Submission.. should it be done blindly?

[serijules]

*FYI -

The "big dealness" comment is not meant as a reflection of anyone who does take the symbolism of collars seriously; I do respect the commitment it takes to wear one.

I should have footnoted that I am at a place in life where I feel no desire to wear a collar (play, permanent, whatever), just as I feel no desire to be married again or wear a wedding ring. I'm either committed to someone or I'm not. A piece of metal, strip of leather, etc won't change that for me. I've already discussed this with John [Master Darling™], actually, and explained that if he someday feels some intense desire to put a collar on me [to signify my place in his life], I'll most likely turn it down. lol

Oh I didn't take it that way at all, I put it in "s because of making up a word lol. I just wanted to note that as it was the only thing in your post that I didn't agree with, so to speak. Collars and the value they hold is definitely a personal road.

 

[unfoundiamond]

It depends...

It depends what we are talking about...

I doubt proffessional Dom/mes allow (or care to have) all this time to spend getting to know every detail as to the life stories of their pyl(s)... Its more a relationship based on supply and demand, The pyl has a need, and seeks out a PYL on a professional level more to satisfy the need than to be their "partner" in life... so in that sence I think safety precautions(like safeword) are a good idea, but I have a feeling (and like NET said) those pyl's have done it all (figuratively)

But I also think playing with someone who is a professional, and being in a D/s relationship (live in, collared... 24/7) is a very diffrent level of commitment...

I would definately trust a professional faster than a random person who considers themself Dom/me...
Like I'd let a professional mechanic I didn't know as well change my oil before handing my keys to the guy down the street kind of thing...
This is based on reputation and expirience.

I dunno... I'd need more info to form a opinion...

 

[Netzach]

It depends what we are talking about...

I doubt proffessional Dom/mes allow (or care to have) all this time to spend getting to know every detail as to the life stories of their pyl(s)... Its more a relationship based on supply and demand, The pyl has a need, and seeks out a PYL on a professional level more to satisfy the need than to be their "partner" in life... so in that sence I think safety precautions(like safeword) are a good idea, but I have a feeling (and like NET said) those pyl's have done it all (figuratively)

But I also think playing with someone who is a professional, and being in a D/s relationship (live in, collared... 24/7) is a very diffrent level of commitment...

I would definately trust a professional faster than a random person who considers themself Dom/me...
Like I'd let a professional mechanic I didn't know as well change my oil before handing my keys to the guy down the street kind of thing...
This is based on reputation and expirience.

I dunno... I'd need more info to form a opinion...

This all makes sense. I can add that some of the more satisfying lifestyle encounters I've had were about as complicated without cash changing hands -"show up and do as I say" being the level of negotiation needed in those moments. Yeah, I had no plan on collaring or living with those people. I don't understand what the collar aspect really has to do with the question - "would you blindly marry the next person who asks" might be analagous if you add that level to it.

But would you obey a more or less stranger - well it's something we do all the time socially, unless that person proves unpleasant or wrong or dumb.

As many times as I've ever bottomed, as much play as I've ever gotten and get with my Bull on the bottom I've *always* seen it as the gift I give myelf - as an avenue to explore my own drives, not as something I gift him with. I know that it's ultra exciting to have someone you actually love and respect on their knees before you, as does he - that bit goes without saying.

 

[Marquis]

I have a question; should a pyl be expected to submit blindly to the first PYL that wants to collar him or her?

I would expect maybe that in the Gorean world that would be the way of it w/o question but what about the non-Gorean world?

First off, I want to mention that, on my screen, your location is not truncated and causes your post to be scrunched up in the right corner of my screen. Not sure if this is intentional, but it makes your posts difficult to read.


As for your question:

"should a pyl be expected to submit blindly to the first PYL that wants to collar him or her?"

This seems like a standard lit question, which are all basically parallels to the age old "Do these jeans make me look fat?"

While something of a loaded question with a cookie cutter response expected, and usually, dutifully delivered; I'm going to attempt to say something about this anyway.

No, obviously a pyl should not be expected to submit blindly to the first PYL that wants to collar him or her. It's a fanciful idea, and one my imagination can have fun with, though. I imagine it operating something like this:

Once a person claims to be a sub, the must immediately begin submitting to whoever demands it first. Prospective dominants roam the fetish parties and message boards like this one, just waiting for the word to be uttered, upon which is a mad dash to the submissive in question, like ovary-bound sperm racing through the fallopian tube.

It's a little sad that reality is similar enough to this metaphor that threads like this actually exist.

But in any case, to make a long story short, I do expect submissives to submit. There's not nearly enough of that going on in the D/s world. For every one submissive being told she should just shut her fucking trap and submit, there are a thousand dominants being told they are controlling, manipulative, abusive man-whores with great teeth.

 

[Caitlynne]

I have some really ambivalent feelings about this question. I mean of course you don't go around bowing and scraping to every Dominant who say's kneel, especially [and I don't understand the collar reference either] if it's someone who is trying to put a collar around your neck.

BUT....

A sub has one choice. OK, maybe two. She makes the decision to submit, and if and when the time comes [and her Dom hasn't kicked her to the curb] she makes the decision to leave. Everything in between is not in a subs control. Once you submit, it is sort of blind, so a sub better pay attention to that choice to submit.

I'm going to take the original question literally and give an answer. Or as literally as it can be taken. If a sub is offered a collar and she accepts, then she should submit blindly. If she rejects it, well then she's not submitting to anything now is she--blind or otherwise.

In the reality of a D/s relationship [not just play] if you're getting offered a collar [as opposed to begging for it yourself] you've been around each other enough for the Dom to know what s/he wants and you've been around long enough to know if what he wants is what you want. It's called compatibility.

Course all of the above is moot if the original question meant a collar being offered by a complete stranger. Then, the question would not be whether or not to submit, but whether or not the Dom was sane. There are some crazy subs out there folks, I'd check it out before you go around offering collars.

One last comment on the "My submission is a gift". Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure it is, but let me tell you something, to me, domination is the real gift. So the real question is; "is it a gift to offer to serve another, or is it a gift to be allowed to serve?"

 

[nh23]

I have some really ambivalent feelings about this question. I mean of course you don't go around bowing and scraping to every Dominant who say's kneel, especially [and I don't understand the collar reference either] if it's someone who is trying to put a collar around your neck.

BUT....

A sub has one choice. OK, maybe two. She makes the decision to submit, and if and when the time comes [and her Dom hasn't kicked her to the curb] she makes the decision to leave. Everything in between is not in a subs control. Once you submit, it is sort of blind, so a sub better pay attention to that choice to submit.

I'm going to take the original question literally and give an answer. Or as literally as it can be taken. If a sub is offered a collar and she accepts, then she should submit blindly. If she rejects it, well then she's not submitting to anything now is she--blind or otherwise.

In the reality of a D/s relationship [not just play] if you're getting offered a collar [as opposed to begging for it yourself] you've been around each other enough for the Dom to know what s/he wants and you've been around long enough to know if what he wants is what you want. It's called compatibility.

Course all of the above is moot if the original question meant a collar being offered by a complete stranger. Then, the question would not be whether or not to submit, but whether or not the Dom was sane. There are some crazy subs out there folks, I'd check it out before you go around offering collars.

One last comment on the "My submission is a gift". Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure it is, but let me tell you something, to me, domination is the real gift. So the real question is; "is it a gift to offer to serve another, or is it a gift to be allowed to serve?"

Very well put!

 

[catalina_francisco]

So the real question is; "is it a gift to offer to serve another, or is it a gift to be allowed to serve?"

For me both are gifts to those who receive them. Personally I wouldn't actually offer to serve another without being invited, though I offered to make the transition to TPE when I felt I was ready and knowing it was the goal we had planned to reach anyway. One cannot be fully served and accept submission without submission being given, and one cannot fully submit and serve without the offer of dominance being given, nor dominance be offered and accepted to someone who does not accept it.

Catalina

 

[Caitlynne]

For me both are gifts to those who receive them. Personally I wouldn't actually offer to serve another without being invited, though I offered to make the transition to TPE when I felt I was ready and knowing it was the goal we had planned to reach anyway. One cannot be fully served and accept submission without submission being given, and one cannot fully submit and serve without the offer of dominance being given.

Catalina

I agree. It's the two sides of the one D/s coin. The often illusive and unattainable "power exchange".

 

[doveofserenity]

Unfortunately, I have allowed myself to swing the gambit in trust and I now find it hard to allow anyone into my heart. Even those who are trust worthy and deserving of my trust I find it difficult to extend faith. I hope to eventually learn to find the happy medium between these two poles and learn to trust the RIGHT man.

After being with a loving but stern Master, and and a jackass for an ex, i understand and agree with Gigi.

i could never fully give my trust and submit quickly to anyone. Until Him and i had time to get to know each other, O/our likes and dislikes and soft and hard limits...i just could never trust Him that quickly. The trust factor is a major part of any pyl's submission, and without that trust being complete; they risk their all. And life is worth a hell of a lot more than that.

 

[Netzach]

I agree. It's the two sides of the one D/s coin. The often illusive and unattainable "power exchange".

When we're talking about gift and value however, the conversation rests in a uniquely one-sided fashion though, I've found.

 

[Caitlynne]

When we're talking about gift and value however, the conversation rests in a uniquely one-sided fashion though, I've found.

Agreed. That's why I made my comments.

[mini rant] I sometimes find the emphasis on the 'gift of submission' to be a bit over blown exactly because we never seem to talk about the 'gift of domination'. Which BTW is why I shy away from calling any of it a 'gift' at all. Submissives submit. Dominants dominate. We pull and tug and we find the right fit and we carry on with our business. I don't see the purpose of talking about the 'great gift of submission'--even if it is a gift.

Does that make sense?

All the discussion around 'the gift of submission' seems to lose the whole power exchange emphasis. I mean what good is submission without the domination? They are so inextricably connected that you can't take one without the other. It falls flat on its face. Just try to submit to someone who 1] doesn't want it, and 2] who doesn't dominate and then tell me all about your happiness and fulfillment.

Unless your kink is to not be valued, it seems a given to talk about value and such. Dominants should take care of their toys and subs should feel a sense of value. It makes for compatibility etc. But that's a given in vanilla life too. I mean love is a gift, but you don't hear people droning on and on about "the gift of love" as much as we hear about 'the gift of submission'.

Maybe I'm just totally warped and damaged, but I think this whole concept is way out of balance. [/end mini rant]

 

[Netzach]

Agreed. That's why I made my comments.

[mini rant] I sometimes find the emphasis on the 'gift of submission' to be a bit over blown exactly because we never seem to talk about the 'gift of domination'. Which BTW is why I shy away from calling any of it a 'gift' at all. Submissives submit. Dominants dominate. We pull and tug and we find the right fit and we carry on with our business. I don't see the purpose of talking about the 'great gift of submission'--even if it is a gift.

Does that make sense?

All the discussion around 'the gift of submission' seems to lose the whole power exchange emphasis. I mean what good is submission without the domination? They are so inextricably connected that you can't take one without the other. It falls flat on its face. Just try to submit to someone who 1] doesn't want it, and 2] who doesn't dominate and then tell me all about your happiness and fulfillment.

Unless your kink is to not be valued, it seems a given to talk about value and such. Dominants should take care of their toys and subs should feel a sense of value. It makes for compatibility etc. But that's a given in vanilla life too. I mean love is a gift, but you don't hear people droning on and on about "the gift of love" as much as we hear about 'the gift of submission'.

Maybe I'm just totally warped and damaged, but I think this whole concept is way out of balance. [/end mini rant]

Thank you.

There's a lot of vulnerability on this end too. My submissives are getting access to me exactly as I am, raw, unedited, private, as other people do not ever see me. That's putting just as much on the line, but for some reason that's never acknowledged as a position of precariousness or danger, other than "be sure she doesn't change her mind and press charges."

 

[DeservingBitch]

Agreed. That's why I made my comments.

[mini rant] I sometimes find the emphasis on the 'gift of submission' to be a bit over blown exactly because we never seem to talk about the 'gift of domination'. Which BTW is why I shy away from calling any of it a 'gift' at all. Submissives submit. Dominants dominate. We pull and tug and we find the right fit and we carry on with our business. I don't see the purpose of talking about the 'great gift of submission'--even if it is a gift.

Does that make sense?

All the discussion around 'the gift of submission' seems to lose the whole power exchange emphasis. I mean what good is submission without the domination? They are so inextricably connected that you can't take one without the other. It falls flat on its face. Just try to submit to someone who 1] doesn't want it, and 2] who doesn't dominate and then tell me all about your happiness and fulfillment.

Unless your kink is to not be valued, it seems a given to talk about value and such. Dominants should take care of their toys and subs should feel a sense of value. It makes for compatibility etc. But that's a given in vanilla life too. I mean love is a gift, but you don't hear people droning on and on about "the gift of love" as much as we hear about 'the gift of submission'.

Maybe I'm just totally warped and damaged, but I think this whole concept is way out of balance. [/end mini rant]

I think what bothers me the most about this idea of submission (or love, or women's virginity) as a 'gift' is the one-way relationship that it implies. Sure, a gift is an exchange of 'something' from one person to another. But it's not something that exists *through* the relationship. While I can't talk about D/s from experience, I can say for sure that I would never talk about the love I *share* with someone as a 'gift'. Because share is the operative word here.

 

[madetotakeit]

Aside from the obvious safety issues, I could not imagine submitting blindly. There has to be a mental connection first. Before I could physically submit I have to find someone who can mentally dominate. I need to feel that the trust and connection is there. To me even if the PYL includes another PYL I would ultimately still be submissive to the primary as it would be His wishes that I submit to the Second. Capture the mind and the body follows. I have talked to many PYL (both apparently real and obviously fake) who made me roll my eyes at their attempts to make me submit. Maybe it is my stubborn streak, or maybe that there is a very short list of people I allow access to my mind or my body.

 

[snowy ciara]

I have a question; should a pyl be expected to submit blindly to the first PYL that wants to collar him or her?

I would expect maybe that in the Gorean world that would be the way of it w/o question but what about the non-Gorean world?

No. But the perception exists anyway, that a submissive must blindly say yes and go neck (or belly) up for the first PYL who tells her too. This attitude appears to be most prevalent on chat sites, (especially the Gorean ones) and certain singles sites (like, say, Collarme?). I feel the on line "blind submission" myth goes hand in hand with the "velcro collar" thing, which is hardly ever seen in an offline venue. And when a submissive says "thanks but no thanks" her submission is called into question, as if having sufficient knowledge of what she needs or wants and the ability to protect her own safety is somehow unsubmissive. Eventually someone plays the "true submissive" or "true Dominant" card. I'll be honest; when some one starts qualifying their kink orientation or lifestyle choices as "true" my bullshit sensor immediately goes into Defcon 3 at least. Depending on how jerky they are about it, it generally hits Defcon 1 in short order. The "true submissive" who throws her neck into the first collar that is offered is a romantic ideal that isn't necessarily true to life.

I asked a Dominant if he'd accept blind submission (since I already knew Ms T's take on the matter. It's a no go for her.) and he said that he's not interested in a public utility, the kind of pyl that anyone can have. It's not attractive to him. His submissive was very select in who she played with, who she dated and ultimately who collared her. He doesn't really respect the ones who wander around the club, trying to get someone, anyone to fling a collar around their neck and use them. He finds them to be "game players, who can talk the talk, but as soon as it becomes non-romantic (as in, someone's got to empty the kitty litter box) or a whole lot of work, bail on the relationship." Now that they're in a relationship, there is an element of blindness to it, where she does not question his dominance. But if she had been the type to accept the first collar thrust at her, she wouldn't be his. Not just because someone did offer it before him, but because he doesn't want that sort of pyl.

Actually, I DO know the first person who offered it to her. That person offered it to me, too, the first time I met him. He goes through women like toilet paper. It never works out, and it's always her fault, as if he didn't have this unrealistic expectation of some Gorean fantasy living in downtown Tulsa, just waiting for a Master to come up on a black Harley and take her. It's very sad, really.

Anyway, I don't really ponder the whole "blind submission" thing, because I know it's not an accurate reality for me, or most people. I try not write off the sort of PYL who expects this, if they're new to the bdsm world. But if they've been around for some time and are still looking for it, I kind of feel that their grasp on the real world is not what it should be and act accordingly. That's just me, and my opinion, though.

If I may expand the questions further (if not, let me know Chris and I'll do another thread) I wonder something else. PYLs, if you knew a pyl who was obviously looking to blindly submit regardless of how well you knew her or if you had any idea of compatibility, would you offer a collar? Does this appeal to you?

 

[Caitlynne]

Thank you.

You're very welcome.

There's a lot of vulnerability on this end too. My submissives are getting access to me exactly as I am, raw, unedited, private, as other people do not ever see me. That's putting just as much on the line, but for some reason that's never acknowledged as a position of precariousness or danger, other than "be sure she doesn't change her mind and press charges."

Exactly. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[WriterDom]

Every sub I have had was a stranger at some point. Usually they start things off by contacting me. Do they promise me their heart, mind, and soul the first day? No. But the dance starts right away. If it works for both of us we'll meet in 6 to 8 weeks. If it's not working it usually fades on its own.

I have had a few call me Master in the first conversation. Those are the nuts I stay away from.

Most pyls who have been around the block a few times have pretty good instincts about who to meet and who not to meet.

 

[Chris_Xavier]

If I may expand the questions further (if not, let me know Chris and I'll do another thread) I wonder something else. PYLs, if you knew a pyl who was obviously looking to blindly submit regardless of how well you knew her or if you had any idea of compatibility, would you offer a collar? Does this appeal to you?

You know that goes so well with what I started, if you want to hijack the thread go right ahead.

CX

 

[BiBunny]

If I may expand the questions further (if not, let me know Chris and I'll do another thread) I wonder something else. PYLs, if you knew a pyl who was obviously looking to blindly submit regardless of how well you knew her or if you had any idea of compatibility, would you offer a collar? Does this appeal to you?

For me, speaking as a PYL, no, not at all. I suppose it might appeal to PYLs who were just as clueless as the pyl, though. (Jesus, that's confusing!) Inexperience makes for odd bedfellows, to mangle a metaphor.

 

[Chris_Xavier]

I submitted to the first PYL who offered to collar me. Or more correctly I offered my submission to the first PYL who I knew was a PYL. However, we already were in a relationship for 5 months before I made the offer.

For me personally I can't imagine submitting to someone who I didn't get to know on a friendship level first, but that's just me and I am in my first and hopefully only D/s relationship so what do I know.

But was it because you wanted to submit or you felt compelled to submit simply because he was a Dom?

 

[intothewoods]

But was it because you wanted to submit or you felt compelled to submit simply because he was a Dom?

You're just not going to shed any light on this thread, are you?

 

[ecstaticsub]

But was it because you wanted to submit or you felt compelled to submit simply because he was a Dom?

I'm not sure if I really understand your question, but I'll give answering it a try--
I didn't identify him as a Dom when I met him. I met him on-line on a wifesharing board. After flirting and seeing each other on the board for a few months we started IMing and started having phone sex and a friendship. That's how the relationship began. Before I met him I had BDSM type of fantasies but didn't identify them as such. The thought of becoming a submissive or ever making any of the fantasies come true never entered my mind. But slowly over 5 months or so I shared my fantasies with him and he shared his past experiences with me. Then a situation came up (that I rather not get into on a public forum) and because of the place where our relationship was at the time I felt an overwhelming desire to make a commitment to him. I really didn't know much at all at the time what a real life D/s relationship was like. I knew about his past relationships and I knew how his mind worked. I also knew how he made me feel emotionally and sexually during our conversations. I wanted him to take control of me, I wanted to be owned. Whether he was a Dom or not, I wanted to make our relationship more formal.

Does this answer your question?

 

[Homburg]

If I may expand the questions further (if not, let me know Chris and I'll do another thread) I wonder something else. PYLs, if you knew a pyl who was obviously looking to blindly submit regardless of how well you knew her or if you had any idea of compatibility, would you offer a collar? Does this appeal to you?

It has happened to me. Twice in one night, actually. Happened since too. I was at the goth night that I occassionally attend with some friends (who are more goth than I and that isn't saying much), and in one night I had an earnest young man, and a cute young woman, both offer me their collars. The young man came up and offered verbally. The young lady kneeled and offered. I was dressed normally (khaki pants, dark green polo), had no fetish gear of any sort, and wasn't announcing anything. they just came up at different times and offered. Very weird. I explained to both that I was flattered, but was not looking. It is an answer that I've offered since as well.

In short, I'm not interested in someone that blindly offers themselves to me without knowing me. If they do that, that are playing to some idealised and romanticised version of yours truly. No thanks. I don't want the fallout that comes with the realisation that I am human, not whatever image they've constructed.

 

[Chris_Xavier]

In short, I'm not interested in someone that blindly offers themselves to me without knowing me. If they do that, that are playing to some idealised and romanticised version of yours truly. No thanks. I don't want the fallout that comes with the realisation that I am human, not whatever image they've constructed.

But do you think that a sub should submit to you just because you want her to?

 

[Homburg]

But do you think that a sub should submit to you just because you want her to?

Depends. Are you asking me, or my cock?

Me: Nope. Specifically not because of that reason. I want them to submit to me because they can do nothing other than submit. I want them to do so because their need to submit to me specifically eclipses other considerations.

My Cock: Bitches kneel! Bathe in the healing light of My Cock! Quake in Fear at My... etc, etc, etc...

Fortunately for me, the penis is largely only in control of it's own region, and little else. It has a vote in what goes on, sure, but control is maintained significantly higher in the body.