Night Porter? (other movie)

it's on my list

 

[rosco rathbone]

the Night Porter? (other movie)

it's on my list

Yes, everyone is like "you haven't seen that yet????"